Page: ......
MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


TeeJaymember
75 posts
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa


Posted:
I've got chickens...I love them dearly.
Their names are Maggie and Cluck.
I used to have four chickens - Sherry and Henny.
My dog got Henny , and Maggie and Cluck began beating up on Sherry.
Sherry ended up in the soup pot, which was quicker and less cruel than leaving her to her sisters - she was almost bald in the end.

Meat eating seems cruel only if you have lost touch with nature....if there are no carnivores, death can be very cruel.

Teejay

TeeJaymember
75 posts
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa


Posted:
One more reply - a little more to point....
I live in what is for most residents here a third world country.
I also have two daughters who decided on vegetarianism.
One ended up in the hospital here getting a blood due to acute anemia, the other (in the States) has also been found anemic.

As for it being cheaper to raise vegetables and grain than meat - I know first hand that in island countries at least, this is not true.
In (Western) Samoa, we have cattle - they feed on wild brush and forage for water as do wild animals - the only difference is that they are fenced in and that they are "helped" (we gather water for them during drought and suppliment their food).
We also have tons of chickens - all wild. They roost in the trees at night, we leave boxes ans such in safe places and they lay their eggs there. When a hen gets old, a rooster too nasty or mean, they end up soup. This causes the rest of the flock less suffering. Cows get culled the same way .
As far as vegetables - it takes MUCH more space to grow any crop....taro does okay, as well as banana, eggplant, and breadfruit. But you will never find a native Polynesian diet that is vegetarian - simply because complete proteins and B vitamins are impossible to obtain with a "natural" diet here.
If you study truly primitive societies, you will find meat was always eaten. In Polynesia - it would have been impossible to sustain a vegetarian diet on native foods.
The "primitive" diet consisted of fish, chicken, dog, pig, taro, banana, papaya, tapioca, mango, and seaweed.

Pretty much true throughout the world, it's hard to sustain a vegetarian diet on indiginous foods. I have a friend who spend a fortune importing foods for her vegetarian lifestlye - she's very thin and always sick.\

"Life away from the modern world for a week can cure most anything"

Teejay

Tao StarPooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol


Posted:
i think a reoccouring point here is that the meat eating is much more acceptable (especially to people who are vegetarian for moral reasons) if the meat source is natural and uncruel.

i try not to eat meat unless i know where it's come from, this means that i'm basically vegetarian most of the time until i go home to somerset & can but meat from friends' farms. so the diets described in the post above probably would be ok to some of the vegetarians here, but sadly in this country and others like it, the animals do not arrive on our plates in such a natural way, and being vegetarian is the only way for a lot of people to stick to their morals.

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Thanks for sharing your realistic and insightful examples TeeJay. I agree that much of the world is carbohydrate rich (rice/wheat) and protein deficient (pulses- beans, peas. lentils etc.), and meat is essential to provide the protein necessary for a healthy diet. And I can’t think of what pulse crops they would grow in countries where rice is the staple.



Back to the moral vegetarians. I’m still wondering how moral vegetarians can justify keeping meat eating pets like cats?



I’m also wondering how the anti GMO vegetarians are going to survive when the majority of the worlds soy bean production is based on GM cultivars?



Hmmmmmmmm.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Tao Star


i think a reoccouring point here is that the meat eating is much more acceptable (especially to people who are vegetarian for moral reasons) if the meat source is natural and uncruel.





Very true.

I mentioned some pages back that, I personally, have no quibble with primitive cultures taking meat eg hunter gatherers, either in the distant past or in the present.

For those in primitive conditions meat can be essential to survival; an extreme example would be eskimos living in a place where there is no vegetation whatsoever.

I simply maintain that those factors do not apply in the technologised west

Also, morally speaking, there is a distinction between an animal being killed and eaten as a culmination of its life spent in the wild, and the lives of animals raised as part of the western meat production process.

TeeJays points about animals being cheaper than plant crops are true in cases where the animals are roaming free as part of the landscape. Here, though the fact remains that they are consuming large amounts of vegetation to produce relatively small amounts of flesh, this is offset by the fact that the vegetation is wild growing and generally not edible by humans.

I'm sure a little reflection will show that this does not apply in the west.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Written by: TeeJay


When a hen gets old, a rooster too nasty or mean, they end up soup.




This reminds me of a funny moment on Emeril. He was showing how to do a beer-marinated chicken and when he put the chicken in the beer brine, he said, "Now he's happy! When I go, soak me in beer!" ubblol

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


TeeJaymember
75 posts
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa


Posted:
Hehe -

I usually soak ME in beer before I cook the chicken........especially if it's a chicken I know....

javascript:void(0)

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Actually, I find this reoccurring point that “meat eating is much more acceptable (especially to people who are vegetarian for moral reasons) if the meat source is natural and uncruel”, a bit fanciful if not hypocritical.

What is a natural meat source? Does it for example mean eating wild, possibly endangered animals? To me it’s a bit like the housewife in the television ad that says “its natural, so it must be good”. Remembering that strychnine is a natural product, as are many other poisons.

What is meant by an uncruel meat source? Farmers are not cruel by nature, and sheep and cows grazing grass in paddocks have a very idyllic life. So, I suppose it depends on the experience of the person holding the knife, but I doubt there would be any difference in the pain experienced by animals killed naturally or unnaturally. Or to put it another way, is it any less uncrule to kill an animal in a purpose built abattoir, compared to killing an animal by chasing it around a stockyard with a knife?

I don’t really see any distinction, morally speaking or not, between an animal being killed and eaten as a culmination of its life spent in the wild, and the lives of animals raised as part of the western meat production process. As in both situations animals are killed and eaten, except perhaps that an animal living in the wild could be endangered. Remembering, that we have been domesticating animals for thousands of years, and domestication is now part of the natural process.

I would suggest that all the “western meat production process” does is provide meat to people living in big cities. The real issue being population growth. Big cities incidentally, can occur in both the east and the west, so I really don’t see the point.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I guess there's a scale of cruelty that humans inflict on animals; at one end we have primitive cultures who hunt an animal in the wild, which has led its life in nature.

At the other end we have battery hens packed into spaces so small that they can't flap their wings, who have their beaks burnt off because their lives are so horrific that they peck at the others around them and turn cannibal.

The issue here isn't the end of their lives (you're right that an animal killed in the wild can suffer greatly), but the whole of their lives.

Along the way are the other forms of western meat production, and certainly I, if sheep are indeed living 'idyllic lives in the pastures' have no objections.

There's other scales involved on the moral issue, for example, need and luxury.

Primitives have a need for meat (to survive), most westerners have no need (with the exeption of some who need it for medical reasons), but eat it for luxury or out of habit.

-------

Lastly Stone, I've mentioned my frustration and feelings that in the past you've not invested as much effort into reading my replies as I would like.

This is not good for me, or for you. There's no point putting the whole blame on your shoulders, I'm sure that I'm also responsible.

Nevertheless, I feel we should address it, otherwise I'll end up not responding to your questions at all, so I'll request that, if you respond to the above reply, that you address or acknowledge what I've said there, rather than just come up with a new set of objections.

And, if you perhaps feel that I'm not giving sufficient respect to your points, feel free to point that out as well.

Given some of the other misunderstandings that have arisen on this board in recent weeks, and the tone on this thread, I think it's important to at least make an attempt at addressing this.

Respect,

Dave.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Umm, me guilty of skimming the odd post, never ubbangel

Ok from the top:

Battery hens are primarily used for egg production, not meat. Even so, it is a misconception to say that their lives are so horrific that they peck at the others and turn cannibal. Pecking, as in pecking order, is a natural occurrence. And birds will peck regardless of their housing arrangements. Not sure about cannibalism, perhaps if a bird dies?

Have you ever been into a cage house to witness the happiness of the birds? I would suggest that the birds are probably a lot happier than a photograph would show. What may seem cruel to you or I, is not necessarily how a bird feels.

In Australia, most livestock is grazed on open pastures (not many feedlots) and I have often thought that domesticated animals have pretty good lives. No stress, with plenty of food and water, grazing under the sun; it’s a cow life.

Meat is a luxury, and I think we are a bit complacent when it comes to acknowledging how our meat is produced, and we eat far too much meat. However, I maintain that a small amount of meat in the diet is important for health. My point here is that meat is necessary because it is a natural source of Vitamin B 12, and it is natural to eat meat.

Contrary to popular belief, while Marmite is a rich source of the vitamin B complex; vitamin B12 is not naturally found in yeast extract, but is added to Marmite during manufacture.


smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I'd say the pecking thing is again a matter of scale.

I agree that some pecking is inevitable whatever the housing.

But in battery houses and free range barns the majority of birds are debeaked as a matter of course.

I'm happy for animals to lead idyllic lives on the farm, but I'm not happy with a system in which the burning off of beaks is a matter of course.

Basically I'm content to eat eggs that come from chickens that have genuine access to free run outside.

I will not eat eggs that come from chickens that have had their beaks burnt off.

And I would like to see such practices acknowledged as being immoral, and for them to be made illegal.

-----------------

I agree with you that a small amount of meat in the diet is not necessarily a bad thing.

I know that it is not essential for health as I, and many others live healthy lives without it.

I do however, qualify my beliefs with the fact that, for some, it may be essential (eg medical reasons, or those who tend to become anemic etc)

It would be good if you did something similar when you say, as you have on several occasions, that some meat is important for health.

Because, for many, it obviously isn't that important.

As for marmite, when it hits the shelves it's got B12 in it, whether its a part of the process, or added during manufacture, the important thing is that it has B12, and is thus of value to vegans (who eat no animal produce)

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:


I know that it is not essential for health as I, and many others live healthy lives without it. (meat)






That’s a big statement. How do you know meat is not essential? I think that’s a bit subjective, even speculative, to say meat is not essential for health, based on you assumption that because you and others appear to live healthy lives without meat. You would not know how healthy you could be in comparison, if you did include a small amount of meat, nor do you know the long term consequences of a particular vegetarian diet. Agreed, it’s a bit hard to prove one way or the other. But to me, it’s like bit like saying it is ok to use a certain illicit drug because me and my friends are not suffering any side effects at the present.





U have edited your post so some of my comments may be out of date.
EDITED_BY: Stone (1091067413)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:


It would be good if you did something similar when you say, as you have on several occasions, that some meat is important for health.


Meat is packed with essential minerals that a vegetarian may lack if not careful. Check any vegetarian web site.



I would suggest that beak-trimming looks worse than it actually is. Recent evidence in Australia and from Europe indicates that beak-trimming at hatch or soon after results in little long term pain and research suggests that beak-trimming at this age will reduce injurious feather pecking and cannibalism in later life (Australian literature review, long pdf file). Even if this practice still seems unacceptable then you can avoid poultry products, which is different to avoiding all meat products.



The point about the marmite was that if you need supplements then it is not natural (natural being what is found in nature). To my mind, it seems appropriate to consume products where these vitamins occur naturally ie.meat, compared to what I suspect are artificial supplements.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Marmite isn't supplemented with B-12. It has it naturally.

I would still argue that a non-meat centered diet is more healthy than a meat-centered one. There are no nutrients that are found exclusively in meat that are required for health or life.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Lightning, if you suggest that Marmite is a natural source of B-12, then u need provide a source.


'Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals." (vegetarian society). Also see other link Marmite for more info on B12 and Marmite.

I’m not arguing for a meat centered diet. I think we eat way too much meat, but I think that including some meat in the diet is acceptable.

I would be very interested in any comments on the following meat based diet, available as a pdf file from this site: CSIRO Total Well Being Diet



smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Stone









That’s a big statement. How do you know meat is not essential? I think that’s a bit subjective, even speculative, to say meat is not essential for health, based on you assumption that because you and others appear to live healthy lives without meat. You would not know how healthy you could be in comparison, if you did include a small amount of meat, nor do you know the long term consequences of a particular vegetarian diet. Agreed, it’s a bit hard to prove one way or the other. But to me, it’s like bit like saying it is ok to use a certain illicit drug because me and my friends are not suffering any side effects at the present.








What I'm saying is that meat is not essential for health in my case and the case of the many vegetarians/vegans in the world who are healthy.



As I, and they are healthy, that shows that meat is not essential for health.



Once again you're trying to fudge the issue by asking how I know we couldn't be healthier.



We're healthy and we don't eat meat, many of us for decades or even lifetimes (to address your query about the long term consequences)- that constitues very strong practical evidence that meat is not essential for health.



Could we be even healthier if we ate some meat?



I don't know, but-



a. it's not relevant as I was pointing out that meat is not essential for health (ie 'superhealth' wasn't a factor in what I was talking about)



b. the existence of successful vegetarian atheletes would suggest that extremely high levels of, if not necessarily health, then certainly muscular and cardiovascular fitness, can be built and maintained on a non-meat diet. Given the stress imposed on the immune systems of competing atheletes by the training, for vegetarian atheletes to be successful would suggest that they must, as well as being very fit, also be healthy.



Could you reflect on what I'm saying about 'fudging'?



It would have been nice if you'd at least acknowledged my point that meat is not essential for heath, before you slipped in the stuff about degrees of health.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


FabergGOLD Member
veteran
1,459 posts
Location: Dublin, Ireland


Posted:
Dave, i agree with you 100%.

i became a vegetarian at about 15 years of age. i'm now 34. i also don't eat eggs, as aside from the de-beaking issue, i cannot except the fact that ALL male chicks are suffocated or gassed or ground up (sometimes alive) at a day old.

i'm probably a little overweight for my height, but i eat chocolate almost every day, so i know the cause of it smile

with the exception of breaking 1 tooth through a fall a number of years ago, my teeth are fine, i DO NOT have 1 filling, nor have i ever had a toothache. (believe me, that's a rarity in a 34 year old)

i do a lot of hiking & trekking at the weekends and am heading off to the himalayas this october. i also practise tai chi & chi gung every day.

i woudn't necessarily call myself a health freak, as i can be as lethargic as the next person from time to time, but i resent being told that eating meat is essential in order to maintain good health!

with regard to longterm consequences, i'd like to give another example.

a friend of mine, who is 37, has been a vegetarian since she was in her mid teens. she met and married a vegetarian, and they have brought up 2 perfectly healthy children on a vegetarian diet. their son is 14, almost 5' 8" in height and plays on nearly every sportsteam at school. as is usual with kids, they will get sick and have to attend the doctor, but never once have my friends been told by their gp that either of their children were lacking in any vitamin or mineral. so i do believe that with a little extra care and attention paid to the foods we eat, meat is not essential in order to maintain good health.

and just to close off, i'd like to clear something up about the vitamin B12 issue.

stone, do you realise that both meateaters and veggies alike obtain most of their vitamin B12 from fortified foodstuffs?

you've made a continuous point that a 'small' amount of meat is naturally required by our bodies as animal products are the only natural source of vitamin B12.

a small amount of meat often doesn't provide you with 100% of the RDA of B12, so you unless you're big into eating liver every day, most non-veggies also obtain most of their vitamin B12 intake from fortified foods such as milk & cornflakes for breakfast tongue

peace & love peace

Lisa

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Actually, I'm mistaken. Marmite does have B-12 added. Nutritional yeast is a natural source, though.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
OWD said “Could you reflect on what I'm saying about fudging?”

lol: Dave, read the thread from the beginning and you tell me about fudging. Yes, I’ve picked up a few points along he way. You guys really had me worried with that “morning glory” one. Then, what was that analogy about serving the flesh of humans in restaurants. The infamous black and white photos. Or all the other religious, emotive and unscientific arguments presented to justify your cause. Bottom line: I am not a cannibal and I do have the right to speak on injustice.

Faberge, I got my info on B12 from the vegetarian society ie. reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. Yes a small point, and perhaps less relevant now than in a previous discussion on the origins of omnivores/carnivores. However, the point shows that humans need animal products to satisfy their dietary requirements, without supplements. Might I also remind people that “battery houses” are used for egg production, as this is another emotive card that is often played indiscriminatively.

By my calculations you would probably need to eat about 10 - 50 g of Marmite a day to satisfy the B 12 requirement.
Vit B 12 requirement for teenagers & adults (1.2 - 1.5ug/day)
Yeast extracts contains b/t 2 - 50ug/100g B 12.

A bit of history. “Vegetarianism is not new. The word "vegetarian" was invented in 19th century. Early Greek thinkers advocated a vegetarian diet in reaction to over-indulgence in animal flesh and wine. Excesses finally gave birth to the vegetarian movement in both Greece and Rome. Pythagoras (6th century B.C.) argued for vegetarianism on the basis of transmigration of souls between humans and animals. Plato (5th-4th centuries B.C.) drew sharp distinction between the rational soul of humans and appetitive soul of animals and claimed that superior rational humans naturally rule over inferior appetitive animals. He characterized animal existence as "beastly", sexually wanton, lawless, murderous, and warlike, but was sympathetic to vegetarianism as an ideal. Aristotle (4th century B.C.) claimed that animals with a lower type (sensitive) soul are meant to serve the purposes of humans, who have a higher type (rational) soul. This idea has heavily influenced to the present day a Western anthropocentric view of animals (Magel 1989)”. [South Dakota Uni


wave

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Let us not forget that a good portion of the population of India is vegetarian. And they seem to be reproducing just fine.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Stone




lol: Dave, read the thread from the beginning and you tell me about fudging. Yes, I’ve picked up a few points along he way. You guys really had me worried with that “morning glory” one. Then, what was that analogy about serving the flesh of humans in restaurants. The infamous black and white photos. Or all the other religious, emotive and unscientific arguments presented to justify your cause. Bottom line: I am not a cannibal and I do have the right to speak on injustice.






So I guess your answer to my question "Could you reflect on what I'm saying about fudging?" is 'no'.

Fair enough.

Whatever's happened in the past I'm currently focusing on the here and now, and I've blatently been making a sincere effort to get this discussion away from emotive arguments and linguistic tricks.

But like I said before, if you don't wish to address this problem, then I'd rather focus my replies to those who are going to respect them.

I've put forward my feelings of what I don't like about your approach to this discussion, and I've asked you to put forward anything you don't like about mine (my approach here and now, not 5 pages back).

If you don't wish to do so then fine, but, until you do, there's no point me discussing vegetarianism with you.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
I was leaving:

But I don’t understand Lightning’s response “Let’s not forget that a good portion of the population of India is vegetarian. And they seem to be reproducing just fine.” Perhaps it’s a set up? Well a good percentage of the Indian population live in abject poverty where starvation is an everyday occurrence in this protein starved country. It has been my observation that “survival” is paramount, and even when things are extremely bad, we still manage to sow our seed. Or was it a reference to declining fertility rates in the West? Perhaps diet induced?

OWD said “if you don't wish to do so then fine, but, until you do, there's no point me discussing vegetarianism with you.”

Does that mean I’ve won? wink wink wink Look, I’ve presented some good data and supplied links to some premier Australian research sites, and I really do take exception to this reoccurring threat of yours that you will “pack up your marbles and leave”. I grew up on a dairy farm, and perhaps I overact, but by the same token you should appreciate that it is also difficult to wade through some of the emotive stuff that gets presented as fact.

To be perfectly honest I don’t know if meat is essential for heath. IMO eating meat is part of the natural process for our species, so I don’t see why I should be condemned for it, or is it that I am a “barbarian" who is yet to evolve to a higher level of existence?


beerchug

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I've found some of your replies annoying, I can't expect you to address that unless I tell you what I find annoying; so I've been telling you.

You seem to be saying that what you find difficult is emotive stuff presented as fact, so, if in my recent posts I've presented something emotive as fact then the best thing is for you to point it out, then we can resolve it.

From my point of view, I'd very much prefer that you keep it to one specific example initially, so I can deal with it properly.

As for 'packing up my marbles and leaving'; what I'm trying to say is that I'm unhappy with your approach to this discussion on vegetarianism, and I'm not going to continue it until we establish some mutually agreeable guidelines as to how it's going to continue.

I think that's understandable and fair; I've certainly been above board and open about it.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
For crying out loud Dave, what do you want me to do, apologise for not agreeing with you?

Are u trying to start a “flame war”?

To be candid, I find your autocratic attitude annoying, especially when you start moderating others peoples threads or prohibit discussion in a discussion forum.

But hey, I’m not complaining. I’ll discuss issues with all here, hopefully without prejudice. So stick YOUR guidelines, I’m happy with the HOP guidelines. I hope this is as close to breaking them as I get for while. Chill


peace

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
No, Stone. It's about the fact that before rampant overpopulation, generations of Hindus have done just fine on vegetarian diets.

The point is that meat is not necessary for health. I am going to emphasize MEAT, as opposed to animal products in general. Veganism is a different story, entirely. And it does require supplementation.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Stone



For crying out loud Dave, what do you want me to do, apologise for not agreeing with you?








No

Written by: Stone



Are u trying to start a “flame war”?








No



Written by: Stone



Chill








rolleyes Likewise to you Stone.



I've tried my best.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Ok Lightning, perhaps it is a bit over the top to suggest that meat is essential for survival. But is meat necessary, as part of a balanced diet, to achieving our maximum genetic potential? And I also think that overpopulation is cause of many of the processes that moral vegetarians appear to object to.

I’ve been looking at a few vegetarian sites, and I would like to seem some quantification when people say medical studies prove or many scientific studies have concluded; like in the following quote for example. Because I suspect that if the studies were undertake, then all they are really saying that over eating meat causes all these problems.

Written by:

Medical studies prove that a vegetarian diet is easier to digest, provides a wider range of nutrients and imposes fewer burdens and impurities on the body. Vegetarians are less susceptible to all the major diseases that afflict contemporary humanity, and thus live longer, healthier, more productive lives. They have fewer physical complaints, less frequent visits to the doctor, fewer dental problems and smaller medical bills. Their immune system is stronger, their bodies are purer, more refined and skin more beautiful. Those who eat flesh are far more likely to contract cancer than those following a vegetarian diet are. Meat-eaters ingest excessive amounts of cholesterol, making them dangerously susceptible to heart attacks. Many scientific studies have concluded that eating meat can seriously damage your health.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:

well spanner,

my suggestion would be to ask the CSIRO.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MrMooseMember
3 posts

Posted:
Peoples reasons for being or not being vegetarian vary wildly. From a moral point of I think there's valid reasons for either.

Alot of people I guess are vegetarian because they don't like the idea of cute animals being killed or for some other animal "rights" reason. I guess it's plainly obvious that this view considers animal rights as being of greater moral significance.

I am deliberatly not a vegetarian because I believe there's an equally compelling moral argument to eat meat. From a conservation point of view meat production on a small scale using traditional techniques is responsible for 90% of our so called natural habitat and the various species that live there. Important ecosystems like, hay meadows, water meadows, moor land, heath, chalk down lands only exist because we eat meat. If we all became vegetarian then the countryside would be vast monoculture plains and incredibly undiverse.

Obviously sources of meat are important for that card to be played and industrially produced meat is hugely damaging from and environmental and conservation view point. The animal rights issue I believe is largely irrelevant as animals die whether we eat them or not. How they live their lives is far more important. free range and organic meat provides the animals with a natural and happy life, has enormous conservation benefits and the meat is usually far better quality and more tasty aswell. Bonus all round.

darkpoetBRONZE Member
Irish
525 posts
Location: Dallas.........ish, USA


Posted:
.....if we start getting a breed of people w\o incisors...then ill be a vegitarian...look at our teeth...were supposed to eat meat!
meat=good
and have you ever seen a healthy looking vegitarian??
no! theyre all anemic and a slate clammy gray colour
yeah....im all for equal treatment of animals...but personally...we need to fix the ecosystem we screwed up so royally first...then worry about how to treat our food...

Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


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