Forums > Social Chat > Attention all - please read

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
yes...thanks malcolm for creating such an amazing place. I feel like i know peopole before i actually meet them. I met milk last ngiht for the first time...greeat guy..

I never ever knowingly put anyone down on this site. I try to make and keep as many friends as possible as you never know who you will need to be there for you. This applies to people in other countries as im hoping to travel around the world and i will need somewhere to stay...

a stranger is a friend you have never met before...

erm...this is only a temp account until i get home and get the password to my usual account...sorry (itsa still the same flipping wierdo though)

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Thank you Malcolm! I have been feeling less and less inclined to post here recently. Not pointing fingers at anyone as I'm not that type of person, but I seem to find some of the threads totally beyond me..

Please do not feel responsible for our actions Malcolm, this site is full of strong people - You created the environment - but we created the beast. I hope people after reading this will rain in some of thier thoughts.. Althought a fine balance is needed so as not to stop freedom of speach..

Treat others as you wish to be treated.. Great saying even if I do say so myself

Much respect for you Malcolm for voicing your opinions so well, I only wish I could do the same.

Kap KhunKah..
Niki

I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm, you and the moderators are doing a great job! The problem with freedom of speech is that sometimes it is abused.

I truly appreciate having this board, and the wonderful site that you have created for us to share our love of poi and meet some likeminded people. Don't give up on us!

Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Hi, thank-you for pointing out what this site is actually for! Whatever mistakes people make by taking this sites facilities for granted are not your fault!

much love SNOOPoi

THWACK!!!!
Liz_Ard: Ouch!
SNOOPoi: Thats just not the sound of someone doing it right!

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm

Yes, you have created a monster. It is a teenage monster called HoP. It is hormonal, grouchy, confused and conflicted. It is also not your fault.

Its main problem is that it is a perpetual adolescent. And like all adolescents, it goes through periods where it makes wonderful discoveries about engaging with the world, and periods where it behaves like a spoilt child having a tantrum.

We do have cycles, and that in itself is a good thing, because we pull ourselves up and police ourselves.

I am not in anyway be-littling your post, because this post is just the type to guide us back to a better stage. But I do want to say, do not stress, do not worry. We will grow up eventually.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Rozi,

I sure hope we never grow up. Growing up means stagnation. Stagnation is bad!

However, I agree with Malcolm that perhaps it goes against what this site stands for to have members judging other members.

Malcolm, I have decided to stay away from any part of the site where we vote for "who is the best 'X'". It's not that I think you've done anything wrong, it's just that it's never been my thing to judge my peers like that and I figured it would turn into a popularity contest and get snippy.

So it didn't turn out the way you had planned. Oops.

Perfection is a direction, Malcolm, not an actual destination.

As a side-note, I'm going to have an amazing time over New Year's. Why? Because I am going to meet a bunch of people who I would never know existed if it weren't for HOP. If not for HOP, I'd be spending this New Year's with my parents, bored out of my skull. Thanks to this site, friendships have been born that wouldn't have ever been concieved otherwise.

I think THAT part worked out exactly as you wanted.

Warm Regards,

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm, well done for speaking out about your feelings and giving us all food for thought.

You are not the cause of the monster who rears it's ugly head. Everyone who has ever posted here has played a part in what this place has become. Competetiveness is part of human nature and with or without encoragement it will come into the fore.

Hop is generally a fabulous place to hang out. There is so much love, support, respect and understanding around the place it warms my heart .

Are we nearly there yet?

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcom, you have created somthing that contains great beauty.
If HOP were a child, with all the knollage that is shared within this site, you would be a very proud parent.

As UCOF said "a stranger is a friend you have never met before..." but here every one is a friend, all united in one love- and that is thanks to you. Even though it may go through tough patches, like anything in life, it will come right in the end.
Malcom you have done yourself proud.
LOL
Trippy

Trippie Hippie- Monty Dons secret love child

Fly like a mouse, run like a pillow, be the small book case.

"Last night i met some pixies and we danced around a stone".

Because dressing up is fun.

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
for each and every one here, no more sad feeings or anger... lets all get neked and have some fun! just kidding... i love every single one of you, share the love...
lets be friends
LETS BE HOME OF POI!

Thanks malcolm.

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm... You are in trouble!!!!!!

Again for the third or fourth time in my time here I have read your post and cried... (once again we need a smiling smilie with tears in its eyes)

You are an amazing soul as are most individuals on this site... The others just dont realise how beautiful they are.

Any community needs a degree of tolerance. I dont believe we should shut people out; not that you or anyone has... I think that we do have to accept some problems and deal with them as we do...

Those who are part of HOP and love it as much as I and others here do will be alright in the grand sceme of things. Malcolm you need not put any fault on yourself. You are an angel and work for the better of all a true selfless person if I ever saw one.

I and all others here owe you some good old respect for your efforts. So go on Malcolm pat yourself on the back. HOP is amazing and is good for all.

Drome

JUGGLEwithyourmind!

Posted: 4th Dec 2002

You haven't created a beast.. you've created the only place i feel truely accepted, and cared for, through this wonderful board i have met the most wonderful people who have become good mates. I've even met a lurvely man i love from here!

Trust me Malcolm i owe you so much for setting this up!

Alice

Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm,
While I know we spoke of this on the phone, and I completely applaud the stance you are taking, please indulge me to write out my opinions for the rest of the family, as I am an emotional person by all accounts and am incredibly saddened at the attitudes rearing their heads on the board lately.
I agree in thinking that when the board was birthed it was very much like a child, who occassionally fails to get it's way and throws it down, who can be so tender and loving and affectionate out of the blue, who can be sullen and sour one moment and jubilent the next.

The thing is in dealing with HOP in it's current growth that we are not dealing with one single child, but a collective mentality, more like children in the schoolyard. You have provided us a place to play. There are those who watch the children, you are the headmaster (should I get you a whip? ). Sometimes the children play well together and there is peace, sometimes things get a bit rough and the other children calm things down. Right now what I see is the more raucous phase, where some of the elder children come out to play, they run amuck on the playground themselves, not paying attention to the fact that they run over the other newer children. Unfortunately, the mentality is innocent, and so it is viewed that nothing is wrong. This is hard to deal with, especially when the playground is so sparkling and lovely, and the kids have those lovely doe eyes that beem innocently about with joy.

What has created this environment? Certainly not a lack of effort on your part Malcolm. I think as mods we have gotten a bit laxed, in some ways, and we fail to communicate in others. I know there are days when I am so frustrated or tired that I don't do the job I was appointed to do, and I know that happens with everyone, but it is no excuse and for this I apologise.
I think the kids are also a bit tried and tired at times. I think they don't want to police themselves, as that is not what they are on here for, and so there is tension there. Again, I am sorry.
I think that the pure joy of playing has turned into a "watch what I can do on the monkey bars" thing, and the new kids are intimidated and fearful of playing because of this.
I think that there is a serious lack of respect on here, which is sometimes the result of comfort and time.
As with any large groups there are cliques, understandably, and truth be told, I don't see alot of reaching out beyond the comfort of the formed cliques. A few members really strive to reach everyone, but not as many as there used to be.

The playground goes through it's cycles, as does everything, and things will eventually turn around, whether by collective effort (I hope) or by sheer "breaking point" need.

As far as things in the competition and such are concerned, I do agree that it has gotten out of control, and we see it more and more with each video. I have always believed in and loved the video's very much, in fact I have always loved this site as if I somehow shared in the creation, and in the original spirit I think it should continue.
I suggest that you conduct an experiment with the COL4. Remove the prize offers and see who still enters. This would be purely in the nature of sharing and giving, of showing and learning, putting a best foot forward so to speak. If, after you make the video Malcolm, you feel the need to award a prize for something that stole your breath away or believe in honorable mention type stuff, send the "winners" a notice of prize, without telling everyone else. No one needs to know but you and them. This alleviates (hopefully) the pressure on yourself and the entrants. Truly, as much as I understand the Personal Choice type awards, I think that will just breed alot of issues in the wake of the release.

Overall this is the most beautiful and amazing community. It is a learning place and a haven, and it always will be. Malcolm, you deserve to be proud of that, and should be. People will act as they will, and the sheer numbers on this board will definately play into the mood and temperment. Not everyone can be happy all the time, and there is no need in trying to pull that off, it is way too much stress. You have created such an amazing place Malcolm, but in many ways the direction this playground takes is very much out of any of our single hands. You can guide and nurture, but each individual child on the playground can only determine for his/herself what s/he will bring into the sandbox. I only hope after this rare outpouring on your part that they decide to share their toys and their unique loveliness instead of maintaining these divisions.
I also want to say I really like hearing the more emotional Malcolm on the board, and appreciate it alot!

Love to all my fellow playground associates (meant in only the kindest, most affectionate of ways everyone)

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Just the sheer explosion of peeps on the board is enough to make you want to pull your hair out sometimes. Obviously, there is something here that so many of us have been looking for, but joining a community is much more difficult than finding it! I can think of several times where I could have been better/nicer/kinder to people than I was. You know, you think to yourself about what you said and wish you could alter it, but alas, it's been distributed. Everyone who posts needs to be more mindful that we teach people how to act here by how we act. Thank you for providing our meeting place, and please don't feel disheartened that it sometimes seems to lead a-stray. We sometimes need a collective attitude adjustment like you just provided. Thank you!

BTW, maybe we should have a rule that by default every post should be taken in a funny/happy way. It's so easy to be misunderstood with this form of communication. When in doubt, laugh!

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
I'm so very confused.

I don't think HoP is any better or worse than it has ever been. Actually, despite flareups here and there I don't think there has been very much competition/testosterone/"I'm better than you" at all. A year ago when I joined there were droves of guys playing the I'm better than you game. Ravers battled Fire kids. People got mad and left. This topic has been discussed before. About every two months someone posts a "this place sucks why can't it be like it used to be post"... Heck, I posted one a while back that made fun of that fact. And even before that I suggested the addition of the mission statement which was implemented soon thereafter.

As a classroom teacher I know that a class will always digress to the point at which you let them. My classes are always exactly as hectic as I let them get. I see the two kids talking in the back, I see the kid sneaking a sip from a snapple bottle and it's up to me to decide when the distractions are outweighing interrupting class to stop them.

I've always felt that HoP was undermoderated on purpose. Which I can support. The rules are inforced only when someone clearly steps over the line. Tempers flare, people leave, new people join. It's an artificial environment where any knucklehead can say anything they want. Including me. I have always felt that the adminsitration has purposely not stated clear rules nor clear direction to allow the threads, relationships, and conversations to progress organically.

I don't see anything new happening now that hasn't been happening over the last year.

IF you'd like the place run differently there really need to be written expectations which are clearly, unbiasly, and efficiently enforced. Honestly, the rules are vague. What you or I might interpret as "appropriate" is not the same as a KKK member from Mississipi or a 12 year old from Tiwan. And all of those people are welcome to post.

I also believe that when a foul is committed it needs to be called a foul. Specifically. It's frustrating when people post vague things like "People are being too competitive" or "People are making too many personal attacks" because I NEVER know who the heck we're all talking about. Who? When? What? Recently, and in the past, threads have been deleted by the posters before I even get a chance to read them. Fights were started, curses were yelled, then posters go back and delete/rephrase things and I don't know what the heck happened.

I know that there are two ways to moderate in the class room:
1) Let the kids do whatever they want and let them realize themselves that nothing is getting done. This takes time but can be very effective if the students are mature enough to learn. I think that this is what often happens when civilians break up fights, etc.

2) Lay down clear expectations and enforce them to the letter.

AHHHH!
Unfortunately, I need to run. In conclusion:

A) I don't think that there are clear expectations about behavior on HoP. I know that they are posted and written (I can see Flash directing me to them now) but in my profession handing one a piece of paper and saying "these are the rules" is useless.

B) I think that when those expectations aren't met little to nothing is done.

C) I don't think that "A" or "B" is necessarily a problem.... as long as we all don't mind it getting a little messy at times.

This is an international community. We all have radically different views. We are all radically different people. Either this site needs to set up very specific guidelines OR we need to be comfortable with a "keep it within the tribe" style approach of self moderation that I think we have been doing. The former leans towards structure and control, the later leans towards freedom and anarcy.

I honestly support either one. But you can't do both.

(I really gotta run so I'm posting this as a first draft, please allow for typos and misstatements)

Thanks for letting me speak as you always have,
NYC

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm,

Thanks for HoP. It can be a fun place and a great resource.
My first week was spent chatting with the HoPpers I met in Paris and basically introducing myself to the other members of the site.

Then the first flaming started and so I stopped posting.
Now, my posting is down to a trickle.
Certainly, life isn't all rosy but this place should be a place of nuturing and positive vibes, not a place for little dogs to bark louder than others.

You cannot take responsability for what happens on this site, Malcolm, because its not your fault what other people post.
Like someone who opens a nightclub, its not your fault when a patron pukes on the floor.
(charming image..)

Thank you again for setting up this site and for caring so much about it.

Raphael

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm, I whole-heartedly agree with what you have said, and belive that HoP is a wonderful place, where new friends are found and old friendships are strengthened. Without this place, I would have never met such wonderful people such as yourself, and all the rest of the people that belong to this family, because as I see it, we are not a community, but a family pulled together from around the world by a common desire and intrigue to learn more about something that has raged with its own raw power since the earth was created. I know that I have contributed to the beast in bad ways in the past, and would like to apologize to anyone that I may have offended, you know who you are. I believe that I truly speak for everyone here, for once, when I say that you have not created a monster or beast or whatever you want to call it, but a truly beatiful place. I would like to take this time to thank you Malvolm, for creating Home of Poi, and creating this global family

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm ,

WE WHO CREATE COMMUNITY

trintek in Texas, those of us in SoCal, & some of the LA, Detroit, and Seattle regional fire arts community advocates among Americans, and i would imagine our much respected colleagues in London, & at least some pyros in New Zealand of whom i know, all feel your frustration, hope, and committed attitude of welcome extremely vividly, and with great sympathy & collegial support for your global mission.

from this post of yours, i have read the most spot-on, excellent, big-picture input from Pele, as we know and love to see her at her best, that i have for a long time. brava, Lynne!

Thistle is right that you are not at fault; being sincere about creating a community which can largely evolve itself, you have allowed it to grow and reach these inevitable turmoils. inevitable because rude members is not the only problem. let me be frank: many members' egos also overreact on the part of those who feel hurt, not only overreacting to rudeness by others. they also overreact badly sometimes to positive good and helpfulness from others. it is a general corollary to the intense passions, whether explicit or subtle, which seem part of virtually everyone drawn to fire.

as for growing up, where NYC sees chaos as typical and not so alarming, & MikeGinny sees change, accepting much chaos, as positive, Rozi's recognition of the adolescent stage of HoP itself is uquestionably true.

PERPETUAL ADOLESCENCE ELEMENTS

and what you may consider monstrous is that it might remain what she's called for us "a perpetual adolescent," that this might be the "natural" or most-of-the-time common mode of: the community, though you could shape it again, being more mature than it is, by administrative fiat, while some of it will also resent; of the dynamic make=up of its members; of its people; of what part of those people is in play when it comes to fire arts; of fire-arts in our world this century.

while being an extreme positivist about potential and undertakings, not being naive includes, for me, not harboring illusions about what is, and what is actually in play. well,

while the community's in adolescence, in the future, will there be more mature members (of any age) with regard to rudeness, exaggerated sensitivity, and welcome?

fire arts attract most people while very young. as MisStix implies, we also attract very strong people, and we can add, we blessedly free the strong part within timid people. so further growth is likely to continue to bring in brand new fire artists who are young and impulsive and react unsure of many people's meaning, and in droves if they did get less shy. sure, experience and age will mellow many who stay active in our family, but very slowly. "elders" or "peacemakers" or "kids of wisdom" will be mainly-but-not-always cherished, and few. many will always chafe at such disciplined goodness, no matter how natural, finding it personally inconvenient. and all their lives, HoPers, being pyros, are likely to be far more impulsive, tumultuous, and often intentionally and unintentionally more overbearing, pained, impatient, skewed towards certain impulse and attitudes and interpretations, and yes...competitive than the general population.

COMPETITION ~ INTERNAL

ah, competition. you don't only get people dropping out because someone bashed or bested them competitively. we have HoPers drop out because they win, and don't find enough challenge, so they say, even at the paramount online location for new moves; they find new moves faster alone or with live designer partners.

what really breaks my heart is that we also have HoPers drop out, silently, usually, because i suspect they consider their own efforts overshadowed in the limelight by others, even in matters of community. instead of being glad the projects and connections they have advocated and maybe worked upon themselves are now occurring, that many more are joining them in doing and welcoming what they've championed, they reject their own early real hopes, certainly their public posture, and cease contributing...or worse. very often they find for one reason or another that the good things they wanted for us can be done, but takes more work than they want or can handle at the time others do it.

as if they want the fame of being the one who does good so much, they'd rather it not get done at all before seeing someone else do the same good, or join them in really obtaining it...sometimes especially if the help was critical. that's how personal their ego is, and where it's flare burns. in these cases, they withhold constructive criticism as well as contribution.

and it is vital to distinguish between competitiveness in the art & sport & daring of fireplay, vs. competitiveness in any other way at all... including about how well you do vs. doing it at your competitive best.

COMPETITION ~ GLOBAL

WHAT A PITY if COL & other competition were to stop or be suspended, yet you may make that choice in favor of current community spirit levels... for a while... before some drop out because they really require higher competition, even tension, to keep them interested in a place or a community. it is saying, "WE CAN'T HANDLE COMPETITION" just as we are examining here.

maybe 105% of all new moves must be invented from a sense of competition. 103% because the spinner is saying, "what hella dope new move can i do which no one has done before?" 2% because the spinner is saying, "how can i bring out of myself something i've never done before, and do it secretly coz i don't want anyone to watch." 2 days ago a spinner outside of HoP recommended NOT showing vid of your work to anyone else, so they couldn't copy your live performances so easily.

BECAUSE SADLY competition, especially in the arts themselves, is one of the greatest boosters and maintainers of top quality at the high end, is part of the stuff of HoP's identity, if it wishes to have it, as the place that's qualified to annoint the best of the best... if judgment were not to be construed by overreacting people as a bad thing. regardless of whether HoP corporately aspires to such pre-eminence or not. it means we cannot aspire to being as high a communal, technical, and moral standard as the Olympics. we're not talking about the IOC. we're talking about the joyous, world-breath-taking occasional concentration of the best in the world in several events, showing precisely that OLYMPIANS CAN UNITE WHILE COMPETING.

FAMILY

everyone else who has posted here is a testament, each of us to each other, especially now to Malcolm, of unity itself, a whole channel in itself which for us underlies the different insights we have to bear on these issues. many go first to love and soothe, if they can, Malcolm and each other's frustrations, more than for developing the communal topic. for both, i give major props to everone in this thread.

yours with the burning love many of us share
in our global pyro family,

~ Mike

[ 05. December 2002, 13:35: Message edited by: FíreMîke ]

molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm i hope this will bring a smile to your face again, this to me is one of my most favorite HOP moments in my time here and i cherish this day forever more thank you with out you this wouldnt have happend.

Non-Https Image Link

one big happy family:hug:

[ 05. December 2002, 11:22: Message edited by: PK ]

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm and the Mods, thanks for everything you guys have done here. I don't think that there's much I can say that hasn't alrady been expressed, but I think its one of the best communities that I've ever encountered and really appreciate everything you guys have done to keep it safe and welcoming.

Beauty is the conscious sum of all our perversions.-Salvador DaliHope without action is hopeless.

Posted: 5th Dec 2002
Competition can be healthy. It drives people to do greater things. But it can also drive people to be angry, or insulted, or hurt, etc.

Without competition we may grow stagnant. Or we may slow in the growth of our abilities "because it doesn't matter". And, I don't mean the type of competition where people's feelings are on the line, but the healthy type. The type where it doesn't matter if you win or loose, but in how you play the game. A friendly competition is good. It can cause bad feelings for a person who has their heart set on winning, to loose. But it is their own fault for loosing themselves in the desire for a goal, not the fault of the person who provided the goal.

I have seen some people taking a lot of things to seriousely. Getting insulted over jokes, getting a little too agresive at correcting other's mistakes. Like a criminal steals a purse, then the cops blow him up with a nuclear weapon....yea, there is a little "over doing it" sometimes.

But, I have also seen people make up and appologize, and realize how they messed up. I have seen people leave because they got into big fights and felt ashamed to ever come back...under the same log-in name.... And i have seen threads fix themselves because people realized what was happening.

Malcolm, you can't take credit for every idiot out there with an internet access. The people will behave however they want, but it is up to the people to correct themselves, and I think they usualy do. Otherwise you have totalitarianism

The only other alternative would be to go through and impose draconian moderation and rules. But I think it is not nessisary. I think, as a whole, this site is not doing bad. In fact I think it is doing great. IMHO

About the prize for COL4....I didn't ever enter the video competition for the reason of winning anything. There was no prize for the first one anyways, right? I was just happy to make it onto a video with so many tallented people, many of whom put me to shame. I learned so much from the col videos, I would still be a poi weaking if not for the col series. I know I am good at twirling now, I also know there are a LOT of people who are better than me, People who I am dieing to learn from. I met one of them recently....It was the most fun I've had in a long time. So, I don't care about the prospect of a prize, take it or leave it. But I also don't think it is the "prize money" which generates bad vibes. I think the bad vibes are purely a product of a bunch of misunderstandings, and a few rude people, and a few people who overcompensate for percived rudeness. Sometimes people write befor they think. And a lot of people are misunderstood, mostly because we all speak english, but we all have different culture, and even two americans writing each other on the internet can easily misunderstand eachother. Because "tone of voice" is so important, yet totaly absent on the internet.

Overall I realy don't see that this site has "gone down the toilet". I realy think it is getting better every day. It is shamefull that people do drive eachother away sometimes, but on the whole I see more people being helpfull and loving than the alternative. I think it is just that the small bad is more noticable than the big good. The bad parts keep us awake at night, but the good parts are usualy forgotten. Such is human nature.

If I have done anything to contribute to bad vibes on here I appologize, but I never ment to hurt anybody, ever, with anything I ever said. It is my nature to be kind. (and to joke, and be wierd, etc) so I hope I haven't done anything bad.

Thank you, Malcolm, for providing a playground for us to play in. For that, we all owe you more than we could ever repay.

we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

Posted: 5th Dec 2002
santanatwo, ah, a move vid of or from you was sent to me by someone who recently left HoP, someone technically very happily competitive, who felt the personalities had gotten, however, too competitively rough or huffy for that pyro's staunch-mellow friend-nature.

so i've added ^ recognition of MisStix' note about strong people, in my last para on PERPETUAL ADOLESCENCE ELEMENTS, & two paragraphs to my post above, at the very end of the part about COMPETITION ~ INTERNAL, to make it fully clear there.

PK, how i would have loved to be a family member in the time of your wonderful pic. when was that?

with all my love,

~ Mikie

[ 05. December 2002, 13:38: Message edited by: FíreMîke ]

molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

Posted: 5th Dec 2002
yes there will always be this to deal with in our community. we are not all enlightened. even now as some of the intermediates advance with their skills and learn humility, esp. once seeing someone "better" than themselves, the kindling is gathered by the rest of them for ego battles among the advanced, who are then teaching the acolytes from an ego position. just give it time. to minimize their effects forms of etiguette must be agreed upon and maintained in this our art's adolescence... i see so many correlations to kung fu in our art, and here is yet another. you bow to the dojo, whether it's yours or not. you are really bowing to kung fu, to the fire in the spirit that we all share, and cultivate with "diligent practice," which is the english translation of "kung fu." we all have it inside of us. so how does the martial arts world survive these very same problems, including competition? by accepting the fact that people have these egos, and trying to maintain a certain etiquette.
even if it is just in your mind, we need to always adress new friends with a certain air of respect and humility, and a bow. a bow that stays there throughout the conversation. that doesn't mean it has to be uptight .(like i even need to say that.) like a handshake. but if it is consciously there, and is readable as such, IT will be the matrix, and not competition. it's all about the attitude. then when people get on to post, they know how to act also.
i've never seen any of the videos, except the sage vid after it got made. (her face was beet red the whole time ) i don't submit to COL for my own reasons. so i don't know nothin about that whole decision. but i think the egos and competition will happen with or without COL. in fact i know it. you just have to decide if you want to have that associated with you or not. some of our family have anger issues, and competition can help them, esp. if they need it to be self disciplined.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 5th Dec 2002
Fire Mike [5th may 2002, clapham common london]
that was pretty much every one from HOP that wanted to get in the pic. that was probably half the crowd in the pic, there were so many more.
For some reason we didn't do another pic last time :shame:.

[ 05. December 2002, 12:43: Message edited by: PK ]

Posted: 5th Dec 2002
Malcolm
Much love to you...You have opened the door for so many people to meet, and grow and love.
If it wasnt for this site I wouldnt have met my soulmate. I have never been this happy in my life and it is because one day a man sat down with an idea and made it into a living breathing entity...which in turn allowed me to meet my one true love...Thank you for that Malcolm
Peoples actions are their own...you are unable to predict or stop the way that people will act or react...
Peoples attitude will change constantly and will ebb and flow with positivity and or negitivity...hence the "cycles" on HOP...But you as a singular person are unable to rectify that, nor do you HAVE to...It is our responsability as a community to watch our attitudes and keep them in check...It would be unrealistic for us to expect ANYTHING like that from you...
I come here with love and light and have never meant anyone any harm...I have made beautiful close friends from here... in fact just the other day when my mum walked into the computer room as I was posting on Hop and asked what I was doing...I replied, "Sending love to my lil puter family" Becasue thats what I see everyone from Hop as...
Sure there have been times where I have gotten fired up and cross...but I have gotten over that and learnt from it..There are so many people that have so much to offer here at hop that I dont believe that I will ever leave...You guys are like my family...and I love you all
Love Chicken
PS Im going to email you Malcolm with a little bit of info that may cheer you up.

[ 05. December 2002, 12:58: Message edited by: Valura ]

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
7 months.

see what Home of Poi bred 7 months ago, in PK's photo. in the famous triangle meadows. whether they are active online or not, just imagine the many joys and who knows how many fallings out, new friendships, changes in informal leadership at all levels especially not among official leaders, the life-learnings, the moves tried, the moves mastered, the moves invented, the shows incubated, the frustrations, of this real world branches of our family in the next 7 months.

among the very most successful branches. and yet to be fair, PK tells us properly, these are only HoPers "that wanted to get in the pic." (*grin*sigh*raisedbrow*allatonce*)

PK, it is the aspiration of some of us across one ocean and one continent to foster so much family as you can so joyfully share with us now. & thank you for doing it before us, to show us one of the shining ways.

now as individuals, just as i have already given props, spontaneously and sincerely, to PiP/Clapham-London's hosts in the Sheffield thread, if everyone were to be as forgiving and caring as Valura, in whom even breakdowns of her own or others grow into new and wider friendships, this would be wonderful.

the bonfire with which your muse has been inspiring you, Malcolm, is such a worthy core identity and substance for Home of Poi. her voice is broad and "pure," as she is the flame herself.

keeping her flame in this world is an extraordinarily more complex matter, as all earthly things are impure compounds.

as its master tender, will you continue to welcome those who are less mature, skilled, or have different ways with themselves and people, believing equally sincerely in different stances than Valura?

can the bonfire's own dream of welcoming all prevail, or does it have its own morals, preferring some admirers and playmates more than others?

the answer makes the tended circle, through which those attracted pass through to be near the sacred flame and join those permitted, a very different animal/organization/ecosystem, though the flame will be her brilliant self from out of her hearth.

with all my love,

~ Mikie

molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Don't actually know what to say

Hey chief,

Its all . You've created something great that gives a huge amount

to alot of people . Its quite a scary concept to have created such

a huge acumulation of knowledge and coolness. You should be very proud of

this and of the fact that you have attracted so many dedicated, wonderfull people.

In my opinion , Its all good.

Love to all, peace out.

safe

[garbo]

[ 05. December 2002, 13:44: Message edited by: [garbo] ]

be excellent to each other: safe:

Posted: 4th Dec 2002

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Malcolm
All I have to say is job well done .What you have done here is beyond anything else I have run across Online ..Looking at this from both a
community and a bussiness stand point success has been achieved..
I am on other international level online groups such as this and yes they contain the edge of competition and sometimes ego based actions and reactions but such is life at least here in America..But that does make one strive to be better at their own art form..
The nice thing about most healthy communities
they seem to clean themsleves from those always
negative/stupid/or feel the only way to make themselves look better is by pointing out the shortcoming of another.. As Nyc said let the children do as they will after awhile they will find themselves sitting all alone and bore then leave . The same will go with those who proclaim
their self made titles and delousions of leadership..Our little peaceful group on the beach has banned any form of leadership or censorship and we try to keep ego to a min. This allows us to enjoy the fruits of freindship and the flame ..
As far as the prizes for COl I say keep them
the people who make it on the videos desevre something for their art form being sold..
As my great grand pappy(grandfather) from the hills of Tennesse always used to say "If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen "

Thats my two cents worth and I have a dime

Riz

I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all

Posted: 4th Dec 2002
Hello!
Er, read my signature before you read the post

I like NYC and FireMike's points (no, that it's a popularity contest).
HoP is alive and well and is a great now as it ever was! Like i's been said, there's always going to newbies, ego people, lovely people, patient elders. Just there's more of all of them now. So, HoP is great. Malcolm, when you look at it be happy. It also appears to be a great dating agency!

There is little negativety, and when there is it usually recovers or becomes self-moderated. As somebody who's been involved in some of the biggest and most heated debates I should know that afterwards everyone is still friendly to each other.

On other posts I've tlked about perception and how the way people react greatly affects other people. If we keep positive we'll all gain so much from here.

As to competitiveness, I think this has blown up too much. Sorry, but people are being too sensitive sometimes. I've thought about this quite a bit as I've improved and this is the way I see it.

When posting moves/videos/spinning in public and while travelling I can either limit how I spin to not intimidate people, or I can spin how I spin, fancy moves and all. What's the point in limiting myself? Well, people won't think I'm showing off and that can, but not often, be a big factor. However I have less fun and I'm basically lying to people.

The benefits of me spinning and using all my best tricks are many. Not only do I have more fun and advnace my own skill, but I inspire and teach other people. In the last 2 weeks a handfull of people in 3 cities have told me I'd inspired them and shown them that there's so much more possible with poi and even staff (yep, I was surprised too!). I opened people eyes to a whole bunch of new ideas. Maybe a couple of people thought I was showing off, but I'm not so I put this down as 'their loss'.

So, personally I think COL4 should be even more focues on great spinning. While it's great to see people spinning and loving it a lot of the COL videos are very much the same. I think the entry level should be set as advanced (like Sage, Shubaki, etc...) and the entries vetted (not judged because it needn't be a competition) by a wider panel of people. And entries should be of good quality, edited by the submitters, and show more than just fire, but the whole body movemenbt. This way COL4 could be a tool for people to advance their spinning to new levels, because that is what most people want when spinning - to puch themselves, learn and recieve joy from that. This is my opinion, I'm not trying to put down anyone who's starred in the COl vids, or Malcolm who spends so much time putting them together. But I think that this site and Malcolms products are about improving our spinning skills as well as our spiritual unification. It's not mutually exclusive.

My time's up, see you all later.