Written by: jeff(fake)
It may be true that humans require a certain amount of meat to remain healthy, but that doesn't mean we can't try and minimise the level of animal suffering needed to do it.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
Written by: DJ Dantana
life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on
this is neccisary
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: onewheeldave
When it comes to discussion on the vegetarian issue, i think it's OK for both sides to put their cases- debate is good.
The aim being to come to a conclusion.
Written by: AdeWritten by: onewheeldave
When it comes to discussion on the vegetarian issue, i think it's OK for both sides to put their cases- debate is good.
The aim being to come to a conclusion.
with my devils advocate hat on
I don't think that the aim always is to come to a conclusion as to which argument is more correct, or logical.
maybe the aim of the discussion is to come to understanding that there are many different perspectives, and not one size fits all?
Written by: onewheeldave
One aim being to come to a conclusion.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: OWD
Where does the Western meat industry fall?
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
Written by: dreamWritten by: OWD
Where does the Western meat industry fall?
As mentioned earlier...
Homogenizing the 'Western meat industry' is distinctly unhelpful.
Factory Farmed food is not the same as Freedom Food
Freedom Food is not the same as Free Range
Free Range is not the same as Organic
Locally grown produce is not the same as that which is imported.
The main reason the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) said that meat production accounts for 18% of the greenhouse effect is the deforestation in the tropics (for example 70% of the Amazon that has been cut down is now used for meat production).
Eating meat from a farm on the outskirts of Bristol does not require cutting down Brazilian rainforest. However, an organic farm on the outskirts of Bristol is part of the vaguely defined western meat industry, far more obviously so than anything in Brazil.
I think what you might mean is that Intensive factory farming, especially that which involves the alteration of old growth forests into agricultural land is a bad idea.
But then this has already been said, and I don't want to put words in your mouth...
Written by:
The main reason the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) said that meat production accounts for 18% of the greenhouse effect is the deforestation in the tropics (for example 70% of the Amazon that has been cut down is now used for meat production).
Written by: from above lijnk
And it accounts for respectively 37 percent of all human-induced methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 percent of ammonia, which contributes significantly to acid rain.
Written by: from above lijnk
The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the earth’s increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other things to water pollution, euthropication and the degeneration of coral reefs. The major polluting agents are animal wastes, antibiotics and hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used to spray feed crops. Widespread overgrazing disturbs water cycles, reducing replenishment of above and below ground water resources. Significant amounts of water are withdrawn for the production of feed.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by:
With increased prosperity, people are consuming more meat and dairy products every year, the report notes. Global meat production is projected to more than double from 229 million tonnes in 1999/2001 to 465 million tonnes in 2050, while milk output is set to climb from 580 to 1043 million tonnes.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
... simplify ...
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: faithinfire
being in Oregon, a while ago, my aunt took me through some virgin forest. passing through it, there was this incredible tingly feeling...cell phones don't work in those forests...i would say that it may not be a familiar consciousness, but that there is one there (imo)
even being vegitarian causes land destruction and who is anyone to say how much is acceptable and what is not...we just need to be more responsible with our farming techniques
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Written by:
*EVERYONE* in some way or another adds, takes, uses and abuses and so no one is exempt, immune, above or beyond anyone else.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: onewheeldave
The original topic, as stated in Little_Miss_Nebula's first post, was not simply about plants having feelings.
It was actually about plants having feelings AND the fact ,that they have feelings, invalidating vegetarian arguments that not eating meat is more kind.
What I've tried to put in a clear and consise form above, is that this is incorrect.
Pele, you mention "I've read quite a fair bit of contradictory information, including statistics like what you posted, and very different numbers".
Please do pass on some links and I will definitly check them out- my argument above very much depends on the fact that meat production (in western intensive farming) involves around 10x plant deaths than if the diet consisted on plants only.
As such, if that statistic is in doubt, then I would appreciate links to any info on it and, if the stat is incorrect, I can either modify or withdraw my argument.
I'll also clarify that I'm under no illusions that the actual planet Earth is in jepeardy here- even an all-out nuclear exchange isn't going to damage the Earth.
As you say, what is at issue is our continued existence (civilised- what ever happens it's unlikely thaty humanity will be completely wiped out).
Now, if the info above concerning the meat industries effect on the environment is correct, then meat use (at current levels) is no more a matter of personal choice than excessive car use, excessive flying, excessive industrial pollution etc.
Like all those, it can be argued that there are grounds for addressing any excess that results in damage for the next generations of our children.
Concerning 'adding to the problem' and the fact thatWritten by:
*EVERYONE* in some way or another adds, takes, uses and abuses and so no one is exempt, immune, above or beyond anyone else.
Yes, vegetarians do cause harm- it's just that they generally cause considerably less than those who eat a lot of meat.
This is because, as meat production involves around 10X (?subject to any contrary info in that stat) plant destruction, then, whatever harm plant destruction involves, meat eaters bring about 10x that amount.
NO human can live their life without causing some harm so there's no point setting the stanard at zero- what we can aspire to is to lower/minimise that harm.
In no way am I suggesting that everyone becomes vegetarian, simply that a lot more people eat a lot less meat, whether that's to cut down animal suffering or to cut down on the considerable environemental harm (and therefore harm to humanity) that excessive meat use causes.
Mainly, what I'm doing in this thread, is trying to address some of the invalid/dubious arguments that try to critisise vegetarianism or 'big-up' meat-eating.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!