What are you working on now?

Its likely a plane issue.

Forget how many petals you're doing and forget where the focus points are while you work on this.

Get it clean first, then worry about where the petals are going.

Once it feels vaguely clean, play around with the number of petals.

If you want to be able to place your 3 petals wherever you like, try doing 4 petals and placing them evenly around in a + pattern.

Then you can just focus on getting rid of either the top or bottom petal.

Still hasn't actually answered my question as to whether one way is easier to learn with than another. My petal question is part of the cleaning up question, not a separate issue.

After playing around with this 4x4 fountain, I'm wondering if there's a way to do an antispin version like you can for the regular fountain. I'm going to have to play around, because this move demands to have a reversed form...

The easiest way to do it would be the way you do it without thinking.

There is no real rule for whats easier than anything else in poi... some people find some things easy, others find the same things hard.

Re:4x4 fountains I'd have to double check what it is to tell you if antispin is possible... the answer is most likely "yes" though, it almost always is possible in every way, even if you wanted to try a variation where you did it suspended upside down from the roof by your legs.

I think easiest is just to learn it. After you have the basic shape down you can play with which petals are where.

The way I do it without thinking is to not do it. I'm only just learning it, so there's no such thing as a way that seems natural; I have to think about how I'm starting and what's supposed to happen.

Which is why I was hoping to poll more than one person. Maybe there's no rule, but that doesn't mean there aren't general tendencies.

[Edit] You know, nevermind. This is getting frustrating. The question was pretty simple, and I appreciate leaving it up to me whether the information I'm asking for turns out to be useful or not. As it is, all posts replying to my inquiry have been deliberate statements that the poster will not answer my question. Thanks.

But there is no easier way?

I know people who feel more comfortable learning outward butterflies first, and a few more who prefer inward. So I show both and let them choose. I even know a few people who learned a reverse 3bt before a forward (although that was rather odd any way).

When I learned "triquetras", I was just getting an extension with one arm and making an antispin flower with the other. I'm damned if I remember which way it pointed. It probably had about 6 petals anyway, since I was coming straight out of trying to learn that.

We are not trying to avoid giving you the answer. MNS and I have both given you the only answer that there really is. It is not a case of avoiding or trying to hide anything, but just that when learning this, the anti-spin probably is not clean enough to pick a direction that it points anyway.

In terms of general tendencies, no one I know has expressed interest in learning this, so I have not tried to teach it.

As an attempt to answer and stave off the incipient cries of further unhelpfulness, try whichever way your trefoil naturally goes on its own. Mine points upwards if that means anything.

As a general rule, no such cries are forthcoming by the time I say "nevermind".

RE triquetras:

I found learning opposite direction wallplane flowers/butterfly flowers really helpped, or butterfly flowers with extentions. Can't quite remember, but Nick does a video of them which is real helpful. Also workin on getting your planes straight in wallplane really helps. Playing up against a wall will sort that.

I do mine pointing down at the moment. As for sagging of extention, I think it just takes practice. And the colision issue will be down to planes.



Sorry, ignore me, I was being a pedantic cock

If I were to add in extra petals, would that mean decreasing the speed of the extention, or increasing the speed of the antispin. Or half it, so say you were doing 6 petals, have it as 1 extention to every 3 petals?

When I first learned the triquatra my brain went like this...

"WHEEEEE!!! I'M DOING IT!!!"

No idea which way the petals were pointed, they were probably moving constantly as I did the movement, it takes time to get the petals to be in the same spot every time so its not really a viable way to learn it to try get the trifoil pointing up or down from the word go.



T-S-A its not really about decreasing the speed of one or increasing the speed of the other, its more about altering the ratio between the beat speeds.

That is to say you could either speed one up or slow one down. The easiest way to do it would be to slow one down a bit and speed the other up a bit, so it kinda evens out.

Once you understand it and can do it, try playing around with speeds.

As to doing 1 extention to every 3 petals... I'm not sure thats possible, you'd have to pass your arms through one another, though in my brain I feel like theres a way to get that to work for one cycle before you have to stop... perhaps with an inversion it could be made continuous, but I'll have to have a play with that later... for now its melting my thinky bits.

Yeah I see what you mean about the arms crossing and problems it could cause. Will have to give more petals a go on my break (Yes, I am a loser and take my poi to work with me :P)

Expanding on my use of stalls. Previously been using them to break rhythm and reverse direction of both poi, or stalling one to switch to/from opposites. Now I'm playing with plane changes and changing to/from opposites after stalling both poi. Very odd feeling, but fun.

Been trying to get a pause into the middle of a stall switch and then carry on with it.

Also working on same direction hybrids.

Working on wallplane split time butterfly antispin flowers. The timing is driving me batty, though I know it's just a matter of putting in the time. I can do the split time butterfly motion with my arms, I can do the antispin flowers with one hand, but if I have a flower going and my arms moving they go all wonky. Probably because I'm used to same direction wallplane flowers. Trying to work on the individual movements, and getting the total movement with one hand spinning the flower and the other hand empty.

I should consult my checklist. Feeling like I don't have much to work on lately, but that's not nearly true.

Best thing i found was to do split time butterlfy, move one hand above and let the top hand kinda fall into the > shape of the poi, come back down to butterfly and do the same with your other hand on top to make the <.

Keep going over that until you have the timing right with each, then do it as 1 once, back to STbutterfly for a few beats then do it again, and build it up from that. =]

I actually figured that out just after being able to do split time butterfly extensions, I did the inspin flower and then about an hour after trying that, it just kind of unwillingly turned into an antispin one. I now have a lot of trouble getting into the inspin one because it just turns into the antispin one... -.-

T-S-A: Can you rephrase that? I'm not sure what the pointy brackets are supposed to represent. I've been making a little progress in this; from the "middle positions" (one hand over the other in split time butterfly) I can make the petal off to the side and return to something roughly like the next "middle position". But my arms still refuse to get the message that no novel motions are involved, so I can't quite make it through a full cycle without pausing.

Are you talking about a triquetra? Because when I do it, I'm just threading the needle while my arms move in a circle if that helps.

Nope, talking about doing two wallplane four-petal antispin flowers with arms moving in a split-time butterfly pattern. Triquetras I have pretty much licked.

Do you know your basic CAP pattern? Cause this might actually help. Because the timing of the anti-spin is the same.
Just a suggestion!

mainly stalls and have been trying to clean up wraps but in about a week my roomates giving me his pro unicyle and im going to attempt basic moves on that aka good and hella bad times

I don't think of it so much as petals, this diagram is kinda how I learned it.



Don't know if this is a bit clearer (I don't think it's 100% accurate, but should give you an idea), but without making a video, it's the best I can do

Should make a pattern like this (unles I am doing something wrong)

I just always figured it as a compound circle flower with both poi and arms going split time opposites, thus I approached it like any other flower. First getting used to spinning arms in split/opposites, then just adding the poi. The rest is timing and reducing the amount of petals. But that diagram explains it very well also.

While in the topic of flowers, I made myself a paper sheet diagram with all the possible 64 combinations of arm/poi movement, and I'm practicing on getting those down. I just recently received my Scales Of Poi, and I'm having fun with it .

Edit: Seems that my points about the split/opp. flower had been already made before, and I was just too lazy to check the discussion. Sorry.

holy cow

you guys have a way higher standard on what constitutes beginner moves than I do.



far cooler than me working on not smacking the back of my head doing 4 beat windmills.

I agree, getting arm movements down does help a lot, I found the main issue was with timing, getting the poi heads to meet in the middle not so much the hand movements (for problems with this, I found that when the top poi is vertical just about to come down, not to put motion into it, simply let it fall into place), but for thoes who need help with hand positioning, here is another of my awesome paint pictures to guide you







Don't worry about it dude

Enjoy what you are learning now, don't rush it, other things will come in the end, Hendrix wasn't a guitar hero over night

Something that helpped with my 4bt windmills was keeping my wrists together at all time, when your hands are behind your head, if use the hand that's at the back to push the other one forward, and when your hands are in front, use the front one to push back. Keep it slow, you will have more control, and it hurts less when you hit yourself.

Remember every time you hit yourself, you are another step closer to getting it. Practicing with a mirror/reflective window also helps LOADS.

Edit: I personally wouldn't consider butterfly flowers beginner, but compared to a lot of the stuff in the advenced section, it seems pretty beginner. Should really be an intermediate section

eerggh, dont say that, Im learning how to play guitar as well! We live in an age where there is a demand for instant results.

Im now pretty happy with the windmills when leading with my right hand, still need work on my left. Funny really concidering Im left handed.

I had a crack at the butterfly flower too and I get stuck at about figure 3.5. I tend to find the harder moves way easier than the easy moves. for eg. I can do a hyperloop no worries when in a wallplane while doing fountains (I think it looks really cool- when you hit the loop dead centre and move it across your body with your palms flat its like they are doing a floating spin inbetween your hands) but I cant for the life of me do one from a 3b weave. And Im only close with a reverse weave coming from the wrong side

I changed my mind. I just read the 4 beat windmill topic in the hard section. This thread is definatly beginner in comparison. All that math made my head hurt.

Well, I know I tend to use this thread, mostly since I do not consider myself advanced.

But go with whatever you find easier. In general, you want to solidify your basics first.

Also: Mad MSPaint skills by TSA.

Aha. That one I can do. The one I'm trying to learn ends up looking like that, but sort of turned 45 degrees. The hand positions are

1) hand X above hand Y along body's center
2) both hands together off to X side
3) hand Y above X on center line
4) hands both together at Y side
5) repeat

more of a diamond pattern rather than box. Getting better at it lately, but it's still twitchy.