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Posted:
I'd like to address some concerns I have with some practices in poi construction. First, I can't remember whether it was here of another board, but there's a great deal of concern on the part of some spinners, me included, in the use of keyrings in poi. Like I posted in another thread here that keyrings are straight wire formed into a circle. Over time, with heating and cooling they experience in spinning, keyrings turn back into wire and firey poi go flying. Please use the heavy duty links that screw shut. Also, I've seen some kids that use smaller link chain and widen the last link to allow the larger connecter link to go through. These distressed links also break over time with heating and cooling. Even though it's weight tested by the manufacturer. I've seen poi go flying from this. Have fun and play safe. Diana
I'd like to address some concerns I have with some practices in poi construction. First, I can't remember whether it was here of another board, but there's a great deal of concern on the part of some spinners, me included, in the use of keyrings in poi. Like I posted in another thread here that keyrings are straight wire formed into a circle. Over time, with heating and cooling they experience in spinning, keyrings turn back into wire and firey poi go flying. Please use the heavy duty links that screw shut. Also, I've seen some kids that use smaller link chain and widen the last link to allow the larger connecter link to go through. These distressed links also break over time with heating and cooling. Even though it's weight tested by the manufacturer. I've seen poi go flying from this. Have fun and play safe. Diana
member
148 posts
Location: Kansas City, MO USA
148 posts
Location: Kansas City, MO USA
Posted:
I use keyrings as a fastener from the handle, and have not had a problem. The little screw locks that holds the loop in my cable, however is another problem
. I agree, don't use keyrings on the buisness end.-PSM
I use keyrings as a fastener from the handle, and have not had a problem. The little screw locks that holds the loop in my cable, however is another problem
. I agree, don't use keyrings on the buisness end.-PSM One can only see what one observes, and one observes only things which are already in the mind.-Alphonse Bertillon
BRONZE Member
member
92 posts
Location: Androgen, Australia
member
92 posts
Location: Androgen, Australia
Posted:
I'm going to have to disagree here. It really comes down to your choice in keyring as to whether or not you have any problems. We use nickel plate steel rings, manufactured by a company whose sole purpose is making keyrings. As such they do it quite well, and we've never had any problems, even on our largest poi.So it's really up to the constructor to have a good check before they just whack any old keyring on their gear. Not all keyrings are made of wire bent into a circle ... some are purpose built ... and these are the ones people should find and use.Ðraevon.
I'm going to have to disagree here. It really comes down to your choice in keyring as to whether or not you have any problems. We use nickel plate steel rings, manufactured by a company whose sole purpose is making keyrings. As such they do it quite well, and we've never had any problems, even on our largest poi.So it's really up to the constructor to have a good check before they just whack any old keyring on their gear. Not all keyrings are made of wire bent into a circle ... some are purpose built ... and these are the ones people should find and use.Ðraevon.
member
68 posts
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
68 posts
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Posted:
It seems appropriate to forward on some information my wonderful teacher, director, and partner-in-crime put together and posted on another fire email list.It discusses the use of split rings and other pertinent poi-construction details. This is our 'poi bible', folks, and has never been divulged in such a comlete manner. It is the result of five years' experience in poi design, construction, and destruction! Here it is, in all its lengthy entirety - ENJOY!Greetings from Cabiria,A couple of people asked me to submit The Cabiri chain design for everyone. Whereas our chains are nowhere near as beatiful assome I have seen, they are very light weight while still being technically unbreakable by the spinner.I hope some people find this helpful and not too many feel it redundant.Essentially I break it up into three categories.1. Materials2. Design3. Equations and some subjective metallurgy_____________________________________________1. Materialswick:There are really two good choices of domesticly supplied wick, RenegadeJuggling and Dube Juggling. Dube Juggling uses an aramid wick reinforcedwith wire and kevlar. Renegade uses an aramid wich that appears to havecotton in it.We have found that the Dube wick lasts considerably longer and has muchhigher abarasion resistance while the Renegade wick retains more fuel andhas a burn time on average of 1.5 to 1.7 times that of the Dube wick.connectors:Contrary to trend we use a type of split ring connector. Industrialfishing split rings are, by our testing, the most durable option. Thesecan be found at commercial fishing supply stores and are relatively cheap.Before just trusting the claim of the split ring, go to the back of thefishing supply store, get two 50 pound lead weights (BIG fishing weights)and suspend them from the split ring, if it is the correct strength, youshould be able to jump up and down with the weight. Be very careful doingthis to prevent a herniated disk in your back.Notes on Other Devices;I have seen twist locks and carabiners spin open during performance and nearly come free. A good industrial split ring should be able to hold the performer suspended from the chains, hence you can not physically generate enough centripital force to destroy the ring. If you are really worried, double up, 100+ lb stainless steel fishing rings are 70 cents, cheaper than a key ring. In 4-5 years of this I haven't had one break on a chain, jumprope, comet, wazzer or other fire tool.Swivels:While you are at the fishing supply store, you can not leave without getting Sampo brand swivels, these things are the coolest little swivels in the world. I use the #300's which apparently have a 300 lb. working weight. We have not been able to place a load on them heavy enough tobreak them. They are a ball bearing swage lock swivel designed for saltwater fishing, and for goth-type spinners, they come in black!For those interested I have one that I dissected (with a hammer) and the internals are as bulletproof as you could hope for.chain:We have not yet found a satisfactory chain. Aesthetically we would like to use dog leash chain, however dog chains are most often chromed and an imperfect weld that is exposed to the acids in the plating process is a strong failure point. As a result (after some calculations, see bleow) we decided that 70 lb working weight welded oval link chain was sufficient. Regarding cables:We stay away from them for the reason that cable kinks and with that kink you get a weak link in the system and poor flight. Additionally we find cables to be uncomfortable for arm wraps and other close proximity moves.grip:I would like to use leather for its flame resistance, however, due to the fact that we see the grips exposed more to fuel than flame, we chose the hydrocarbon resistance of climbing webbing over leather. Inaddition a bar tack is hard to compare with as far as durability in a seam.2. Designwick:We square fold our wicks to provide the maximum surface area and drag with the folds. To secure them we pierce the wicks at all four points with a 1/8" T handeled lancet/awl/thingy we made for the job, it is important that the shaft be quite a bit wider than bailing wire. Following this werun bailing wire through all four points in a double half hitch. This prevents the wire from seeing the light of day on the parts of the wick that will brush up against you, and whereas those little brandings look cool, when you start doing partner work, they become redundant. ;-)wick to chain:The bailing wire is made into a loop that we make a pseudo bowline fold that is surrounded with a coil of wire. I would look at how the chain mail people wrap their ends, there is cool art potential there. One thing we like to do is have a really thick loop to protect travel through the split ring which is possible after continued use.chain to grip:For this we actually outsource to an outdoor clothing repair company. We have found that pre-assembling the grip with the ring inside and then having it double bar tacked makes a nice strong handle that is verybulletproof.grip to hand:I prefer a single loop so as to rapidly transfer the chains to one hand or to pass chains in performance. Realize that with a single loop you radically increase your chance of losing your tool. At one levelit is a safety hazard, but from another view, the risk of a flying club ismuch more real and dangerous. If you feel insecure with your chains, use the double loop system, it is superior from a safety standpoint, but as years go by, move to a single loop if you wish to do passing or single arm work.3. Equations and some subjective chemistry:(my apologies to anyone who feels this is redundant)When I made my first set of chains I was naturally compulsive and went back to first principles, it isn't that hard,The only real equation that is necessary is the string tension of a rotating ball from newtonian mechanics:T=m[((v^2)/R)+g cos(x)]where:T= force in Newtons 1N=.224 lbs.m= mass of object (stay in Kg or change g T etc.)v= velocity*R= radius (chain length)g= gravitational constant 9.8 m/s^2x= the angle of incident to gavity 0/360 = 6 o'clock*remember to find the velocity you can simply plug path length intoRPM*60 ...Some thoughts on chemistry:chain:Although chain can become frail under different stresses, a steel temper is fairly resistant to the temperatures that it is exposed to while spinning. There are various arguments, but the other day I saw someone really worrying about their old chain when they should have been worryingabout their connectors.If their are some blacksmiths out there that would disagree, I am very interested to hear your views as in the area of allow crystal tempering I am a novice to say the least.Fuel:Additionally, concerning lamp oil, We have found that lamp oil loses viscocity as it heats up, a really deep soaked wick that has been spun out, may spit lamp oil when it heats up. Good lamp oil is 99% long chainparrafin, in the us that is wax, it is solubilized with an aromatic, but it is still highly viscous for a fuel, add some heat to the mixture and it will begin to become more fluid, thus it will fly out of the wick easier.Spinning out:if you are indoors, and do not want to leave a trail of fuel around, you may try spinning out in a plastic bag, it is not the best of systems, but if you put a piece of cotton in the bottom of the bag, it allows the excess fuel to be absorbed and not leave you with a fueled bag.Most Importantly:Thanks to people in The Cabiri, some Cirque de Flambe people and various Black Rock Citizens that had really good ideas in developmental stages. People who use this info should keep in mind that there is no system that is not proven false in light of a more complete system, but we can always seek an asymptotic aproximation with our explorations. So, improve on this design!~J~www.cabiri.orgwww.anunnaki.org
It seems appropriate to forward on some information my wonderful teacher, director, and partner-in-crime put together and posted on another fire email list.It discusses the use of split rings and other pertinent poi-construction details. This is our 'poi bible', folks, and has never been divulged in such a comlete manner. It is the result of five years' experience in poi design, construction, and destruction! Here it is, in all its lengthy entirety - ENJOY!Greetings from Cabiria,A couple of people asked me to submit The Cabiri chain design for everyone. Whereas our chains are nowhere near as beatiful assome I have seen, they are very light weight while still being technically unbreakable by the spinner.I hope some people find this helpful and not too many feel it redundant.Essentially I break it up into three categories.1. Materials2. Design3. Equations and some subjective metallurgy_____________________________________________1. Materialswick:There are really two good choices of domesticly supplied wick, RenegadeJuggling and Dube Juggling. Dube Juggling uses an aramid wick reinforcedwith wire and kevlar. Renegade uses an aramid wich that appears to havecotton in it.We have found that the Dube wick lasts considerably longer and has muchhigher abarasion resistance while the Renegade wick retains more fuel andhas a burn time on average of 1.5 to 1.7 times that of the Dube wick.connectors:Contrary to trend we use a type of split ring connector. Industrialfishing split rings are, by our testing, the most durable option. Thesecan be found at commercial fishing supply stores and are relatively cheap.Before just trusting the claim of the split ring, go to the back of thefishing supply store, get two 50 pound lead weights (BIG fishing weights)and suspend them from the split ring, if it is the correct strength, youshould be able to jump up and down with the weight. Be very careful doingthis to prevent a herniated disk in your back.Notes on Other Devices;I have seen twist locks and carabiners spin open during performance and nearly come free. A good industrial split ring should be able to hold the performer suspended from the chains, hence you can not physically generate enough centripital force to destroy the ring. If you are really worried, double up, 100+ lb stainless steel fishing rings are 70 cents, cheaper than a key ring. In 4-5 years of this I haven't had one break on a chain, jumprope, comet, wazzer or other fire tool.Swivels:While you are at the fishing supply store, you can not leave without getting Sampo brand swivels, these things are the coolest little swivels in the world. I use the #300's which apparently have a 300 lb. working weight. We have not been able to place a load on them heavy enough tobreak them. They are a ball bearing swage lock swivel designed for saltwater fishing, and for goth-type spinners, they come in black!For those interested I have one that I dissected (with a hammer) and the internals are as bulletproof as you could hope for.chain:We have not yet found a satisfactory chain. Aesthetically we would like to use dog leash chain, however dog chains are most often chromed and an imperfect weld that is exposed to the acids in the plating process is a strong failure point. As a result (after some calculations, see bleow) we decided that 70 lb working weight welded oval link chain was sufficient. Regarding cables:We stay away from them for the reason that cable kinks and with that kink you get a weak link in the system and poor flight. Additionally we find cables to be uncomfortable for arm wraps and other close proximity moves.grip:I would like to use leather for its flame resistance, however, due to the fact that we see the grips exposed more to fuel than flame, we chose the hydrocarbon resistance of climbing webbing over leather. Inaddition a bar tack is hard to compare with as far as durability in a seam.2. Designwick:We square fold our wicks to provide the maximum surface area and drag with the folds. To secure them we pierce the wicks at all four points with a 1/8" T handeled lancet/awl/thingy we made for the job, it is important that the shaft be quite a bit wider than bailing wire. Following this werun bailing wire through all four points in a double half hitch. This prevents the wire from seeing the light of day on the parts of the wick that will brush up against you, and whereas those little brandings look cool, when you start doing partner work, they become redundant. ;-)wick to chain:The bailing wire is made into a loop that we make a pseudo bowline fold that is surrounded with a coil of wire. I would look at how the chain mail people wrap their ends, there is cool art potential there. One thing we like to do is have a really thick loop to protect travel through the split ring which is possible after continued use.chain to grip:For this we actually outsource to an outdoor clothing repair company. We have found that pre-assembling the grip with the ring inside and then having it double bar tacked makes a nice strong handle that is verybulletproof.grip to hand:I prefer a single loop so as to rapidly transfer the chains to one hand or to pass chains in performance. Realize that with a single loop you radically increase your chance of losing your tool. At one levelit is a safety hazard, but from another view, the risk of a flying club ismuch more real and dangerous. If you feel insecure with your chains, use the double loop system, it is superior from a safety standpoint, but as years go by, move to a single loop if you wish to do passing or single arm work.3. Equations and some subjective chemistry:(my apologies to anyone who feels this is redundant)When I made my first set of chains I was naturally compulsive and went back to first principles, it isn't that hard,The only real equation that is necessary is the string tension of a rotating ball from newtonian mechanics:T=m[((v^2)/R)+g cos(x)]where:T= force in Newtons 1N=.224 lbs.m= mass of object (stay in Kg or change g T etc.)v= velocity*R= radius (chain length)g= gravitational constant 9.8 m/s^2x= the angle of incident to gavity 0/360 = 6 o'clock*remember to find the velocity you can simply plug path length intoRPM*60 ...Some thoughts on chemistry:chain:Although chain can become frail under different stresses, a steel temper is fairly resistant to the temperatures that it is exposed to while spinning. There are various arguments, but the other day I saw someone really worrying about their old chain when they should have been worryingabout their connectors.If their are some blacksmiths out there that would disagree, I am very interested to hear your views as in the area of allow crystal tempering I am a novice to say the least.Fuel:Additionally, concerning lamp oil, We have found that lamp oil loses viscocity as it heats up, a really deep soaked wick that has been spun out, may spit lamp oil when it heats up. Good lamp oil is 99% long chainparrafin, in the us that is wax, it is solubilized with an aromatic, but it is still highly viscous for a fuel, add some heat to the mixture and it will begin to become more fluid, thus it will fly out of the wick easier.Spinning out:if you are indoors, and do not want to leave a trail of fuel around, you may try spinning out in a plastic bag, it is not the best of systems, but if you put a piece of cotton in the bottom of the bag, it allows the excess fuel to be absorbed and not leave you with a fueled bag.Most Importantly:Thanks to people in The Cabiri, some Cirque de Flambe people and various Black Rock Citizens that had really good ideas in developmental stages. People who use this info should keep in mind that there is no system that is not proven false in light of a more complete system, but we can always seek an asymptotic aproximation with our explorations. So, improve on this design!~J~www.cabiri.orgwww.anunnaki.org
poo-bah
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
Posted:
Wow, Charly, that's an impressive guide. A few comments:- I don't see much point in over-engineering certain components and not others. If the weak link in your system will only sustain a 70-lb load, what's the point of using another component that will sustain a 300-lb load?- Although cables do kink, I don't think that significantly reduces their strength. And swaged cables have a huge amount of surplus strength--according to the company that sold me my tools and parts, they're good for 500 lbs. As to messing up their flight--I haven't really found that to be the case. I also use cable and swaged sleeves to hold together my interleave wicks, rather than eyelet bolts (which many people use) or baling wire (as mentioned in your write-up--I've found wire in wicks can fail).- Regardless, a good alternative to cable is ball-chain. It's comparatively expensive, but has a good heft and untangles very readily. I'm using ball-chain w/ 5/16" balls, rated for 110 lb. There are larger sizes.
Wow, Charly, that's an impressive guide. A few comments:- I don't see much point in over-engineering certain components and not others. If the weak link in your system will only sustain a 70-lb load, what's the point of using another component that will sustain a 300-lb load?- Although cables do kink, I don't think that significantly reduces their strength. And swaged cables have a huge amount of surplus strength--according to the company that sold me my tools and parts, they're good for 500 lbs. As to messing up their flight--I haven't really found that to be the case. I also use cable and swaged sleeves to hold together my interleave wicks, rather than eyelet bolts (which many people use) or baling wire (as mentioned in your write-up--I've found wire in wicks can fail).- Regardless, a good alternative to cable is ball-chain. It's comparatively expensive, but has a good heft and untangles very readily. I'm using ball-chain w/ 5/16" balls, rated for 110 lb. There are larger sizes.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy
member
68 posts
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
68 posts
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Posted:
Hi Adamrice,I dragged John over to the computer to read your response/suggestions/questions and he says:1- 70 lbs is the 'working load' of the chain. the break weight is not rated. the 70 pound swivels are so small they don't work well with the chain, thus we use the 300# swivels.2- we've found that kinks in cable DO impact our performance so we choose not to use them. standard rigging practice is to avoid using cables that are kinked, which would lead me to conclude that its strength has been compromised.3- re: ball chain - that sounds cool. we'll look into it! but how do you terminate the end?Feel free to email me Adam, or respond here. I'll be checking in now and then.Charly------------------www.cabiri.org
Hi Adamrice,I dragged John over to the computer to read your response/suggestions/questions and he says:1- 70 lbs is the 'working load' of the chain. the break weight is not rated. the 70 pound swivels are so small they don't work well with the chain, thus we use the 300# swivels.2- we've found that kinks in cable DO impact our performance so we choose not to use them. standard rigging practice is to avoid using cables that are kinked, which would lead me to conclude that its strength has been compromised.3- re: ball chain - that sounds cool. we'll look into it! but how do you terminate the end?Feel free to email me Adam, or respond here. I'll be checking in now and then.Charly------------------www.cabiri.org
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Diana,There are "keyrings" (i don't think that is what they are called, but it is the shape of them) that are actually of a tongue in groove design. I sew handles to these (as they are realy hard to open) and thread my chain through them. I have never had an issue...simply because it is a pain to get stuff in and out I suspect. I chose this for two reasons. The tongue in groove locks in securly so I don't fear the flying flaming poi act, and I can still, with elbow grease and effort, take the handles off and change them around. I do agree that the screw loops should be used to keep the wick on, and that any form of keyring shouldn't be on the heated end of the poi. I have my poi so that at any given time I can change chain, wick or handle...since I am on th eroad so much andhave no idea when something will go. I have two complete sets of poi made up and alternate handles, wicks and chains on hand at all time...as well as repair and replace equipment. But this goes for all my stuff. No sense being out in the middle of nowhere at a Ren Faire swinging a non-wicked poi in one hand, a non-handled poi in the other while in my underskirt and bodice. Not at all what I want to present! "Keyrings" and screw clamps simply make it easier.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...
Diana,There are "keyrings" (i don't think that is what they are called, but it is the shape of them) that are actually of a tongue in groove design. I sew handles to these (as they are realy hard to open) and thread my chain through them. I have never had an issue...simply because it is a pain to get stuff in and out I suspect. I chose this for two reasons. The tongue in groove locks in securly so I don't fear the flying flaming poi act, and I can still, with elbow grease and effort, take the handles off and change them around. I do agree that the screw loops should be used to keep the wick on, and that any form of keyring shouldn't be on the heated end of the poi. I have my poi so that at any given time I can change chain, wick or handle...since I am on th eroad so much andhave no idea when something will go. I have two complete sets of poi made up and alternate handles, wicks and chains on hand at all time...as well as repair and replace equipment. But this goes for all my stuff. No sense being out in the middle of nowhere at a Ren Faire swinging a non-wicked poi in one hand, a non-handled poi in the other while in my underskirt and bodice. Not at all what I want to present! "Keyrings" and screw clamps simply make it easier.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
member
53 posts
Location: Denver, Co.
53 posts
Location: Denver, Co.
Posted:
I use ball chain and love it, they make the same type of connectors that you use on the small type of ball chain you see on most ceiling fans and they have a hole in the center large enough to fit both split ring connectors and screw type connectors. the ball cain has the flexibility of traditional chain, doesn't need swivels, and does't tangle as easy as normal chains. I tried a set of the Fyre Fly poi last week and I agree, the cable doesn't feel the same as chain and the connector on those is scary. My friend that owns them is just learning while practicing the two heads collided, when this happened the connector opened letting the head come flying off. Good thing they weren't lit! Maybe it was just a fluke, has anyone else had this happen?[This message has been edited by crispyx (edited 29 January 2001).]
I use ball chain and love it, they make the same type of connectors that you use on the small type of ball chain you see on most ceiling fans and they have a hole in the center large enough to fit both split ring connectors and screw type connectors. the ball cain has the flexibility of traditional chain, doesn't need swivels, and does't tangle as easy as normal chains. I tried a set of the Fyre Fly poi last week and I agree, the cable doesn't feel the same as chain and the connector on those is scary. My friend that owns them is just learning while practicing the two heads collided, when this happened the connector opened letting the head come flying off. Good thing they weren't lit! Maybe it was just a fluke, has anyone else had this happen?[This message has been edited by crispyx (edited 29 January 2001).]
How is it ever possible to feel safe and secure in a world in which everyone dies?
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