Forums > Social Chat > Gay marriage
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HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
So quite out of the blue last week, the Massachusetts Supreme Court decided that gay marriage is now legal in the state of Massachusetts. This sets up an interesting legal situation because there is a federal law called the "Defense Of Marriage Act" (DOMA) that defines a marriage as a union between one man and one woman.
However, the Constitution has an "Establishment Clause" that basically says that one state must grant full faith and credit to any establishment of another state, including a marriage. So if Jon and Steve get married in Massachusetts, all other states have to recognize the marriage. DOMA is clearly unconstitutional and will get knocked down no problem.
But what strikes me is the public outcry. People start spouting Bible this and Jesus that. The hatred is killing me. I feel unsafe and I desperately want to flee the country.
WHY is it that Americans can't seem to get the idea through their thick skulls that the Constitution, and NOT THE BIBLE, is the law of the land? Why is it that Americans are so friggin' hateful and bigoted? Of all first-world nations, we are the most religiously extreme, the most bigoted, and in general the most socially backward. When did this happen?
And how can we change this?
So quite out of the blue last week, the Massachusetts Supreme Court decided that gay marriage is now legal in the state of Massachusetts. This sets up an interesting legal situation because there is a federal law called the "Defense Of Marriage Act" (DOMA) that defines a marriage as a union between one man and one woman.
However, the Constitution has an "Establishment Clause" that basically says that one state must grant full faith and credit to any establishment of another state, including a marriage. So if Jon and Steve get married in Massachusetts, all other states have to recognize the marriage. DOMA is clearly unconstitutional and will get knocked down no problem.
But what strikes me is the public outcry. People start spouting Bible this and Jesus that. The hatred is killing me. I feel unsafe and I desperately want to flee the country.
WHY is it that Americans can't seem to get the idea through their thick skulls that the Constitution, and NOT THE BIBLE, is the law of the land? Why is it that Americans are so friggin' hateful and bigoted? Of all first-world nations, we are the most religiously extreme, the most bigoted, and in general the most socially backward. When did this happen?
And how can we change this?
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
i totally hear ya mike. first off, yay for massachusetts. i've been protesting the DOMA for awhile now and have sent many a letters to all the politicians. not that it'll necessarily do anything, but it's a start. the hatred and intolerance in this country completely saddens me. so i fight every day to combat it, from the big legal stuff to the small things like slang people use. some people don't understand why i fight the small things, but it's such a small but important step.
anyways, it's late, and i'll stop my mini rant for now. i'm in complete agreement and supportive of what you're feeling mike. you can count on me if you ever need to rant or whatever.
i totally hear ya mike. first off, yay for massachusetts. i've been protesting the DOMA for awhile now and have sent many a letters to all the politicians. not that it'll necessarily do anything, but it's a start. the hatred and intolerance in this country completely saddens me. so i fight every day to combat it, from the big legal stuff to the small things like slang people use. some people don't understand why i fight the small things, but it's such a small but important step.
anyways, it's late, and i'll stop my mini rant for now. i'm in complete agreement and supportive of what you're feeling mike. you can count on me if you ever need to rant or whatever.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step
Posted:
i too find it rediculios how people can be so hateful to one another... and isnt it a basic christian teaching to treat others how you expect them to treat you? .. i may be wrong i didnt pay much attention in R.E.
i too find it rediculios how people can be so hateful to one another... and isnt it a basic christian teaching to treat others how you expect them to treat you? .. i may be wrong i didnt pay much attention in R.E.
she who sees from up high smiles
Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*
member
81 posts
Location: EIndhoven, Holland
81 posts
Location: EIndhoven, Holland
Posted:
I live in holland, where gay marriage is legid for about four years now(or in that range) and I just can't believe that there still are people who just hate people because they are gay.
A lot of them hide behind their false faith. Here it are the moslims who hide behind the koran, and when its ramadam(where they don't eat) they don't participate.
In America it's the christians(typo?) who think its something the bible forbids. Rediculous! Sure it was adam and eva, but who gives a crap? She was taken from a males rib, so basically she's part man too(confuses me, cause all men where woman a while in your mothers belly
).
But people just hide behind it because they can freely hate the people with a reason ther than "they are different."
I have a few friends who are gay and people tend to ask me if I'm not scared for them. As in; "Don't you think they love you or something? Don't you feel looked at?"
And that is the greatest bull I have ever heared. They are not amimals or something like that! But some people think they might just jump on me and...well do some nasty things.
People are so stupid when it comes to something that is different than theirselves.
Blergh, this pisses me off...
I live in holland, where gay marriage is legid for about four years now(or in that range) and I just can't believe that there still are people who just hate people because they are gay.
A lot of them hide behind their false faith. Here it are the moslims who hide behind the koran, and when its ramadam(where they don't eat) they don't participate.
In America it's the christians(typo?) who think its something the bible forbids. Rediculous! Sure it was adam and eva, but who gives a crap? She was taken from a males rib, so basically she's part man too(confuses me, cause all men where woman a while in your mothers belly
). But people just hide behind it because they can freely hate the people with a reason ther than "they are different."
I have a few friends who are gay and people tend to ask me if I'm not scared for them. As in; "Don't you think they love you or something? Don't you feel looked at?"
And that is the greatest bull I have ever heared. They are not amimals or something like that! But some people think they might just jump on me and...well do some nasty things.
People are so stupid when it comes to something that is different than theirselves.
Blergh, this pisses me off...
SILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
I hate to say it, babe, but a lot of places in the world are the same. Australia is only slowly progressing. And whilst we have less of the violent outcry, we have a very strong conservative element that works hard to quash all debate.
These things are always difficult at the beginning.
I hate to say it, babe, but a lot of places in the world are the same. Australia is only slowly progressing. And whilst we have less of the violent outcry, we have a very strong conservative element that works hard to quash all debate.
These things are always difficult at the beginning.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
Posted:
There may be a huge influx of people moving to Mass to take advantage of this new law before Bush and his cronies have it repealed.
People are generally intolerant because they have been brought up my people who are themselves intolerant. Abuse and alchoholism are passed on, so too are other bad traits.
This cycle stops only when those few people who are perceptive enough to take a good look at what has been done to them by their parents manage to stop it by force of will and foresight.
Raph
There may be a huge influx of people moving to Mass to take advantage of this new law before Bush and his cronies have it repealed.
People are generally intolerant because they have been brought up my people who are themselves intolerant. Abuse and alchoholism are passed on, so too are other bad traits.
This cycle stops only when those few people who are perceptive enough to take a good look at what has been done to them by their parents manage to stop it by force of will and foresight.
Raph
I don't want a title.
940 posts
940 posts
Posted:
It's a scary, scary world.
It generally seems that both east coast and west coast people are liberal enough to follow the Constitution instead of the Bible. It's those people in the middle of the country that are mad. (Seattle isn't bad, I'm told. Lots of rain keeps them sane. Likewise Chicago, near large bodies of water.) How come people need large bodies of water in order to stay sane?
More seriously - I actually think it's going to get better. Bush and Ashcroft are so ultra-conservative that the tide seems to be turning against them a bit. When you put a face on the evil as they do, even the conservatives have to pause and think about what they're saying.
It's a scary, scary world.
It generally seems that both east coast and west coast people are liberal enough to follow the Constitution instead of the Bible. It's those people in the middle of the country that are mad. (Seattle isn't bad, I'm told. Lots of rain keeps them sane. Likewise Chicago, near large bodies of water.) How come people need large bodies of water in order to stay sane?
More seriously - I actually think it's going to get better. Bush and Ashcroft are so ultra-conservative that the tide seems to be turning against them a bit. When you put a face on the evil as they do, even the conservatives have to pause and think about what they're saying.
E pluribus unum, baby.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
If it makes you feel any better, I haven't heard much outcry in either my ultraliberal neighborhood or my moderately conservative work. The only thing that the news seemed to cling on to was the fact that it did seem to be out of the blue.
Also, always keep in perspective the magnitide of the outcry. 6 priests from Kentucky isn't an outcry.
If it makes you feel any better, I haven't heard much outcry in either my ultraliberal neighborhood or my moderately conservative work. The only thing that the news seemed to cling on to was the fact that it did seem to be out of the blue.
Also, always keep in perspective the magnitide of the outcry. 6 priests from Kentucky isn't an outcry.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
ambiguous
646 posts
Location: Mpls, MN, USA
646 posts
Location: Mpls, MN, USA
Posted:
Well for one thing, the Massachusetts governor is fighting this, so it may not go through how it was intended or at all. And while DOMA is clearly unconstitutional I don't have your confidence in believing it'll be knocked down. Considering the strong possibility that Bush will be re-elected, I doubt anything pro-gay marraige will go through for many years, personally I'm prepared for our government to start making more steps backwards.
Well for one thing, the Massachusetts governor is fighting this, so it may not go through how it was intended or at all. And while DOMA is clearly unconstitutional I don't have your confidence in believing it'll be knocked down. Considering the strong possibility that Bush will be re-elected, I doubt anything pro-gay marraige will go through for many years, personally I'm prepared for our government to start making more steps backwards.
_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................
SILVER Member
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
old hand
899 posts
Location: New York City, USA
Posted:
Heh.
6 priests from Kentucky are the Clampetts.
Raph
Quote:
Also, always keep in perspective the magnitide of the outcry. 6 priests from Kentucky isn't an outcry.
Heh.
6 priests from Kentucky are the Clampetts.
Raph
SILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA
Posted:
bush being re-elected? even the people who actually DID vote for him are now wishing they hadn't. perhaps it's just what i see from the people i hang out with, but i don't see him getting re-relected at all.
bush being re-elected? even the people who actually DID vote for him are now wishing they hadn't. perhaps it's just what i see from the people i hang out with, but i don't see him getting re-relected at all.
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
1. Going to have to agree that I do not see Bush being re-elected at all. People in his own state are already speaking out against him. I'd wager even his own advisors want him gone after the numerous times he stupidly improvved speeches.
2. I think there is a huge confusion between hatred and fear. KKK, skinheads and Black Panther Party have hatred. It is a seething, nasty ugliness they want to spread like a disease. But they tend not to use a bible as their weapon and when they talk the literal hate drips from their tongues like a black oil.
Fear is something totally different, and is what most people have. It is what causes people to quote biblical verses and others to literally call me a witch for doing my job. By nurture people fear what they do not understand and out of laziness they choose not to educate themselves. They are fully responsible for their own ignorance, however the most they will do is fling a rosary at you (not kidding, I have had it happen to me) and some choice words in an attempt to...and here are the key words...save YOUR soul and by doing this ridding the world of something they have no comprehension of. They fear the difference and try to use their desire to do good in the world to get to heaven as an excuse to incessently misquote the bible.
And anyone who knows very devoutely religious people will tell you that those with extreme religious conviction believe that "God's law" supercedes any human written law. And these are not the people to be feared, except for when they are in a position of legal power (like Bush). What they will do is attempt to oppress, which can be fought against. With my runnings in with them they are generally not violent and are more verbally offensive than anything. They also follow the law, which is a key difference. They can talk til they are blue in the face for all I care. I am still going to be who I want.
The fearful far outnumber the haters in this day and age, thank goodness. Does that make their behaviour right or acceptible? Nope, but understanding where they come from is one step closer to solving the issues at hand, one little thing at a time.
It is in this respect that I also agree with NYC in ignoring the few. Would you rather impede someone's right to freespeech so that you don't have to listen to them? There is very little difference in my eyes at that point in trying to shut them up or them trying to stop free will. They can be ignored.
3. This is not out of the blue. The entire thing started over two years ago with two men who wanted to be married. It made the media then and dropped off because it was caught in litigation for so long. As PWB said, fighting quietly and properly for a new law is not nearly as press making as fighting vocally to change an exsisting one (okay, so it isn't a direct quote!
). It finally came to the law point after many years, and so thusly regains its 15 seconds of fame.
4. And about running away. First of all, we are human and products of our social raising, therefore, you will run into fear and hatred no matter where you go (except maybe Hawaii...it's legal and fairly isolated there..aloha). Running is the cowards answer, not a self preservationist perspective or any form of a solution. In this case, for example, these men fought bravely and quietly enough to slip under the media radar for change, and they got it. Sure the fight isn't over but they stood their ground. I truly and wholeheartedly feel that if you do not have the intention to stand for your convictions, then you have no right to speak out about them either. You either keep quiet and run, or you stay and stand. And taking a stand does not mean rallies and parades. It does not mean painted signs and war cries. It does not mean sit-ins and in your face antics. It means living life as best as you can the way you want to, be damned what others think, and hurtling obstacles as they come. Some people make things into so much more than they need to be and really bring stigma onto themselves.
So, run if you feel the need, but don't go around telling people how unfair it is that people get treated so badly when you are not willing to stick around and try to change it. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
*Note: I apologize if that sounds harsh, and Mike you know I love you dearly and I think you are an amazing man, but I am really sick of the pointing the fingers and "why???" crap that seems to plague the "minority activists" (gays, blacks, feminists, two headed purple people eaters, etc..). I have crossed those religious-fear lines and had things yelled at me I would never concider saying, and I held my head high. I told a room full of professionals what I do for a living a couple weeks ago and was told that if I went to the school of this one woman's child that there would be picketting for me being a witch. And I was treated by some of the people in the class accordingly. I have dealt with it as a young single mom, and as a woman, and even at one point as a bisexual in a female relationship. No one has the right to complain if all they are going to do is run anyway. The best answer to any of this is educate the young to not be afraid and to not hate (which will take generations) and to live as best as you can yourself, passionately and strongly.
1. Going to have to agree that I do not see Bush being re-elected at all. People in his own state are already speaking out against him. I'd wager even his own advisors want him gone after the numerous times he stupidly improvved speeches.
2. I think there is a huge confusion between hatred and fear. KKK, skinheads and Black Panther Party have hatred. It is a seething, nasty ugliness they want to spread like a disease. But they tend not to use a bible as their weapon and when they talk the literal hate drips from their tongues like a black oil.
Fear is something totally different, and is what most people have. It is what causes people to quote biblical verses and others to literally call me a witch for doing my job. By nurture people fear what they do not understand and out of laziness they choose not to educate themselves. They are fully responsible for their own ignorance, however the most they will do is fling a rosary at you (not kidding, I have had it happen to me) and some choice words in an attempt to...and here are the key words...save YOUR soul and by doing this ridding the world of something they have no comprehension of. They fear the difference and try to use their desire to do good in the world to get to heaven as an excuse to incessently misquote the bible.
And anyone who knows very devoutely religious people will tell you that those with extreme religious conviction believe that "God's law" supercedes any human written law. And these are not the people to be feared, except for when they are in a position of legal power (like Bush). What they will do is attempt to oppress, which can be fought against. With my runnings in with them they are generally not violent and are more verbally offensive than anything. They also follow the law, which is a key difference. They can talk til they are blue in the face for all I care. I am still going to be who I want.
The fearful far outnumber the haters in this day and age, thank goodness. Does that make their behaviour right or acceptible? Nope, but understanding where they come from is one step closer to solving the issues at hand, one little thing at a time.
It is in this respect that I also agree with NYC in ignoring the few. Would you rather impede someone's right to freespeech so that you don't have to listen to them? There is very little difference in my eyes at that point in trying to shut them up or them trying to stop free will. They can be ignored.
3. This is not out of the blue. The entire thing started over two years ago with two men who wanted to be married. It made the media then and dropped off because it was caught in litigation for so long. As PWB said, fighting quietly and properly for a new law is not nearly as press making as fighting vocally to change an exsisting one (okay, so it isn't a direct quote!
). It finally came to the law point after many years, and so thusly regains its 15 seconds of fame.4. And about running away. First of all, we are human and products of our social raising, therefore, you will run into fear and hatred no matter where you go (except maybe Hawaii...it's legal and fairly isolated there..aloha). Running is the cowards answer, not a self preservationist perspective or any form of a solution. In this case, for example, these men fought bravely and quietly enough to slip under the media radar for change, and they got it. Sure the fight isn't over but they stood their ground. I truly and wholeheartedly feel that if you do not have the intention to stand for your convictions, then you have no right to speak out about them either. You either keep quiet and run, or you stay and stand. And taking a stand does not mean rallies and parades. It does not mean painted signs and war cries. It does not mean sit-ins and in your face antics. It means living life as best as you can the way you want to, be damned what others think, and hurtling obstacles as they come. Some people make things into so much more than they need to be and really bring stigma onto themselves.
So, run if you feel the need, but don't go around telling people how unfair it is that people get treated so badly when you are not willing to stick around and try to change it. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
*Note: I apologize if that sounds harsh, and Mike you know I love you dearly and I think you are an amazing man, but I am really sick of the pointing the fingers and "why???" crap that seems to plague the "minority activists" (gays, blacks, feminists, two headed purple people eaters, etc..). I have crossed those religious-fear lines and had things yelled at me I would never concider saying, and I held my head high. I told a room full of professionals what I do for a living a couple weeks ago and was told that if I went to the school of this one woman's child that there would be picketting for me being a witch. And I was treated by some of the people in the class accordingly. I have dealt with it as a young single mom, and as a woman, and even at one point as a bisexual in a female relationship. No one has the right to complain if all they are going to do is run anyway. The best answer to any of this is educate the young to not be afraid and to not hate (which will take generations) and to live as best as you can yourself, passionately and strongly.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
Magical Sock Dancer
255 posts
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Magical Sock Dancer
255 posts
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posted:
Having legal gay marriage seems too be more Christian then not having it. That seems too be used a lot here in Canada. Jesus taught people too love everyone. He ate dinner with tax collectors and prostitues, and that story about the good samartian, why is that in the bible if that's not the point of it? So if you listen to that then gay marriage should be legal.
Next animals like dogs can be homosexual, it's natural. So don't even say it's unnatural.
None of this should even apply, as far as I know Canada and the United states are secular countires so religion shouldn't have any bearing on this.
Damn consevatives.
Having legal gay marriage seems too be more Christian then not having it. That seems too be used a lot here in Canada. Jesus taught people too love everyone. He ate dinner with tax collectors and prostitues, and that story about the good samartian, why is that in the bible if that's not the point of it? So if you listen to that then gay marriage should be legal.
Next animals like dogs can be homosexual, it's natural. So don't even say it's unnatural.
None of this should even apply, as far as I know Canada and the United states are secular countires so religion shouldn't have any bearing on this.
Damn consevatives.
SILVER Member
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada
Posted:
I think Canada passed a bill on gay marrage a while back... I'm pretty sure it stuck... ^_^'
I agree with Achluophobia. Christains over all are supposed to love, right? If that was the one rule that Jesus was trying to teach his followers, somewhere it seems to me, it got a little confused. There is a lot of hateful issues around and includng Christians I find. Not to be offensive, I do not mean it.
Also, I think this has something to do with State and Church (?) Shouldn't it be that the state rules for all that lives under it fairly, and not by the book of one religion??
Please, do so correct me if I'm wrong.
~ Bobo
I think Canada passed a bill on gay marrage a while back... I'm pretty sure it stuck... ^_^'
I agree with Achluophobia. Christains over all are supposed to love, right? If that was the one rule that Jesus was trying to teach his followers, somewhere it seems to me, it got a little confused. There is a lot of hateful issues around and includng Christians I find. Not to be offensive, I do not mean it.
Also, I think this has something to do with State and Church (?) Shouldn't it be that the state rules for all that lives under it fairly, and not by the book of one religion??
Please, do so correct me if I'm wrong.
~ Bobo
wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Pele I don't agree with this foolishness that you need to sacrifice your personal safety, comfort, emotional makeup (Guess what, harassment gets to everyone, no one is immune to it and no one should have to deal with it if they choose not to)
Just because you believe in something doesn't mean you should have to be put through the wringer to get it.
I think you are mixing up what you see as plain feer and ignroance for well disguised hate. Most people are to polite to be open about their hate like the KKK, the black panthers, etc etc..
In no way should gay men have to face violence because of the ideals they hold, and running away is far from cowardice. It's about picking your battles. Trying to fight for something in a region deeply entrenched in hatred, fear, ignorance and blind conservatism is IMO not for everyone. Why are you a coward if you want to go someplace else to live your life? Sure no where's is perfect, this stuff exists everywheres. But there is certainly hotspots.
I gurantee you 100% if I had a boyfriend here I would have to watch my back everywheres I go, Because theres a lot of violent people who would go out of their way to beat me up. Im not talking pick a fight with me, knock me down and kick me a few times. There would probably be atleast two of them, and I gurantee I would probably spend atleast a few days in the hospital.
Hell i already have to watch my back a fair bit because a large number of people suspect im gay (im bi, ive never told them this, this is just pure speculation based on my advocating for gay people, and speaking out agaisnt guys at work bragging about their friends beating up a transexual here multiple times)
Guys don't exactly have the "don't hit a girl" protection women have. and in a lot of areas they don't have protection from the police, and the general populace even encourages gay bashing.
If the issue comes up at a town council meeting special interest groups for everything else imaginable will squash the debate and shift the focus to something else, rather it be a serious matter or something trivial.
Pele I don't agree with this foolishness that you need to sacrifice your personal safety, comfort, emotional makeup (Guess what, harassment gets to everyone, no one is immune to it and no one should have to deal with it if they choose not to)
Just because you believe in something doesn't mean you should have to be put through the wringer to get it.
I think you are mixing up what you see as plain feer and ignroance for well disguised hate. Most people are to polite to be open about their hate like the KKK, the black panthers, etc etc..
In no way should gay men have to face violence because of the ideals they hold, and running away is far from cowardice. It's about picking your battles. Trying to fight for something in a region deeply entrenched in hatred, fear, ignorance and blind conservatism is IMO not for everyone. Why are you a coward if you want to go someplace else to live your life? Sure no where's is perfect, this stuff exists everywheres. But there is certainly hotspots.
I gurantee you 100% if I had a boyfriend here I would have to watch my back everywheres I go, Because theres a lot of violent people who would go out of their way to beat me up. Im not talking pick a fight with me, knock me down and kick me a few times. There would probably be atleast two of them, and I gurantee I would probably spend atleast a few days in the hospital.
Hell i already have to watch my back a fair bit because a large number of people suspect im gay (im bi, ive never told them this, this is just pure speculation based on my advocating for gay people, and speaking out agaisnt guys at work bragging about their friends beating up a transexual here multiple times)
Guys don't exactly have the "don't hit a girl" protection women have. and in a lot of areas they don't have protection from the police, and the general populace even encourages gay bashing.
If the issue comes up at a town council meeting special interest groups for everything else imaginable will squash the debate and shift the focus to something else, rather it be a serious matter or something trivial.
SILVER Member
Keeper of the Spitfire
2,317 posts
Location: Calgary Canada
Keeper of the Spitfire
2,317 posts
Location: Calgary Canada
Posted:
Wow, such a big subject to have on a thread, i'm not really 100% sure of what to say...
Pele, I understand what you're saying about fear and hatred being different (KKK, etc. obviously hate A LOT more than they fear). But I think the two are a lot more closely related than you make out, and I certainly think that some incidents of hatred are brought on by fear of the unknown.
I think this is especially the case in anything concerning homosexuality. People don't know, so therefor they fear. It is especially a difficult one, as its not really something people can try (such as smoking, alcohol, etc), and then give their opinion, based on experience, of what they think is right and wrong. People do have a set idea of what it is they don't like, or fear, (eg a general term of homosexuality), and when this begins to change (eg. proposing acceptance for gay marriages), people's fear becomes greater. This increase in fear can be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as hatred.
Anyway, this is just my opinion, and is one of millions of opinions around the world.
Along with many many other people, I have tried to come up with reasons for some people being so narrow minded on this subject. Whether on the receiving end it is a gay couple trying to get married, or a 14yr old kid coming out to their school friends. The unwelcomed reaction (as oppose to an understanding), is invariably brought about by a fear which originated from the unknown about this subject.
Unfortunately, I have been on the receiving end of this myself. This time last year, it was the natural course of things that I came out to some people about me and my girlfriend. Most people suspected already, so it wasn't a big issue for them, and they were very supportive.
Some people however, had this narrow minded view about it, and I was soon on the 'not very nice end' of some peoples opinions. I don't want to harp on about it and get too far off the subject, but being physically bullied (at the age of 22), and being told that 'if i want to be a bloke and f**k women, then I should learn to fight like a bloke', was not one of my most pleasant experiences.
I agree with the right to free speach, and that you can try and ignore what you don't like, but this sort of stuff can hurt.
To go back to Pele's post again, she says you can either "keep quiet and run, or you stay and you stand". It was so tempting back then to run, and go back to a life where I could pretend to be straight but just not have a boyfriend. Well luckily this option seemed rediculous, and I put up with months of good and bad comments on the subject. To some people I was suddenly a new creature, even though at the time I had been going out with girls for the past 1 1/2 yrs. Now the comments only come in jest from friends I have known most of my life- whom i know will love me whoever I am, and whom I love dearly.
Of course people's views are changing- they always will, its how the world works. I think I speak for more than just myself when I say I would love to press a button and change these views overnight. But unfortunately this can't be done. So we have to stand up straight, dig our heels in, and stand firm to whatever you are or whatever you believe in. If we don't run away, sometimes our experiences can be a gateway for other people. And this, surely, can only be a good thing.
Sorry about my ranting, but thanks for having patience and listening to me.
xxx
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It used to seem to me that my life ran on too fast, and i had to take it slowly just to make the good parts last. But when you're born to run its so hard to just slow down.
Wow, such a big subject to have on a thread, i'm not really 100% sure of what to say...
Pele, I understand what you're saying about fear and hatred being different (KKK, etc. obviously hate A LOT more than they fear). But I think the two are a lot more closely related than you make out, and I certainly think that some incidents of hatred are brought on by fear of the unknown.
I think this is especially the case in anything concerning homosexuality. People don't know, so therefor they fear. It is especially a difficult one, as its not really something people can try (such as smoking, alcohol, etc), and then give their opinion, based on experience, of what they think is right and wrong. People do have a set idea of what it is they don't like, or fear, (eg a general term of homosexuality), and when this begins to change (eg. proposing acceptance for gay marriages), people's fear becomes greater. This increase in fear can be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as hatred.
Anyway, this is just my opinion, and is one of millions of opinions around the world.
Along with many many other people, I have tried to come up with reasons for some people being so narrow minded on this subject. Whether on the receiving end it is a gay couple trying to get married, or a 14yr old kid coming out to their school friends. The unwelcomed reaction (as oppose to an understanding), is invariably brought about by a fear which originated from the unknown about this subject.
Unfortunately, I have been on the receiving end of this myself. This time last year, it was the natural course of things that I came out to some people about me and my girlfriend. Most people suspected already, so it wasn't a big issue for them, and they were very supportive.
Some people however, had this narrow minded view about it, and I was soon on the 'not very nice end' of some peoples opinions. I don't want to harp on about it and get too far off the subject, but being physically bullied (at the age of 22), and being told that 'if i want to be a bloke and f**k women, then I should learn to fight like a bloke', was not one of my most pleasant experiences.
I agree with the right to free speach, and that you can try and ignore what you don't like, but this sort of stuff can hurt.
To go back to Pele's post again, she says you can either "keep quiet and run, or you stay and you stand". It was so tempting back then to run, and go back to a life where I could pretend to be straight but just not have a boyfriend. Well luckily this option seemed rediculous, and I put up with months of good and bad comments on the subject. To some people I was suddenly a new creature, even though at the time I had been going out with girls for the past 1 1/2 yrs. Now the comments only come in jest from friends I have known most of my life- whom i know will love me whoever I am, and whom I love dearly.
Of course people's views are changing- they always will, its how the world works. I think I speak for more than just myself when I say I would love to press a button and change these views overnight. But unfortunately this can't be done. So we have to stand up straight, dig our heels in, and stand firm to whatever you are or whatever you believe in. If we don't run away, sometimes our experiences can be a gateway for other people. And this, surely, can only be a good thing.
Sorry about my ranting, but thanks for having patience and listening to me.
xxx
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It used to seem to me that my life ran on too fast, and i had to take it slowly just to make the good parts last. But when you're born to run its so hard to just slow down.
Lets steal a spaceship and head for the sun, and shoot the stars with a lemonade ray gun.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
No one said anything about sacrificing personal safety or comfort. I know lots of gays and being bi, I am not out of the line of fire from straights or gays, and none of us have ever been beaten or comprimised our safety. The whole gay bashing/beating thing is truly a residual fear of the 80's. Sure it still happens. So does rape and hate crimes against everyone for one thing or another, but it is not so common as to live in fear either.
Tell that to every single minority group who has ever fought for anything and they will laugh at you. History is riddled with examples of this. We do not live in Utopia and the reality is that for people who live "alternative lifestyles" (I hate that term) you do get put through the wringer for unpopular convictions. It is something that has to be faced and dealt with.
It shouldn't happen in an ideal society, but there is no place on this earth that is an ideal society and the only way to change that is to live true to ourselves, others be damned. If we all ran away...then only white landholding men would have the right to vote, the US would still belong to England and gays would not be allowed to marry in the states where it is allowed. In fact, if everyone turned the other cheek and left...Christianity would have never come into power. Change is not enacted by running away, nor is it enacted by aggression and ignorance.
I am mixing nothing up at all. If I had an attitude like yours I would never take the stage, or step out of my door for that matter. You do not have to hate to have ignorance and fear, though they are part of hate. People who perpetuate the belief that they are one and the same are part of the problem. It's hard to educate those we hold in contempt and if you look at everyone believing they are filled with hate, then it is hard not to look upon the world without contempt.
And this thread is not about violence at all. It is about the bible beaters out there spewing about the immorality of being gay because of a legislature passed. These same people preach against watching Disney, practicing other religions, performing sideshow feats, etc.... creating a fear to help get legislature to turn down laws allowing these things to freely occur. That is speech out of fear.
If you will kindly read what I said, I said it was okay to leave, but don't complain unless you intend to stay and live as true as you can. And I don't mean stay in the same town you live in now, skipping the country was mentioned because of fear and upset at the fact that these ignoramouses are misquoting a book, without regards it seems to the fact that two men have fought silently for two years to change the state law...and they did it. If he is going to go then fine. However, he will find this, and sometimes even less progressive thinking no matter where he goes. This is something he needs to find comfort in within himself. My sons old school principle was gay. There was hesitation by many in the community at first but in the end, he is there and doing an okay job. If he ran away this would have followed him and he would have had no right to complain about the community that didn't want him when he didn't even try to live in it. He did. Views were changed and the world moved on. Those are the facts in this day and age. Things need to be dealt with and moved on. Running away is not dealing with anything. And if you read my post you would have seen that I clearly stated the making a huge stand is not always the best activistic approach, living your life is. Everyone is cut out to do that.
Then you live in a very scary place with viewpoints that many people these days do not share. And in fact, if they did share it television shows promoting gay pride would not be as successful as they are, nor would it be so popular for gays to be integral parts of popular media, including music (ever read the lyrics of TATU?), television and movies.
There are anti-gay bashing/beating laws that are in effect and have been since the 80's in the vast majority of the US. There are laws against women hitting men even. Before you make statements like this, please know about the laws you are dicussing.
If people did live in such fear then there would not be the pluthera of Gay Pride events that there are, the amount of blatantly gay bars hosting advertised drag queen shows and gay dating meets, etc. Despite the bible thumpers Disney makes movies and hosts gay pride events, Marilyn Manson makes music, Ozzy has a tv show, pagans are raising children and gays are getting married, and all of these have been upheld in courts of law. And when someone even tries to step on the free liberties of the "minority groups" the ACLU is very happy to get involved. It will hold in Mass, though it will be fought by pushy, nosey, self-righteous groups for years to come.
And...btw, the last gay rape that caused a public outrage in this neck of the woods (years ago) was committed by another gay man.
Living in fear is no way to live, and I stand by everything I said.
Quote:
Pele I don't agree with this foolishness that you need to sacrifice your personal safety, comfort, emotional makeup (Guess what, harassment gets to everyone, no one is immune to it and no one should have to deal with it if they choose not to)
No one said anything about sacrificing personal safety or comfort. I know lots of gays and being bi, I am not out of the line of fire from straights or gays, and none of us have ever been beaten or comprimised our safety. The whole gay bashing/beating thing is truly a residual fear of the 80's. Sure it still happens. So does rape and hate crimes against everyone for one thing or another, but it is not so common as to live in fear either.
Quote:
Just because you believe in something doesn't mean you should have to be put through the wringer to get it.
Tell that to every single minority group who has ever fought for anything and they will laugh at you. History is riddled with examples of this. We do not live in Utopia and the reality is that for people who live "alternative lifestyles" (I hate that term) you do get put through the wringer for unpopular convictions. It is something that has to be faced and dealt with.
It shouldn't happen in an ideal society, but there is no place on this earth that is an ideal society and the only way to change that is to live true to ourselves, others be damned. If we all ran away...then only white landholding men would have the right to vote, the US would still belong to England and gays would not be allowed to marry in the states where it is allowed. In fact, if everyone turned the other cheek and left...Christianity would have never come into power. Change is not enacted by running away, nor is it enacted by aggression and ignorance.
Quote:
I think you are mixing up what you see as plain feer and ignroance for well disguised hate. Most people are to polite to be open about their hate like the KKK, the black panthers, etc etc..
I am mixing nothing up at all. If I had an attitude like yours I would never take the stage, or step out of my door for that matter. You do not have to hate to have ignorance and fear, though they are part of hate. People who perpetuate the belief that they are one and the same are part of the problem. It's hard to educate those we hold in contempt and if you look at everyone believing they are filled with hate, then it is hard not to look upon the world without contempt.
Quote:
In no way should gay men have to face violence because of the ideals they hold,
And this thread is not about violence at all. It is about the bible beaters out there spewing about the immorality of being gay because of a legislature passed. These same people preach against watching Disney, practicing other religions, performing sideshow feats, etc.... creating a fear to help get legislature to turn down laws allowing these things to freely occur. That is speech out of fear.
Quote:
and running away is far from cowardice. It's about picking your battles. Trying to fight for something in a region deeply entrenched in hatred, fear, ignorance and blind conservatism is IMO not for everyone. Why are you a coward if you want to go someplace else to live your life? Sure no where's is perfect, this stuff exists everywheres. But there is certainly hotspots.
If you will kindly read what I said, I said it was okay to leave, but don't complain unless you intend to stay and live as true as you can. And I don't mean stay in the same town you live in now, skipping the country was mentioned because of fear and upset at the fact that these ignoramouses are misquoting a book, without regards it seems to the fact that two men have fought silently for two years to change the state law...and they did it. If he is going to go then fine. However, he will find this, and sometimes even less progressive thinking no matter where he goes. This is something he needs to find comfort in within himself. My sons old school principle was gay. There was hesitation by many in the community at first but in the end, he is there and doing an okay job. If he ran away this would have followed him and he would have had no right to complain about the community that didn't want him when he didn't even try to live in it. He did. Views were changed and the world moved on. Those are the facts in this day and age. Things need to be dealt with and moved on. Running away is not dealing with anything. And if you read my post you would have seen that I clearly stated the making a huge stand is not always the best activistic approach, living your life is. Everyone is cut out to do that.
Quote:
I gurantee you 100% if I had a boyfriend here I would have to watch my back everywheres I go, Because theres a lot of violent people who would go out of their way to beat me up. Im not talking pick a fight with me, knock me down and kick me a few times. There would probably be atleast two of them, and I gurantee I would probably spend atleast a few days in the hospital.
Then you live in a very scary place with viewpoints that many people these days do not share. And in fact, if they did share it television shows promoting gay pride would not be as successful as they are, nor would it be so popular for gays to be integral parts of popular media, including music (ever read the lyrics of TATU?), television and movies.
Quote:
Guys don't exactly have the "don't hit a girl" protection women have. and in a lot of areas they don't have protection from the police, and the general populace even encourages gay bashing.
There are anti-gay bashing/beating laws that are in effect and have been since the 80's in the vast majority of the US. There are laws against women hitting men even. Before you make statements like this, please know about the laws you are dicussing.
If people did live in such fear then there would not be the pluthera of Gay Pride events that there are, the amount of blatantly gay bars hosting advertised drag queen shows and gay dating meets, etc. Despite the bible thumpers Disney makes movies and hosts gay pride events, Marilyn Manson makes music, Ozzy has a tv show, pagans are raising children and gays are getting married, and all of these have been upheld in courts of law. And when someone even tries to step on the free liberties of the "minority groups" the ACLU is very happy to get involved. It will hold in Mass, though it will be fought by pushy, nosey, self-righteous groups for years to come.
And...btw, the last gay rape that caused a public outrage in this neck of the woods (years ago) was committed by another gay man.
Living in fear is no way to live, and I stand by everything I said.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I think that was an awesome paragraph! Brava!
And what I got when I dated a girl was the whole "You just don't know because you haven't had a real man." "Two girls? (insert Beavis and Butthead laugh here) Can we pay you to watch?"..male bs. I think that it is really different for women as well, since it lesbianism has only been acknowledged as exsisting and thusly illegal for us since the early 1900's, thanks so much to Freud.:
Oh, and I hadn't you posted the same time I did Mand, and in my response I addressed that fear is part of hatred but that I do not believe the reverse is true.
Quote:
Of course people's views are changing- they always will, its how the world works. I think I speak for more than just myself when I say I would love to press a button and change these views overnight. But unfortunately this can't be done. So we have to stand up straight, dig our heels in, and stand firm to whatever you are or whatever you believe in. If we don't run away, sometimes our experiences can be a gateway for other people. And this, surely, can only be a good thing.
I think that was an awesome paragraph! Brava!
And what I got when I dated a girl was the whole "You just don't know because you haven't had a real man." "Two girls? (insert Beavis and Butthead laugh here) Can we pay you to watch?"..male bs. I think that it is really different for women as well, since it lesbianism has only been acknowledged as exsisting and thusly illegal for us since the early 1900's, thanks so much to Freud.
:Oh, and I hadn't you posted the same time I did Mand, and in my response I addressed that fear is part of hatred but that I do not believe the reverse is true.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Well, Pele, there's another side to the argument.
So suppose I go through medical school and finish my post-graduate training as an adolescent medicine specialist, or a pediatric developmental/behavioral specialist, or a pediatric neurologist.
All of those fields are incredibly useful and in very high demand in all industrialized nations. Having that level of medical training puts me in a position to be very useful to my society. It makes me a Very Important Person. As such, I deserve and, frankly demand, that I be afforded the same rights as anyone else in my society. That includes the right to marry and adopt children. That also includes the right to be safe from discrimination in the arena of housing, employment, and medical insurance/care. None of the above are protected by federal law at this point.
It is a privilege to treat patients, not a right. I do owe my society the privilege of allowing me to treat patients, to advance medical knowledge, and to participate in public policy regarding health care in this country.
However, if this society is not going to offer me basic human rights and another society will, then I see no reason why I should stay here and take this abuse when my contributions would be better appreciated somewhere else.
Those of us who are Queer have a lot to contribute to society. Maybe once society realizes that they're losing that to other countries that are willing to treat us as human beings, maybe people will wise up and start giving us our inherent, supposedly inalienable rights.
So in choosing to leave, and thus withdrawing my services, I would argue that I am making a stand. I'm boycotting a country with arguably the worst human rights record of the First World.
Well, Pele, there's another side to the argument.
So suppose I go through medical school and finish my post-graduate training as an adolescent medicine specialist, or a pediatric developmental/behavioral specialist, or a pediatric neurologist.
All of those fields are incredibly useful and in very high demand in all industrialized nations. Having that level of medical training puts me in a position to be very useful to my society. It makes me a Very Important Person. As such, I deserve and, frankly demand, that I be afforded the same rights as anyone else in my society. That includes the right to marry and adopt children. That also includes the right to be safe from discrimination in the arena of housing, employment, and medical insurance/care. None of the above are protected by federal law at this point.
It is a privilege to treat patients, not a right. I do owe my society the privilege of allowing me to treat patients, to advance medical knowledge, and to participate in public policy regarding health care in this country.
However, if this society is not going to offer me basic human rights and another society will, then I see no reason why I should stay here and take this abuse when my contributions would be better appreciated somewhere else.
Those of us who are Queer have a lot to contribute to society. Maybe once society realizes that they're losing that to other countries that are willing to treat us as human beings, maybe people will wise up and start giving us our inherent, supposedly inalienable rights.
So in choosing to leave, and thus withdrawing my services, I would argue that I am making a stand. I'm boycotting a country with arguably the worst human rights record of the First World.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
192 posts
Location: oxford
192 posts
Location: oxford
Posted:
i write one of the most heart felt replies in my life and my computer crashes as i send it... f£$ing typical....
i write one of the most heart felt replies in my life and my computer crashes as i send it... f£$ing typical....
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
hmmmm....
somethings missing.....cant quite put my finger on it..... yes!
thats it! does anyone miss Ray? 
i dont really think i can add much to this discussion, as its all been said.
love, peace, and hugs to all
hmmmm....
somethings missing.....cant quite put my finger on it..... yes!
thats it! does anyone miss Ray? i dont really think i can add much to this discussion, as its all been said.
love, peace, and hugs to all
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
i wish people would stop being so paranoid. if people want to be gay they can be gay. if those people who are gay want to get married - let them bloody get married! its not like it affects YOU!
and people who think that maybe cos they are gay they will have a thing for you is such a load of crap! its no different to having friends of the opposite sex! do you stop being friends with them because THEY might develop a thing for you?
on a funnier note, my gay friend, while watching the rugby, was sitting on the couch, legs apart, with a VB (aussie beer) shouting "faggot" at Wilkinson...occasionally scratching his balls.....god it was funny! you would walk into the room and it just looked so 'typical male watching the rugby', until you actually saw who it was! absolutely HILARIOUS!.....later he went and got a chik drink...lol!
i wish people would stop being so paranoid. if people want to be gay they can be gay. if those people who are gay want to get married - let them bloody get married! its not like it affects YOU!
and people who think that maybe cos they are gay they will have a thing for you is such a load of crap! its no different to having friends of the opposite sex! do you stop being friends with them because THEY might develop a thing for you?
on a funnier note, my gay friend, while watching the rugby, was sitting on the couch, legs apart, with a VB (aussie beer) shouting "faggot" at Wilkinson...occasionally scratching his balls.....god it was funny! you would walk into the room and it just looked so 'typical male watching the rugby', until you actually saw who it was! absolutely HILARIOUS!.....later he went and got a chik drink...lol!
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Pele I wasn't talking about legal protection. Atleast here if you hit a girl the community deals with you in it's own various ways.
When someone beats up a homosexual most of the community doesn't care, and theres large segments of the community that encourage it.
Personally I think peer pressure is more effective in preventing/creating crime then any legislation.
Pele I wasn't talking about legal protection. Atleast here if you hit a girl the community deals with you in it's own various ways.
When someone beats up a homosexual most of the community doesn't care, and theres large segments of the community that encourage it.
Personally I think peer pressure is more effective in preventing/creating crime then any legislation.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Hey, we're men. We sleep with men, but we're still men.
Quote:
on a funnier note, my gay friend, while watching the rugby, was sitting on the couch, legs apart, with a VB (aussie beer) shouting "faggot" at Wilkinson...occasionally scratching his balls.....god it was funny! you would walk into the room and it just looked so 'typical male watching the rugby', until you actually saw who it was! absolutely HILARIOUS!
Hey, we're men. We sleep with men, but we're still men.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
a body is but a mode of transportation for the soul, it is the soul we fall in love with...in my eyes it makes no difference in what body that soul may reside...
Im bi sexual, and I love men AND women.. its an either or situation. If Arsns soul was in a female body. I would still be in love with him, as I am in love with his essence and his body is an added bonus...
a body is but a mode of transportation for the soul, it is the soul we fall in love with...in my eyes it makes no difference in what body that soul may reside...
Im bi sexual, and I love men AND women.. its an either or situation. If Arsns soul was in a female body. I would still be in love with him, as I am in love with his essence and his body is an added bonus...
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
Quantum Theorist
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
564 posts
Location: Vansterdam
Posted:
Why can't more people feel that way. Me and my wonderful girlfriend/fiance have discussed this our selves and concluded what body we have doesn't matter. It's just the soul inside.
I can't believe this is still an issue today (it actually makes me sick). If Kazeko where a man (as she says she's called dibs on in the next life) or I were a woman we'd still want the chance to express our love and comitment through marriage. Marriage is a union of love between to people.
Straight, bi, gay. I think it's a matter of circumstance more than anything else. The soul knows no sex.
EDITED_BY: Kaji-kun (1070008537)
Quote:
a body is but a mode of transportation for the soul, it is the soul we fall in love with...in my eyes it makes no difference in what body that soul may reside...
Im bi sexual, and I love men AND women.. its an either or situation. If Arsns soul was in a female body. I would still be in love with him, as I am in love with his essence and his body is an added bonus...
Why can't more people feel that way. Me and my wonderful girlfriend/fiance have discussed this our selves and concluded what body we have doesn't matter. It's just the soul inside.
I can't believe this is still an issue today (it actually makes me sick). If Kazeko where a man (as she says she's called dibs on in the next life) or I were a woman we'd still want the chance to express our love and comitment through marriage. Marriage is a union of love between to people.
Straight, bi, gay. I think it's a matter of circumstance more than anything else. The soul knows no sex.
EDITED_BY: Kaji-kun (1070008537)
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.
member
36 posts
Location: Ontario, Canada
36 posts
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted:
When gay marriage was being legalized here in Ontario, Canada, there was a large and scary anti-gay public outcry. At this time, it was important for me to realize that the bigotist opinions that I was reading in the newspapers are written by people who are in the extreme. I was reading their letters to the editor because the neutral members of society aren't the ones who are necessarily motivated to write. The scope of public opinion, then, was not being adequately represented.
Extreme hate is always intimidating, but it is comforting to know that most of my community members are (at the very least) not hateful.
There's one perspective that I think I should introduce; that gay marriage is actually detrimental to queer liberation.
The queer movement had (has) the potential to be subversive in an a privileged world. The idea of the "queer scene" as being a counter-culture is one that is very exciting to me. It comes from a revolutionary anti-oppression perspective. Queer liberation could then be teamed with feminist, anti-racism and anti-classism movements.
Unfortunately, during the 50s and 60s, many liberal homosexuals decided that they wanted to be part of the already existing (and oppressive) white North American society. They would picket in front of government buildings dressed in office attire in order to prove that they, too, could look appropriate for a government job. Women would wear skirtsuits and heels, and men would wear 3-pieces. On top of it all, they were all white. The result was a conformist culture where homosexuals played into class, race and gender stereotypes.
Most people reading this are probably thinking that I'm bonkers ("oh, there goes divi again, spouting about her revolution..."), but the queer liberation counterculture has actually been the most effective in securing spaces (like gay bars) and events (like pride days) for the community.
Gay bars were founded in dingy back alleys. They were maintained as a space by the queer & poor people who lived in those neighbourhoods.
And annual pride parades were actually formed in celebration of a riot (That's right!! The infamous Stonewall Riot!!!! Happened Friday June 27th, 1969 in New York, in Greenwich Village at the Stonewall Inn.), where effeminate men and butchy women and people of colour (specifically latina/latino people) and poor people and people in drag did battle with the cops in the street. (In context, police in North America have ourstorically performed routine police raids where they would humiliate, harrass, assault and arrest people for being in gay bars or displaying 'homosexual' behaviour.)This event is considered to be the defining point of the modern gay rights movement.
These people were not interested in conforming to a culture which simply did not accept them. Resultingly, rather than adopting "heterosexual" behaviour (read: stereotypical gender roles), they queered homosexuality.
I don't believe in marriage as an institution. I don't believe that society, the state or the church can somehow sanctify a relationship between individuals. I don't believe that marriage is anything special.
It is the relationship itself, and not any external influences, that should determine the special-ness of a connection between people.
I think that rather than trying to create a new culture, the homosexual rights movement has again conformed to current societal ideas and values about their own relationships.
I am queer, always have been queer, always will be queer. No external structure will ever be able to tell me where I stand.
When gay marriage is fully legalized, I will be happy for those people who feel like they have new options. However, I think it's a shame that we're still stuck in North American mindsets, and have not pushed beyond.
When gay marriage was being legalized here in Ontario, Canada, there was a large and scary anti-gay public outcry. At this time, it was important for me to realize that the bigotist opinions that I was reading in the newspapers are written by people who are in the extreme. I was reading their letters to the editor because the neutral members of society aren't the ones who are necessarily motivated to write. The scope of public opinion, then, was not being adequately represented.
Extreme hate is always intimidating, but it is comforting to know that most of my community members are (at the very least) not hateful.
There's one perspective that I think I should introduce; that gay marriage is actually detrimental to queer liberation.
The queer movement had (has) the potential to be subversive in an a privileged world. The idea of the "queer scene" as being a counter-culture is one that is very exciting to me. It comes from a revolutionary anti-oppression perspective. Queer liberation could then be teamed with feminist, anti-racism and anti-classism movements.
Unfortunately, during the 50s and 60s, many liberal homosexuals decided that they wanted to be part of the already existing (and oppressive) white North American society. They would picket in front of government buildings dressed in office attire in order to prove that they, too, could look appropriate for a government job. Women would wear skirtsuits and heels, and men would wear 3-pieces. On top of it all, they were all white. The result was a conformist culture where homosexuals played into class, race and gender stereotypes.
Most people reading this are probably thinking that I'm bonkers ("oh, there goes divi again, spouting about her revolution..."), but the queer liberation counterculture has actually been the most effective in securing spaces (like gay bars) and events (like pride days) for the community.
Gay bars were founded in dingy back alleys. They were maintained as a space by the queer & poor people who lived in those neighbourhoods.
And annual pride parades were actually formed in celebration of a riot (That's right!! The infamous Stonewall Riot!!!! Happened Friday June 27th, 1969 in New York, in Greenwich Village at the Stonewall Inn.), where effeminate men and butchy women and people of colour (specifically latina/latino people) and poor people and people in drag did battle with the cops in the street. (In context, police in North America have ourstorically performed routine police raids where they would humiliate, harrass, assault and arrest people for being in gay bars or displaying 'homosexual' behaviour.)This event is considered to be the defining point of the modern gay rights movement.
These people were not interested in conforming to a culture which simply did not accept them. Resultingly, rather than adopting "heterosexual" behaviour (read: stereotypical gender roles), they queered homosexuality.
I don't believe in marriage as an institution. I don't believe that society, the state or the church can somehow sanctify a relationship between individuals. I don't believe that marriage is anything special.
It is the relationship itself, and not any external influences, that should determine the special-ness of a connection between people.
I think that rather than trying to create a new culture, the homosexual rights movement has again conformed to current societal ideas and values about their own relationships.
I am queer, always have been queer, always will be queer. No external structure will ever be able to tell me where I stand.
When gay marriage is fully legalized, I will be happy for those people who feel like they have new options. However, I think it's a shame that we're still stuck in North American mindsets, and have not pushed beyond.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I do think you're bonkers , but not because of your views.
However, I don't think that I should necessarily be used as a tool of revolution just because I was born gay. If I want to fit into the oppressive white-picket-fence model that you so abhor, my sexuality shouldn't be a barrier. That should be a choice based on nothing other than just that: choice, not based on my biology.
I don't see marriage as a necessarily oppressive institution. I see marriage as a way of affirming one's love for another person in a way that no other institution can. I think it can be a beautiful thing to speak of one's wife or husband. It means something a lot more than "life partner."
There are a number of ways in which I would like to subvert the modern model of consumerist, disposable society. But giving up my right to marry just because I'm gay isn't going to accomplish what I want to accomplish.
Quote:
Most people reading this are probably thinking that I'm bonkers ("oh, there goes divi again, spouting about her revolution..."), but the queer liberation counterculture has actually been the most effective in securing spaces (like gay bars) and events (like pride days) for the community.
I do think you're bonkers
, but not because of your views.However, I don't think that I should necessarily be used as a tool of revolution just because I was born gay. If I want to fit into the oppressive white-picket-fence model that you so abhor, my sexuality shouldn't be a barrier. That should be a choice based on nothing other than just that: choice, not based on my biology.
I don't see marriage as a necessarily oppressive institution. I see marriage as a way of affirming one's love for another person in a way that no other institution can. I think it can be a beautiful thing to speak of one's wife or husband. It means something a lot more than "life partner."
There are a number of ways in which I would like to subvert the modern model of consumerist, disposable society. But giving up my right to marry just because I'm gay isn't going to accomplish what I want to accomplish.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Quote:Quote:
I don't see marriage as a necessarily oppressive institution. I see marriage as a way of affirming one's love for another person in a way that no other institution can. I think it can be a beautiful thing to speak of one's wife or husband. It means something a lot more than "life partner."
And why you do need marriage to do that? I think the institution of marriage is not what people think it is anymore. It is convenient and a relatively easy to get out of. PWB and I have been together for over 6 years (for the most part, few months off here and there). We refer to each other as "wife" and "husband". Noah and I can be on his insurance. We share a credit card. Both of our names are on a car. He can claim Noah on his taxes. All of the actual legal benefits of marriage, we can do by living together...or even just by dating (as in the credit card and the car). I put him on my will as the guardian of Noah if something happens, and the executor of my (really non-exsistent) estate. In the hospital where family only was admitted, he was there. We are together. Everyone knows it...friends and family. We did not need to go into debt like so many do to prove it, and that is all marriage is today. Hell, if I want to change my last name I can without the marriage certificate. He can even adopt Noah without it.
Marriage used to mean alot more than it really does today. People got married for financial reasons, for practicality and eventually they started marrying for love. Today it is pretty much equated to a public speech stating you love someone, that saps you of lots of money.
PWB and I have decided that if we ever do get married, we are just having a pig roast in a park to sate all those people who keep bothering us about "When are you finally getting married?"
I think if I were serious with a woman my opinion on this might change, though I doubt it. I just think that in this day and age people need to understand what can be achieved without marriage. Friends of mine who are lesbians got "married" (not legally), and they share all the legal benefits of a married life, including having had a party, without the technical approval of the state. To me that is a greater show of dedication.Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
You don't. In my opinion, marriage should be abolished as a legal institution and domestic partnerships should be granted by the state (people could still call each-other "husband" and "wife" if they so wished). Marriage, then, would be done by religious institutions. Or by a guy dressed as Elvis, for all I care. So nothing would change other than the terminology, but that way any two people would be able to get married. (I personally believe that marriage should be restricted to couples, but that's another argument).
Having said that, there's no way we're going to institute that any time soon in this country. But just because you don't need marriage doesn't mean that we should be denying that option to the LGBT community.
Quote:
And why you do need marriage to do that?
You don't. In my opinion, marriage should be abolished as a legal institution and domestic partnerships should be granted by the state (people could still call each-other "husband" and "wife" if they so wished). Marriage, then, would be done by religious institutions. Or by a guy dressed as Elvis, for all I care. So nothing would change other than the terminology, but that way any two people would be able to get married. (I personally believe that marriage should be restricted to couples, but that's another argument).
Having said that, there's no way we're going to institute that any time soon in this country. But just because you don't need marriage doesn't mean that we should be denying that option to the LGBT community.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
36 posts
Location: Ontario, Canada
36 posts
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted:
With all due respect, this is just another binary.
I think that the above quotation reflects why the idea of marriage will always be restrictive and limiting; it does not open itself up to all people, and creates an incurable exclusion.
I am personally in favour of ripping down oppositional thought, and allowing people to be more self-determining than this current society allows. (In my eyes: If you prefer monogamy, yay. If you prefer polyamory, yay.)
Marriage is one of those things that will never accomodate everyone. By appeasing the homosexual liberal population, there are less voices speaking against the institution, and there are therefore less people willing to question it.
One step forward, two steps back.
Quote:
So nothing would change other than the terminology, but that way any two people would be able to get married. (I personally believe that marriage should be restricted to couples, but that's another argument).
With all due respect, this is just another binary.
I think that the above quotation reflects why the idea of marriage will always be restrictive and limiting; it does not open itself up to all people, and creates an incurable exclusion.
I am personally in favour of ripping down oppositional thought, and allowing people to be more self-determining than this current society allows. (In my eyes: If you prefer monogamy, yay. If you prefer polyamory, yay.)
Marriage is one of those things that will never accomodate everyone. By appeasing the homosexual liberal population, there are less voices speaking against the institution, and there are therefore less people willing to question it.
One step forward, two steps back.
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