If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: Stone
Jeff, you said "Feeling victimised doesn't change whether or not your lifestyle causes unneccasery harm or not."
That’s crap. It’s not about feeling victimized, it’s about changing peoples attitudes. The guilt approach does not work.
Written by: Stone
Unnecessary harm could mean many things to many people. If you want to stop unnecessary harm then you had better start at the top, and teach human beings to respect each other first. When humans have evolved enough to respect each other and stop killing each other. Then perhaps they will respect the environment as well as other species.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Stone
Good points Dave. I agree with the ego thing, though I still think there is something is missing in this debate. You could call it victimization, but what I object to is the way vegetarians take the high moral ground in these debates.
Written by: Stone
The Middle Way sets a path through the two extremes of indulgence and self-denial. It could be construed that the hard-line attitude of many vegetarian / animal rights campaigners looks a lot like self-denial, and is in many ways indulgent. Enlightenment cannot be reached by a person who is not calm and at ease, or is so exhausted by hunger and thirst that their mind is unbalanced.
Written by: Stone
I also find the concept of right livelyhood difficult to understand. Many caring professions can also cause harm. Politicians who put re-election over the well being of their constituents, lawyers who defend guilty people, chefs who cook meat, Doctors who rely on animal testing.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
I'll tell you this...
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. "Jim Morrison"
****
"...but I, being poor, have only my dreams
I've spread my dreams under your feet
tread softly because you tread on my dreams..." Yeats
Written by: daphne
It's not about wrong or right. It's something completely subjective.
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
I'll tell you this...
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. "Jim Morrison"
****
"...but I, being poor, have only my dreams
I've spread my dreams under your feet
tread softly because you tread on my dreams..." Yeats
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: stout
This thread's a little shy in the guilt thing...
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by:
the guilt comes into play in this thread with "think how the poor animals are treated" or "it destroys the environment with over grazing and flatulence." Whether it is a fact or not does not mean it cannot be used as a guilt trip.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: Stout
I can count the times I've personally had a "problem" with vegetarians using the fingers one one hand, but, as OWD points out, it's the activists that cause all the polarization between meat eaters and vegetarians.
Written by: Stout
One comes to expect vegetarians to immediately seize moral high ground, and a visit to some veg websites where they outline the meat industries practices only serves to prove this point. Why else would this information be there if not to reinforce the "we're superior" mindset that underlies the motivation behind becoming a veg in the first place.
Written by: Stout
That frutarian website I linked to in the first page of this thread serves as an example of this going to far with the suggestion that one can be ethically superior even to vegans by switching to their diet.
Written by: Stout
Vegetarians are right about the animal suffering and environmental damage though and those topics do belong in a discussion about vegetarianism It's only natural for meat eaters to see them as a guilt trip and go on the defensive, much like the frequent flyers did.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: Stout
OWD, I don't agree with the "want to be polarised" idea because it's something that simply just happens, whether one is looking for it or not. A case in point may be a meat eater going out to dinner with a group of vegetarians. How is that meat eater going to feel about placing his/her order for say veal, rare ? Would the meat eater simply assume that the vegetarians won't mind and go ahead,,or temper their order to something that's more socially acceptable for the moment ? Would said meat eater feel he/she was pressured to make a choice... I think so.
Written by: Stout
especially in light of the 18% percent of greenhouse gasses....and the IPCC report that just graduated global warming from "issue" to "crisis" and just admit that eating meat is bad for the environment. ............
.......One thing I don't understand..if a person becomes a vegetarian for animal cruelty reasons, then why not go vegan ? because unless you have Bossy the milk producing cow living in your backyard, a vegetarian consuming commercially produced dairy is just as guilty of perpetuating "the industry" as a meat eater
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTom
First of all I would like to issue doubts whether or not animal farming is de facto responsible for 18% of the worlds greenhouse gases. Would you be so kind, OWD, to - if you haven't so far - provide sufficient evidence, that proves this?
Written by: FireTom
I would also not claim, that vegetarians are a minority (worldwide) - as (for instance) Indians (to my personal knowledge) are predominantly Vegetarians, if not Vegans.
Written by: FireTom
Whereas this thread points at the fact, that vegetables indeed do have a consciousness and feelings - one fact that vegetarians usually deny, because this would diminish their "saint pattern".
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to