Page:
SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
NYC there's a difference between politeness and lying (Re: "Granny is fat").

There is also a difference between teaching simplified ideas and teaching lies. It irritates me that people teach things that aren't true, or that they don't say "This isn't an accurate model, but that's because the real one is far more complicated". Cos then when you hit A-Level or whatever the local equivalent the teachers are like "You must forget everything you learnt for the past 2 years". What?!? We just spent 2 years learning this censored!!!

But then I never liked chemistry anyway... wink tongue

And I think (devilsarmy) that every parent is aware their children will lie to them eventually. They may not like it, but few kids tell the whole truth to their parents, it's part of being a child/young person/teenager. However that should not be taken as encouragement to lie to your parents, particularly over things that matter.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
On teacher's behalf, most of the time you don't have the TIME to explain that this is a simpler model and now we're using a more complex model. I mean, I always make sure to do tell my kids that, but I wouldn't fault a teacher for not doing it. It always opens up a Pandora's box of questions that derail any attempts at actually learning anything productive.

Sometimes you need to say "Just learn this even though it's not completey true because it's on the test." It's not ideal, but what is?

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


Suibomaddict
577 posts
Location: Oregon, USA


Posted:
I think NYC's got a great concept of it. As a kid, I don't remember overly believing in Santa for very long, but I do remember enjoying my parents enjoyment of the Santa tradition. I remember late one particular night when it was past my bedtime and we were driving in a car, my folks pointed to a plane (lights in the sky) and told me that Santa was on his way.. Yes I knew it was a plane, but I could also believe that it could be Santa, and I had fun rushing home and getting in bed (just to get up shortly after and sneak to the stairs and watch my folks pretend to be santa, eatin the cookies and layin out presents).

I deeply cherish my ability to believe in things that don't exist and bring to life imaginings of fearie folk and forest spirits. I hope to pass that along to my child(ren). I surely don't want some teacher, or other cynical human, to tell my kid something doesn't exist just because they don't believe in magic. Too many people have let their inner child die, and it's often sad.

Will I lie if my boy asks me straight out if something exists? No. But I hope when that time comes that I can keep alive the beauty of tall tales.

*/me goes off to watch Big Fish again*

Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.

Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"


PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
Depends, are you looking at it from the historical perspective? Then yes there was, by a different name.

Real, absolutely. That would be me.

Idealistically, what the hell is wrong with allowing the kids to believe that unselfishly giving, that spreading joy and cheer, the very essence of Santa is real? It should be real all year long. And yes, my son does know it about more than receiving because we do an angel tree secret santa every year, and this year he wanted to give to two children.

So therefore, there is a Santa.

We all believe in myths and superstitions for a variety of reasons.
I don't lie to my child.
He asks, I answer and he *knows* this. Last year he wondered allowed about Santa. I told him if he wanted to know I would tell him, but also asked him if he thought of Santa as a real person or more like holiday spirit. He answered the latter and said he wasn't ready to know the full truth because he wanted magic a little while longer.
The real world creeps in all too quickly and takes over the child-like optimism of youth. Why deprive them of something that helps foster a generous and giving spirit, and a sense that there is magic in the world?
My son knows I wouldn't lie to him, so he simply does not ask.
He's 10, btw.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Pele, did the title of this thread catch your attention? ubblol

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


JayKittyGOLD Member
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA


Posted:
it caught my attention, lol. After reading the thread it does make sense. Although when I was younger signs like that always made me more curious.

Don't mind me, just passing through.


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
They still make me curious as hell.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


newgabeSILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia


Posted:
When my lad went to school in UK after his first 4 years in India and various Buddhist communnities, it was just before Halloween. So he got witches, ghosts, God, goblins, the Holy Ghost and Santa all pretty much at the same time. Took a while to figure out which invisible entity he was supposed to 'believe' in and not....

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
Written by: newgabe


When my lad went to school in UK after his first 4 years in India and various Buddhist communnities, it was just before Halloween. So he got witches, ghosts, God, goblins, the Holy Ghost and Santa all pretty much at the same time. Took a while to figure out which invisible entity he was supposed to 'believe' in and not....



We're supposed to believe in one?! Darn, I missed that bit out. Mind you with all the plagues and genocides and gratuitous wholesale destruction demanded by God I think it would be better for people to believe in Santa instead.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


TinklePantsGOLD Member
Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
4,219 posts
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr, United Kingdom


Posted:
People who work with children or have children understand the fact that kids need a little magic in their lives. Its not a question of lying.

Children shouldn't have access to all the truths (take note that not even us adults have access to all truths), they do not have the mental understanding of how the world works. Kids should grow up having no worries about the outside world, and yet they should be aware whats going on.
Plus they'd grow up being a know it all, spoiling the magic and the spirit for the rest of the kids.

It enriches their lives, and believing in stuff gives them hope. When they understand the reason behind our story weaving, they can help create a little magic themselves for the younger members of he family, and they will feel that creating a wonderful seasonal atmosphere is amazing.

I love giving. Give selflessly and only want a thank you in return. Its the way the world should be. (see, I have hope too!)

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
Never thought of it that way...

Magicians are really just professional liars.

wink

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


newgabeSILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia


Posted:
Written by: TinklePants


Children shouldn't have access to all the truths (take note that not even us adults have access to all truths)



This made me remember that when I was about 11 I found a book in the library caled '"The Facts of Life for Teenagers"
I was chuffed cos I thought I'd found THE book ubbidea the one that had all that stuff that adults knew that gave them Power and Authority. Read it. Harrumph, it was just about making babies and kissing and stuff Augh!! Ripped off! angry Knew those damned adults wouldn't give it away that easily...

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....


DevilsarmyBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,984 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom


Posted:
mmmm

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Tinklepants


People who work with children or have children understand the fact that kids need a little magic in their lives. Its not a question of lying.





Yeah, the magic comes from fiction, not believing lies. Most of the people supporting "Santa should be told to kids" state that you're ruining the "Magic" when you tell children that Santa doesn't exist. Well look at it this way, there wouldn't BE any magic to GET ruined if people didn't invent unecessary fictions to tell kids about things. If you want to encourage a child to give, then let them give something and feel the warm glow that comes from knowing you've made someone happy. NOT from telling them a man fits down a non-existant chimney to somehow magically give people presents. All six billion of them. In one night. Besides, santa doesn't teach kids anything at all that couldn't be instilled with the telling of some basic mythology. At least that's NOT:

1. Marketed to death
2. Judeo-Christian in origin
3. Monotonous

@ Newgabe: Goblins aren't invisible! I can see them now... grinning at me... waving their spears... devil

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
Written by: Sethis


Yeah, the magic comes from fiction, not believing lies.




From "Dictionary.com"

fic·tion- 2. A lie.

confused

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


DevilsarmyBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,984 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom


Posted:
why dont u do what someone else said further up in the thread (i cant remeber or find who) and tell ur kids that ur santa it solves all the problems, ur not lying to them and ur still letting them have magic in their lives

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name


earthdragonMember
62 posts
Location: nevada


Posted:
to tell a child that santa dont exist is to destroy there since of imagination as a parent i well continue to as some have put it lie in my eyes its keeping the imagination alive and that is inportant to me

DevilsarmyBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,984 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom


Posted:
its not destroying santa ur saying im ur santa thats not mean or hurtful my opinion i would of prefered that instead of the lie

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name


earthdragonMember
62 posts
Location: nevada


Posted:
but till my 2 year old and 4 year old ask me other wise santa lives with elves in the north pole and raindeer fly and so on and so forth with all santas magical buddies when the age comes i will tell santas real id

DevilsarmyBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,984 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom


Posted:
lol ok i can agree with that if they havent asked then no reason to tell

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
Article from The Onion

Spooky. wink

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


crowley2BRONZE Member
official hop cutie
272 posts
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton


Posted:
who here knows the real story of saint nick and why we have this myth hands up pls
*puts hand up to start every1 off*

The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
*sigh*
Funny NYC, when I go to Dictionary.com I get:

Written by: Dictionary.com



1 a. An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented.
1 b. The act of inventing such a creation or pretense.

2. A lie.

3 A. A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact.
3 B. The category of literature comprising works of this kind, including novels and short stories.

4. Law. Something untrue that is intentionally represented as true by the narrator.





So please don't insult our intelligence by making like there is only one definition of fiction i.e. A lie.

Santa is not literature. Therefore he is not fiction (definition 3a/b), which is the sense in which I was using the word originally; but is in fact definition 2.

Once more, people say "It will destroy the magic". The magic wouldn't BE there if you hadn't made them believe a fairy tale in the first place. That's your fault, not the fault of the people who say "Santa doesn't exist", because hey, he doesn't.

I'm with Roald Dahl, Jack (of the beanstalk variety) wasn't a hero, he was an ecological vandal. wink biggrin

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Is the magic not created by the parents? The feeling a parent has to prepare the celebration for the kids? I was more or less aware that "Santa" was my mum, but I thought she was sooo sweet doing this for us kids and she could slip back into her own childhood days...

It's all over in the air - give, selfless and want nothing in return...

Hence I see people run around in hectic, stress and frustration not to get x-mas presents in time... BE SELFLESS - once a year... If the spirit of Christmas treated for commercialism only - if it's corrupted and abused - isn't it time to get back into simplicity?

Santa Claus really existed and what he did was to set an example in very dark times, to bright up very depressing lives. This is the magic, no? To do something (that is not expected), even if it IS a lie in that very moment - to brighten someones day. Only for an instant or two make them smile,,, this is what gives (back) hope, no?

--- Practice random acts of beauty and senseless kindness ---

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
I'm reading an interesting article at the moment. Santa Clause: The Great Imposter i think you should all read it: Santa = Satan and preys on pre-teens because that is the time when their evangelical senses are forming.



umm

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


DevilsarmyBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,984 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom


Posted:
mmm u guys what happens if a little kid reads this ?

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name


Sakura_MoonHop's Kitten Jester.
1,803 posts
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
Santa isnt real?!

.:Pink Exocutioner:.

I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct...

Loving you from the deepest part of my loins.



DevilsarmyBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,984 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom


Posted:
now wat did i tell u, well im not saying anything

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name


MiGGOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia


Posted:
THanks for that article, Rouge. I'm saved now, no longer will i believe in the great liar Santa, because it's been proven to me that Santa is Thor is Satan. My word, i would be doomed had i not read that astounding pile of literary bovine excrete.

ubblol

Some people scare me. I wonder how long he'd put into that...

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: devilsarmy


mmm u guys what happens if a little kid reads this ?





That's why the thread says "Adults Only". Any kid who come into a thread titled like that deserves what they find. But hey, if they can't read the title, then they presumably can't read the posts. wink biggrin

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


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