According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
Written by: FireTomWritten by: jeff(fake)
I have yet to hear a rational reason why an early embryo should possess a right to life at extremely early stages.
I support this question and would like to read a reasonable explanation...
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTom
But I am NOT propagating abortion - don't get me wrong on this one - I am not advising it at all. Personally I would (never again) abort *our* child, but I'd always respect the choice the mother is taking...
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Written by: Sethis
Also your point about crippled adults: We're talking about when it is ethical to abort, if ever. Not talking about adults.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: FiretomWritten by: jeff(fake)
I have yet to hear a rational reason why an early embryo should possess a right to life at extremely early stages.
I support this question and would like to read a reasonable explanation...
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: jeff(fake)
I have yet to hear a rational reason why an early embryo should possess a right to life at extremely early stages.
Written by: Patriarch917
I already explained why an embryo can be given a right to live under the values of humanism and moral relativism.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: jeff(fake)
Option B is the obvious one, since we can all agree (I assume) that sentient organisms have a moral right to exist. If you wish to debate that I suggest that you open a new thread or use PMs.Written by: FiretomWritten by: jeff(fake)
I have yet to hear a rational reason why an early embryo should possess a right to life at extremely early stages.
I support this question and would like to read a reasonable explanation...
Still waiting...
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
Written by: Sethis
Ah, Patriarch, I put in "Unconditionally" to try to avoid the blurred line problem. For reference, this is what I meant by "Unconditionally":
That they can survive without serious medical intervention i.e. they don't have to be put on a respirator, or have tubes stuck in them or other random life support stuff. Basically, if they were born then would they be able to survive like a normal full-term baby?
Note the use of the word "Normal" in that sentence. It means that a trip to hospital should not be necessary for the child's survival or prosperity. Only the presence of the parents.
So your point of test tubes is invalid...
Also your point about crippled adults: We're talking about when it is ethical to abort, if ever. Not talking about adults.
Written by: Kyrian
I don't suppose you'd care to say *why* you found my reasoning unreasonable?
Its more useful than just ignoring, you know.
Written by: Kyrian
My reason for supporting the embryo's right to life at early stages would be that its a unique individual, one we won't otherwise have in the world. Every life enriches the world, and changes it.
Written by: Patriarch917
To recap the position of humanism.
1. Moral rights come from the needs and interests of humans.
2. South Dakota has decided that their needs and interests demand that an embryo be given a right to live.
3. Therefore, according to humanism, embryos in South Dakota have a moral right to live.
Written by: Patriarch917
A reluctance to answer the question is understandable, since the choices seems to be either
1. There are moral absolutes that come from a source other than the needs and interests of humans.
2. The needs and interests of humans do not evolve, thus moral rights that come from them are absolute and never change.
3. When the needs and interests of humans change, moral rights change with them.
The first two contradict the fundamental principles of humanism. The third allows for the possibility that the changing needs and interests of humanity could possibly give an embryo the right to live.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: jeff(fake)
"This ruling doesn't enhance the humans within South Dakota's needs or interests."
"The South Dakota senate is wrong in this ruling for the reasons I've given in detail in my previous postings here."
Written by: jeff(fake)
"Number three ("When the needs and interests of humans change, moral rights change with them.") is bang on right."
"It's entirely possible that the human race and society could change in such a way that embryos would gain a moral right to life."
Written by: Patriarch917
Does this requirement of "no serious medical intervention" also apply to babies that are born premature, and require a stay in the hospital (including, sometimes, feeding tubes and a respirator) in order to grow into adulthood?
Written by: Patriarch917
Of course, there are also adults who need respirators and tubes in order to survive. Obviously, if this issue of medical intervention is truly dispositive then it will apply to all people who require serious medical intervention to survive. If you wish to advocate that all people who require serious medical intervention in order to survive have no right to life, that is a difficult claim (but one that has been accepted and advocated in the past).
Written by: Patriarch917
If the issue of medical intervention applies to babies in the womb, but not to premature biths or adults, that is proof that requiring medical intervention is not, by itself, truly something that makes a moral difference to you. There must be some additional factor that you have not stated that is actually the true justification.
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Written by: Patriarch917
For those who truly want to engage in a reasonable, serious discussion about whether a child (of any age) can have a moral right to life, let us approach the matter from the fundamental level and work are way up to the details.
First, let us ask some questions to get us started:
Question 1: What is the ultimate source of moral rights?
Suggested Possible Answers:
A. God is the source of moral rights. (the Bible, deism)
B. Moral rights come from the needs and interests of humans (Humanist Manifesto III)
C. Moral rights were created independent of humans, like the laws of physics. (Moral Naturalism)
D. There are no such things as moral rights (Materialism)
E. Other (Please summarize, if possible, in a sentence or two. Example "Moral rights come from the Light Side of the Force" or "Moral Rights come from the Constitution of the U.S.")
Question 2: Do moral rights change?
Suggested Possible Answers:
A. Moral rights do not change (Moral Absolutism).
B. Moral rights do change (Moral Relativism).
After answering these questions, we will be in a much better position to come up with a moral theory that we can then put to the test to see whether the particular moral right in question (the right of a child to live) can possibly come from such a source.
Written by: Patriarch917
E. Other (Please summarize, if possible, in a sentence or two. Example "Moral rights come from the Light Side of the Force" or "Moral Rights come from the Constitution of the U.S.")
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: Patriarch917
If onewheeldave is right, then you have the ability to create your own morality. However, he seems also to suggest that the people of South Dakota may also create their own morality that is different from yours. Even if you strongly believe what you say, surely you cannot fault them for deciding to create their morality in a different way?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: Patriarch917
The preemie is going to be a lot more trouble, more stressful, more expensive, less healthy, and every other justification that is commonly used for aborting the "fetus" that is in the other womb.
Are you up for it?
;)
Written by:
The position you described seems to say that if a child is born that can survive with medical attention, it has a right not to be killed. However, if that same child merely could be born and survive with medical attention, we can still kill it.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTom
I still lack the "mothers' right of self-determination" in the entire discussion here...
IMHO and I have pointed this out before: The right of the unborn child to live does not go over the life of the mother (who has to provide herself as the "breeding ground"), anything else I personally consider absurd - as absurd as argueing against or pro abortion on the grounds of religion. Period.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
Written by: Patriarch917
You seem to suggest that it would be ok to kill the fetus that is still in the womb, but not the fetus (now called a preemie) that is in the NICU. Why is it not also ok to kill the one in the NICU?
Written by: Patriarch917
The thing is, there is no intrinsic difference between the two kids besides the one in the womb being healthier than the other. Nothing magic happens to the kid when you take it out of a womb and put it in a diaper. A soul doesn't "enter" it. It doesn't suddenly "gain" sentience.
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Written by: Patriarch917
If onewheeldave is right, then you have the ability to create your own morality. However, he seems also to suggest that the people of South Dakota may also create their own morality that is different from yours. Even if you strongly believe what you say, surely you cannot fault them for deciding to create their morality in a different way?
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Stone
I agree jeff(fake), it’s a sad day when the clock is turned back to the bad old days of illegal and unsafe abortions.
I would be surprised if the politicians in South Dakota are actually representing the community in this matter. More than likely, a few fundamentalist religious nutters have gained power and are now in a position to dictate their “moralistic” views in areas that are clearly none of their business.
As far as the politics goes. In Australia, our politicians have just finished discussing control of RU-486, 'the abortion pill'. This was done through a conscious vote where politicians could vote according to their conscious, not their party.
I think the irony of the South Dakota laws, is that these same fundamentalists that claim to be protecting innocent lives are probably the same ones calling for "blood" in the American led invasion of Iraq.
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: jeff(fake)Written by: Patriarch917
If onewheeldave is right, then you have the ability to create your own morality. However, he seems also to suggest that the people of South Dakota may also create their own morality that is different from yours. Even if you strongly believe what you say, surely you cannot fault them for deciding to create their morality in a different way?
By your logic if the government of South Dakota were to declare rape legal then it would be moral.
Written by: SethisWritten by: Patriarch917
You seem to suggest that it would be ok to kill the fetus that is still in the womb, but not the fetus (now called a preemie) that is in the NICU. Why is it not also ok to kill the one in the NICU?
Because I assume that the mother wants to have that child.
Written by: Sethis
The justification for the abortion comes from the wishes of both parents. If they are going to suffer serious hardship, psychological damage or other reasons why they do not want the baby, then that is how I work out whether it is alright to agree to an abortion.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
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