Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"Moo," said the happy cow.
"Moo," said the happy cow.
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Nope that's wrong. What you're thinking of is the fact that even in a vacuum virtual particle/antiparticle pairs constantly appear and then disappear. However this can't do what you say because a) they always disappear within a given time (related to their energy) and more importantly b) they're just a mathematical abstraction caused by the fact that we use approximations in certain calculations to do with quantum fields as solving the equations properly is too hard. They don't actually exist
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"Moo," said the happy cow.
Written by: Dut
1) there are no causes, only effects. defining an event's "causes" is merely defining the limits of your perception and imagination -- a very handy thing to do when trying to figure out life's patterns, at any rate. but not so good for basing cosmologies.
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2) effects (and thereby "causes") don't happen in singly connected, linear, or even a necessarily time-forward fashion. this is the crux of the chaos theory that gives rise to the pure randomness our illusions of "free will" clings to.
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3) "will" (aka volition) CANNOT be "free" of physics, and never could be without invoking a form of "spirit" (or metaphysics).
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this is usually a copout for immortality and not wanting to admit (5).
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4) "will" CAN be "free" of intervention by other "wills", only in relation to how "unfree" of intervention it can be. or in other words, some will can be freer than others, but no will is free of iteself. (kill the eg0. break the mind of logic.) true story.
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5) and yeah. any of it that deserves the name "will" happens way below the scenes of "consciousness".
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SUMMARY - i really think it comes down to defining "free" and "will" as they're actually found in nature, rather than idealizing an infinite "free" and a perfect "will". peace.
-- dut
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTom
hmmm - yes excuse me I need more input, please come again. To me "free" is "not bound" (by circumstances)... "will" is harder to define... it's dedfinately more than a thought or an idea, but not as much as an action (yet)... or it's an action, but in some context...
I'm slow today... sorry
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: jeff(fake)Written by: FireTom
hmmm - yes excuse me I need more input, please come again. To me "free" is "not bound" (by circumstances)... "will" is harder to define... it's dedfinately more than a thought or an idea, but not as much as an action (yet)... or it's an action, but in some context...
I'm slow today... sorry
Don't worry yourself sweetie.
I didn't understand it either.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by: jeff(fake)
I largely agree (I think) but you've misinterpreted chaos theory slightly. It isn't randomness but rather unpredictability that is governed by chaos theory.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Dut
if it's impossible to predict the ordering of a set of numbers, isn't that the definition of randomness tho? the chaos theory is definitely where i feel the weakest, so if you have anything to add or point me to on what the difference is, i'd appreciate it.
-- dut
"Moo," said the happy cow.
Written by: Stone
A few more thoughts on free will: I think people who suggest that there is no such think as “free will” are in some ways similar in their views, to the people who once believed the world was flat. We need to find nothing before we can create. I think there are many people who have or had free will. The Dalai Lama, Jesus and Albert Einstein to name a few.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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if it's impossible to predict the ordering of a set of numbers, isn't that the definition of randomness tho? the chaos theory is definitely where i feel the weakest, so if you have anything to add or point me to on what the difference is, i'd appreciate it.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
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if it's impossible to predict the ordering of a set of numbers, isn't that the definition of randomness tho? the chaos theory is definitely where i feel the weakest, so if you have anything to add or point me to on what the difference is, i'd appreciate it.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: dream
chaos theory isn't random... if it was it would completely unpredictable. While we are nowhere near knowing exactly how chaotic systems work, we can understand trends, and make reasonably accurate short term predictions with chaotic systems such as weather patterns.
it's something thats definately beyond the scope of the human mind... but computers are a hell of a lot better at number crunching than we are... before computers chaotic systems appeared completely random and unpredictable, now with superior processing power we know that they aren't - but we still can't predict them with any real long term accuracy.
Self-similarity and the butterfly effect are facinating though.
Written by: onewheeldave
Imagine attempting to predict weather over a longer term- you'd need to have more detectors (for air pressure, humidity, wind speed etc) placed in the atmosphere- that would enable longer term predictions.
However, due to chaos/butterfly effect, there are fluctuations happening between, and undetected by, those detectors, that will, over long enough time, totally scew the ensuing predictions.
If this is countered by placing more detectors in the atmosphere, then predicition improves, but still, between the detectors are micro-fluctuations that they don't pick up.
Even in the impossible example of having a detector for every square centimeter of the Earths atmosphere, in between, there will be, say, a gnat that farts, and consequnetly triggers off a huge hurricane in twenty years time.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Poster: FireTom
So if we' would have the opportunity to exercise "free will" - to take an action fully independent of the circumstances, it would contribute to the "chaos" but still be predictable up to a certain extent... ??
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As for a completely opposing example: Like in a chess battle of two equally strong computers it will not necessarily end in "Remis" or "Patt" every time - even though every move has been pre-calculated through to the end of the match... ??
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Stone
jeff(fake) " Einstein's brain didn't violate the laws of physics any more than mine does."
True, if you want to follow that model. Obviously, there is more to life that physics, and Einstein knew that. The point was that people can break out of the deterministic cycle. Though it may mean putting down the physics books.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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A "free action" would be unpredictable, therefore "chaotic" - even though it might one of the few logical consequences/ actions... Meaning if one decides not to act according to underlying conditionings...
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Pratitya-samutpada is most commonly used to explain how suffering arises depending on certain conditions, the implication being that if one or more of the conditions are removed (if the "chain" is broken), suffering will cease
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: FireTom
So if we' would have the opportunity to exercise "free will" - to take an action fully independent of the circumstances, it would contribute to the "chaos" but still be predictable up to a certain extent... ??