Bin Laden is DEAD!

Bin Laden is DEAD! He had it coming!

Now if only NATO would leave Afghanistan!

I wish people wouldn't celebrate in streets. Oh, I understand why. I lived in NYC for three years. Bastard knocked down the WTC with all those people inside it.

But still, it's distasteful. Then again, don't hold your breath waiting for my countrymen to behave tastefully.

Well, the hunt for him has taken nearly ten years, which is enough to sink into the national psyche on some level. I mean, I was in my first year of high school when it happened. (I am now 23.) That is a decent chunk of my development years.

Part of me wants to know why he was shot *after* the raid (at least, that is how I understood the report I read) instead of being brought to stand trial or something. The other part does not really care, except that "it" is now over. And the majority of me is wondering what this will actually change.

Why was he "buried at sea" as the BBC has been reporting?

Why is there no body?

Call me a cynic but...?

welllll - honestly what changes? he was retired anyway. Just another gunslinging godfather theme right here.

RC - you really believe NATO is in Afghanistan because of bin Laden?

It will be interesting to see all the facts when they finally surface...

it would be surprising, if all the facts surface one day at least to me

Rougie: I agree that that is odd.

He was buried at sea because no country wanted his body, or all the attention it would bring. I mean really, how would you like Osama Bin Laden's body buried in your back yard? I'd do the same as others and go no. i've also been told it was some religious thing, but I doubt we'd care about that considering who it is.

Seemed odd to me, but apparently he was given Muslim religious rites, his body washed, and he was buried at sea. Islamic traditions say you should be buried within 24 hours, and they didn't want a land grave that would become a shrine. It actually makes sense.

He was ID'd with facial recognition and DNA tests apparently.. and Al Qaeda has admitted he's dead, so I think we actually did get him.

There is a name I have not seen for a while. Hi Lurch.

It does make sense to not make a land grave, I agree, but it still seems odd to me. Ah well. And, like you say, al Qaeda has confirmed it as well, so probably he is dead.

SoD: Not going to get into anything in-depth, but there is nothing wrong with giving someone at least a modicum of respect, simply as a fellow human being, no matter what they have done. If he was given Muslim rites, my respect to whoever was behind that.

there are about 2[3] things I like to share on the topic:

1) opinionated

2) "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that" -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[3] though I can understand and as important for the families of those killed in 9/11 it is - by celebrating the [violent] death of a person, people show nothing but how desperate they are to realize humanity.

He should have faced trial.

FireTom, he wasn't going to face trial. First of all, he wasn't going to come. Second, a trial would mean that he would need to be kept in custody and that would have been an almost impossible security risk.

I appreciate MLK Jr's idealism, but I disagree. There are some people who are so rotten at the core that the only thing that can be done is to kill them. No amount of education, therapy, or anything else could have cleansed OBL of his hatred. I have to believe that he was born with a brain defect, hard-wired. There is no cure for an absolute lack of empathy and so if he is going to be that dangerous to others, he has to be killed. And the killing itself in this case was what was being celebrated, not the death. Finding and killing him took a lot of work and that was what most people were celebrating, the job that was done.

To quote Mark Twain: "I have never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great delight."

Just found this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arch...is-born/238220/

I'm still around every once in awhile aston, glad someone remembers my name!

I think it was an amazing gesture to grant him even the basic Muslim rites.

I am on both sides of this. I do not think that he could have stood (fair) trial and he would have been excecuted anyway.

But I still feel that if people are celebrating death, it is not quite sound. That a long-term goal is achieved, fine, even if it is the death of someone.

But yes, not wanting to start a huge debate here. Nothing we can do about him not being alive anymore in any case.

Ditto...

Thanks Mike, the quote seems misappropriated... good to know.

taken from http://jennajasso.com/mlk-i-mourn/ :



another fine read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pamela-ger...f=fb&src=sp



In the past I found it very discomforting to watch people burning "Uncle Sam" puppets and star spangled banners... what I see today is not much different and it delivers the same discomfort.

The other day there was a very stupid story on FB about a woman who wanted an abortion, she already had a child and didn't want to raise another one. The (male) doctor proposed to kill the baby in her arms instead of performing the abortion... thus talking her out of it. Some bs Christian anti-abortion mindf***
Guess she should just have said: "I dreamt it's another Osama coming..."

With all due respect for your profession and opinion, Mike - I wholeheartedly disagree. Warriors are born, terrorists are made. You're not suggesting some sort of eugenics, are you?

Oh, I am very much a eugenicist, but not in the traditional sense.

I believe that unrepentant mass-murderers are beyond reason and need to be killed. To be a mass-murderer of bin Laden's sort requires a complete lack of empathy. People with a complete lack of empathy are inherently dangerous and must not be permitted to live.

Also, neither of us was there at the raid, but I would bet there was no way he would have come. He would have taken a gun to his own head before going with American troops.

You can disagree. But did YOU lose anyone on 9/11? I did. If you had, you might feel differently.

Here is the MLK original from from A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr.



While sometimes it may be necessary to take a life and the consequence of that action may be cause for joy, the act of committing a murder should never 'in itself' be a cause for celebration.
Whether you believe the action was necessary or not, celebrating a murder is not behaviour fitting of any nation (or person) that considers itself (/themself) 'civilised'.

Whenever a person see's behaviour they feel is abhorrent they should feel compelled to behave in such a way that they themselves cannot be accused of committing similar acts. To behave in a way that you have just berated someone else for is absolutely absurd.

I think that right there is the schism. Most people don't consider this murder.. Assassination might be argued, but Osama was obviously an enemy combatant. Murder does not apply IMHO

Mike, not too much to argue here and I totally understand that those who lost loved ones in the 9/11 attacks feel relief, feel that "justice has been done" - and even happy about the fact.

How much more satisfactory would have been the fact, that on the 10th anniversary of the attacks, President Obama could announce that Mr. bin Laden has been captured and sits in Guantanamo, awaiting his trial?

Whilst "a feeling of relief" can apply to anyone... a family member, friend or bystander - the "right to live" also applies to anyone. Eating meat and vegetables is a different matter. That I feel grim relief over the death of a mosquito is a different matter.

From there to the celebration of a lost life is a big step - imho.

Might not make sense to you, but why do people (or you in this context) think of death as the ultimate, capital punishment? That's sooo .... Christian... and Western per se. Other religions have very different approach to death, the afterlife and punishment (or reward) of their actions.... Killing Mr. bin Laden... 72 virgins, thank you!

The US is one of the very few western countries still practicing the death penalty and "eugenics" (the ideology which later killed 6 Million jews) was propagated and practiced in the US/ UK way before taking off in Germany.

imho shooting Mr. bin Laden in a fire fight does in no way equal the suffering of those trapped in the twin towers, nor does it do justice to their relatives mourning for the last 9 years (and ongoing). It is again the wrong signal sent, it's again that of "an eye for an eye", one of violent revenge.

Putting Mr. bin Laden in front of an international court and leaving him in Guantanamo for the rest of his life - that would have been justice - imho.

The word 'murder' in almost any dictionary will be declared as a synonym of the word 'kill' which is defined as 'to deprive of life in any manner'.

You could easily replace the words 'committing a murder' in my post with 'taking a life' or 'killing'. It would have exactly the same meaning.

And, I think you mean most 'Americans' not most 'people'.

Most people consider 'intentional killing' whether in the street or on the battlefield (or in this case in his home while unarmed) to be a bad thing. To define times when killing is good and times when killing is bad is absurd.

As I said - unfortunately killing can sometimes be justified but, the act of killing should never be celebrated. That is disgraceful psychopathic behaviour. And behaviour that amongst western nations, you will only ever see in the US.

Got to disagree with you Seye, murder is not the same as killing. Of course killing is bad, I've never argued that. But there are times when killing is justified, whereas murder is not.

I have a feeling you guys are grossly misreading the "celebrations" that took place. It would have been the same dead or alive. If you want to point fingers and cry "shame on you" that's fine by me. You've got the right the same way I have the right to say "Hooray! the manhunt is over!".

Empathy goes both ways.

What I believe is of as much consequence as what you believe FT. I just want this to end. The only way I can see that happening is for NATO to pull up its big boy pants and leave.



Must we do this here, Seye?

I believe that the people were not celebrating his death as much as they were celebrating what they saw as justice being served, however loose you may chose to view the term justice.

It would have been justice for the man to be taken before a court, I am not sure anyone would disagree. It's also not a stretch to believe that Bin Laden was not going to be taken alive.

Lurch - I think you're splitting hairs. And my issue is with people celebrating killing. Even when it is 'justified' it is never cause for celebration 'in itself'. Every time you reach the point where there is no other option than to kill someone the human race has failed and we all lose. The cycle continues and we are all still at risk.

And RC - The scenes of celebration in the US were almost identical to the scenes from some nations when the WTC came down. At the time the world called those celebrations on 9/11 disgraceful and there's a huge number of us who say the same about the recent scenes in the US.

The argument is pointlss. I'd take a look at the nationalities of the people posting on both sides in this conversation though. You can probably take that as a fairly good indicator as to the split in oppinions of how to deal with this kind of thing around the world.

and in a twist of the story it seems as if the US government now claims that bin Laden was not armed at the time that he got shot...

this is a very unfortunate development and would clearly justify all criticism on his killing.

Seye, it might not to be at anybodies surprise here - but I'm 100% with you. Not trying to pin people off on purpose - but the cycle of violence has just been twisted the same direction. Sad indeed.

FT - I totally agree.

In yet another twist it appears that the US didn't even inform the Pakistani government / military of their intentions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13276540

So they may have entered a country illegally carried out a military execution on foreign soil without permission from (or even knowledge of) the state, taken sensitive documents and, according to some accounts, kidnapped another person.

This is truly disturbing behaviour. What's even more concerning is that the Pakistani government have expressed "deep concerns and reservations" about the US action.

This could actually be legitimate grounds for suspension or even expulsion from the UN if Pakistan decide to make a complaint. (Although I can't imagine that ever happening)

Of course - none of that has anything to do with the debate we've been having here but, it's of deep concern with regard to world politics none the less.

http://www.mofa.gov.pk/Press_Releases/2011/May/PR_152.htm


(Emphasis mine)

well it's the rule of the "biggest guns" I'd say...

of course I - knowing a bit about the region - would not have informed the Pakistani government either, unless parking in front of the gates... and it will be interesting to learn, how long he lived there and why the Pakistani govt had no knowledge of it.

it will be thrilling to witness the creativity of bin Ladens supporters in their revenge... the planet has in no way gotten safer since he was shot.

There is no need for BIG words and 'dead' is not a shortcut either..

maybe I just leave it like that:

I can understand yet feel it's strange to celebrate anybodies death with parades, champagne and waving flags. sorry that after such a long time, we're coming back here only to put each other off again. it's a cultural thing. it's an educational thing and it's an ethical thing. i can't find any "christian values" in that either. I love you as individuals, but for me that social cookie cutter distorts the light shining from you...

thanks for sharing opinions anyway.

I for one think celebrating death is a little ridiculous, but also, celebrating this death. What did it solve? Will terrorism end now that he's dead? Was getting himself killed just part of his plans?

I've looked. I really only see one nationality in particular with a wide range of veiws on the matter.

I am just trying to put the best face on my fellow human beings and bring another way of looking at it to the table. It really is all about the media's choice on what to cover. 4000 out of 310 million people celebrating Bin Laden's death in 2 locations... 12000 out of a billion people in 6 locations celebrating the fall of the WTC... That is not the best way to guage a people's standards.

Those whom may be celebrating Bin Laden's death are unfit to judge him and his deeds, so too, are those that would judge them that are celebrating Bin Laden's death. I understand what you are saying but forgive me if I also still see a deep bias on your part. I am sure that hundereds if not thousands of examples of discraceful acts can be found in any western country, maybe not over the death of Bin Laden but disgraceful all the same. Riots over austerity measures, insulting pictures of an important religious figure, laws that impose on a human being's fundamental right to observe their religious attire in public, holidays celebrating a man that attempted to blow up parliament, ect. ect. ect.

As for what was and wasn't done legally... PFT! Bin Laden is probably alive and well after cutting a deal with the US gov.

FT: What is this 'Christian' thing I keep hearing about?

RC: it's not within "christian values" to celebrate a lost life - at least not today, at least not in the West. Chancellor Merkel gets a lot of beating for a comment, that she feels "happy" about the killing of bin Laden - even from the church.

however: I understand the more, when reading into US media propaganda just how much you guys get hammered with nationalism every freaking hour of the day.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110504/us_time/08599206932700 interesting read



There are essential pieces of information, I mean HUGE CHUNKS just missing... I'd guess bin Laden "hated" the US so much because of exactly the same reasons: because (he thought) they want to control everybody in the world, control how everybody has to think and what everybody has to do...

I stick to it: it's a cultural thing. One beyond understanding.

It was pure sarcasm FT.

that's alright RC, no worries...

Meanwhile the evidence is narrowing down. I'd say he was shot by intent - as such it would be murder (not homicide or manslaughter). Maybe his "threatening move" was to raise his middle finger, maybe more maybe nothing. Interesting that the transmission of this operation was allegedly disrupted for exactly the time they were inside the building and shot him. All matter for loads of speculation and simply another staged drama...

Personally I don't need an image, to me it doesn't really matter whether he's dead, alive somewhere or never really existed, worked for the US govt or not... it's more about the circumstances and well, yea - about the reaction of people in this regard.

I do understand that the US govt. didn't inform Pakistan, but it's incredibly arrogant and another intrusion of a sovereign nation. I wish they would finally stop to send drones over Pakistan and Afghanistan... it appears like random killing and a practice field... like a sick video game only that it seems to be real people who are getting killed without proper court hearing.