Loc: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire
Ahhh now I understand... I'll check that out when I'm not at work.
Um, continuation of the thread...
One thing I've been thinking about recently is the use of planes in staff juggling. There seems to be an emphasis on doing things in wall plane, which is understandable because of the obvious appeal of cascade and shower based patterns in that plane. If you look at club juggling though, a lot of the "spinnier" type moves are best viewed in wheel plane, think mikes mess, 504(underspins), flourishes etc.
Taking that idea then what sorts of movements are available for staffs in this plane?
Underspins - we can do the usual club type underspins, with the addition that half-spins work as well as full spins. Works nice underspinning both the staves in your hands a half turn in opposite directions.
Flourishes - I'm not quite sure what counts as a flourish with staves as we're pretty much always spinning them, but its perfectly possible (although you'll need to be better than me to run) to do a normal club flourish.
Mikes mess - not tried it but would probably look really nice.
Thats the obvious stuff then, but what else would be possible, and less likely to burn your elbows with fire?
One move I've been attempting, and so far failing with quite badly, is a reverse flower (arms moving backwards in the top half of the circle) with a 3rd staff. A throw happens each half turn of the arm-circle and would create an effect similar to that of a 31 with 2 diabolos.
I also think it would be possible (but much more difficult) to do the same thing with forward moving arms and throws happening behind the head.
So, does anyone else have any nice wheel-plane staff juggling tricks?
The thing withs the planes is quite amusing, When I started working properly in pattern development, the hardest bit was to translate club patterns from wheel into wall plane. It took us quite a while to get into it, .just like 2 years later, it seems to be `usual`
For funky planes, hm I belive that 3 Staff juggling is simply a new prop in the world of 3 object patterns. Logicly the first step is to translate existing patterns from other props, in order to gain understanding. This was very well done by antti and his swinging cascade and the legendary shower, aswell as his wonderfull 423 variation. I had the pleassure to translate mills mess, mikes mess, backcrosses (easy to translate, hard to juggle rubensteisnrevenge, showermill . Even more patterns where translated by the whole wonderfull scene (rob, josh, tim, ima .. most on this threat..
For me the next step would be to work out chracteristics which are unique to staff juggling, to contribute to 3 object patterns and inspire back the club/ring/ball jugglers. This seems more interesting than going back to see what else is done by clubs, rings and keep on translating towards staff. -donīt get me wrong, inspiration is wicked, but also inspiring back feels good
example: florish towards staff is simple, which kind of spin /wrap/?? can be interesting todo with clubs ?
Well what makes staff as a juggling prop unique -I belive the continious spin (look at staff patterns like "the logic") or antispin-isolation-hybrid throws. Otherwise it is `just` the same old "backcross patter" done with different object.
Don`t get me wrong, thats all I can do, and I love it, to train and perform, but I belive the future will bring more creativity coming from accepting that staff is a "normal" throwing-object, BUT with special features.
Coming back to planes again, I just played around with triangle planes (wallplane in front of body, 90°plane In the back)
the patterns look similar to wallplane ones, and I didnt have the urge to find the 2,3 treasure patterns in this planes which stand unique trough all characteristics and specialities of triangle planes. lame
allright, thats a long post with not much of an answer to your question well it killed time at work
and jonny, about "dawn of soy", as said before, i belive it would need a clear concept about how & why to continue this important story in staff throwing history. also why including different artists in it,...otherwise it would be a shame to use that briliant videos just for a reason to produce another staff video...what does antti think?
_told the fishfable to wes peden
_heard gloria gaynors "i will survive" 3 times live allready....in the same 20 min performance!
hi johnny,its great to see you here, seb its nice to here you have a job reagarding the planes/clubs/staffs debate i cant put my opinions into words very clearly yet,but i do feel we should try and maintain some integrity to our juggling rather than just attempting club patterns with staffs i belive we should bring out the best in our chosen prop. for me this includes the use of fire and glow,i always try to consider the asethtics of my tricks,hoping to create a beautiful pattern that my audience will like to see. wether or not i manage this is another matter sending love at all of you,you mad crazy hippies
Loc: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire
I meant less "lets go steal a load of club tricks" and more "lets not get holed into a certain type of staff juggling"
I meant more that an easy place to start with looking at a concept, i.e. wall plane tricks would be to look at what people do with other props, then move on from there.
Seb, your response did jig something in my brain though. I had kind of assumed that most "aerial" (in the air) effects had been discovered by jugglers and we were limited to exploring the contact elements, and patterns underneath the object(s) in the air (so flourishes in juggling terminology).
I still think that jugglers have discovered almost all the ways of throwing an object, but realised that due to the size of the staffs they can be used much more to make a complete picture even when they remain in the hands.
Think about the ideas that came forward in the antispin thread where people were discussing how to draw "pictures" via the paths of the wicks. When adding a third staff we can expand the range of pictures while still having one complete image (not a spin pattern with the arms and a staff high in the air above it) by throwing a staff fairly low and moving the others in relation to it.
Even this though will benefit from knowing the base juggling patterns such as mills, ruebenstein etc however so that you can take the arm movements and play with antispining/isolating/etc the staffs.
So, I still think that when taking a new concept to apply to staff juggling, looking first to the existing juggling community is useful in order to learn those elements common to all props, before we expand on them.
Hey wwffj, I think you've got a lot of these ideas nice and straight in your head.
I'm glad that you're not underestimating what can be done with the staffs in the air especially when you consider Tim's aesthetics and how he shows them (just a few keystrokes off assthetics with that typo Tim - something that'd be interesting to explore ). i.e. the patterns we see in our mind can often only be shown to an audience by letting it linger for longer and join up as it does with fire and glow. I think you kinda said it in your last post, but it bears clarifying that staffs are also capable of movement that's impossible for a club in the air !, they just move so differently and - of course - can be illuminated at both ends, instantly doubling the complexity of their traces (it'd be good if someone could dig out a picture of Seb and Josh passing with fire at Uberparis as this is the image that sticks in my head when I think of this point).
Tim, I'd be interested in a clarification of what you mean by integrity in this context. Though I agree that "we should bring out the best in our chosen prop," I'd say that "just attempting club patterns" has 'integrity' if you've chosen a club pattern that you think will bring out the best in our prop (I realise that your use of the word 'just' in the quote probably refers to poorly-thought-out trick choice). I think Bastl has done this very well as, unless I'm mistaken, he chose which club tricks to translate based on how well they'd suit staff and, often, what he thought they'd look like with fire (less so these days with the fire as he's exploring other avenues).
Btw, though I agree that tricks that involve stopping the staff between each throw aren't aesthetically pleasing (at least to me) with staffs, let's not forget that a lot of the coolest tricks that Seb has translated (mills', mike's etc.) already involve occasional stops. So let's not be afraid of well placed stops! (aah the sound of the fire when you stop and start again )
Coming back to staffs in wheel plane, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I'd like to see that behind the head forward wheel plane throw work without shoulder dislocation though as I can't imagine it being possible any other way :P Also, I may have posted it here already, but the reverse flower thing you proposed would also be very nice as a reverse antispin flower (with the other hand doing the bottom half). Definately possible as I do it in the wall plane from an antti (swingy) cascade.
In summary to a very long post (I'm avoiding work OK ), if we all remember what we're juggling and don't lose sight of what our props look like (unless we want too), I'm sure our little community won't become a poor parody of club juggling.
Miss you all guys, I hope the EJCers amongst us are having a great time.
Whoops, forgot to say watch out! Mind your wrists throwing staffs in wheel plane as, depending on your staffs and where you're holding, they may need a lot more help to get rotating. Make sure you're not adding the extra rotation from the wrist (I know this might be obvious, but I'd rather be a little patronising than hear of someone getting hurt)
.... When adding a third staff we can expand the range of pictures while still having one complete image (not a spin pattern with the arms and a staff high in the air above it) by throwing a staff fairly low and moving the others in relation to it.
good luck, i am interessted to see what your research brings out. my experience shows that low throws mean less time todo anything else than catch and throw again but go one, do the work and surpise us.
i would guess 423 is the siteswap with the most variations. the "2" in it gives you a moment of time to bring in all sorts of elements, (body throws, antispins, spins, guestures...) and its fairly easy to learn.
so might be a good place to start exploring ideas including staff specific momevemnts
yo tim for me UV, fire and LEDs are just effects and not something staff specific. you can find these effects in all sorts of props. true is that these effects have a long history in the spinning community.
for me it gets more and more interesting to create a story for an act, and than play arround inside of the concept to create specific staff designs. (also to choose which tricks / iamges would support the concept the most)
if its just for fooling arround, i like to support different features of the staff or topic such as: throws...flying...birds...feathers: take a feather boa and wrap it arround a light throwing staff, damn thats fun to throw that in the air & wait tricky though, to make the design long lasting
hm about all this siteswaps, for me they are ideas, free to use for every prop. yes there are many of them allready, but geniuses like sean gandini are always exploring more and more
important is what to use them for?: performance, fun, brainfucking, showing off?
if you want to impress a juggling audience than do it staff specific, if you want to interesst a "normal audience" than you anyway need to perform clean and best: tell a story.
wwffj: i would say basic patterns are cascade & reverse cascade, mills allready is quite complex.
yo tommy well yes some of the tricks where inspired by the imagination of them performed with fire. also some of them came from bets and drunken nights
one thing i would love to see: do a mikes mess, BUT do it with snake throws AND snake catches....this will shape the following: 1 staff high in the air spinng underneath an isolation spin of 2 staffs i wanna see
well there are endless posibliies, but one idea stays: whatever you come up with, train it clean, so it is enjoyable for an audience and other juggler.
allright back to work...damn electicians
_told the fishfable to wes peden
_heard gloria gaynors "i will survive" 3 times live allready....in the same 20 min performance!
although i love posting on here i find it frustraing becasue i struggle to express myself clearly and even when i check a thread again and again,i never seem to get my point across like i want to! for me, my priority is firestaff juggling not staff juggling,by integrity i mean i want to perform tricks not just because they exsist but because they make my flaming staffs look good,(the focus being on the ends of the staff)as well as making me look good the little work i have done with glow staffs i have tried to use tricks which show off the staffs to their best(the focus being on the full length of the staff depending on the type) i agree bastl and others have converted club patterns to clubs very well,my favourite fire staff pattern so far is the RHD pattern because it looks so good with fire. when thinknig about all of this i am torn between my love of juggling and my love of perfoming,perfoming nearly always wins as my dream is make a living from my staffs but there will always be a conflict within me as to where i should spend my practise time.
i also agree with the point that stops and direction changes arent always bad.
seb regarding telling a story i dont agree that it is the best way to entertain,i agree that it is one way to entertain and can be very entertaining but i have never told a story with my staffs i know i can rock a "normal" crowd as well as anyone.people have often encouraged me to take on a character when performing but i dont feel the need(verging on going off thread?) i also know of many jugglers both modern and in history who have entertained perfectly without any story telling,(mr gandini to use your example) so while i agree that story telling is great,i dont agree that it is best,i do however really respect your passion and the direction it is taking you
wwffj as for drawing circles i think its a great way to be inspired and creative and someting i have attempted in my own practise.the effect similar to a kid with a sparkler is alway a big inspiration for me.
i hope the above makes some sense cos im to tired to rewrite it!
im finiding this thread very interesting and also chalenging my own thoughts and opinions which has got to be good, nice work peeps
finaly i agree whatever we do we should do it as clean as we can and with enjoyment
hey guys you wanna make the soy thing happen? Iīve got a great intro (or atleast thats what I think)... You know the bathroom scene from "the shining"? Where Jack beats in the door with an axe? Wouldnīt it be great to use that as the intro but instead of the axe there would be a firestaff!
As for concept goes, how about making Soy no.3 the last and biggest homage to RHD and the origins of staff juggling?
Tim. There's a number of stories or charcters that can be presented with just a small addition to your outfit and a set routine.
Simply choose three moods (eg anger, heartbreak and happiness) and split that mood into three seperate music tracks and style of performance.
anger could be lots of speed, sharp hard movements and the angry face
Heartbreak can be lots of slow contact, hands turned to the sky, lots of ground work and lying on the stage, almost lethargic.
Happiness can be bouncing or jumping , lots of high throws, pirouettes and twirly fancy nothingness at the end of your arms...
If you can have three emotions played across a performance, even without a story, it can have a real impact on both your audience, and you, and it's not that hard, especially when setting it to three type of music.
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Your last post made perfect sense, crystal clear in fact. I think the length of the posts in the thread reflect the thought that people are putting into staff juggling - it's good to see
In my opinion, you're doing the right thing by following the performance path that feels right for you and, I also think that your style seems appropriate for the kind of gigs you do. I'd say the same for Bastl (though there is, of course, an overlap).
I guess that I'm in the camp that thinks it's important to 'be yourself' in your performance, whether that's by performing as yourself or choosing a character that matches your personality / story and I think that 'performance Tim' matches real Tim very well.
@Johnny: Soy3 response seems lukewarm, maybe time for a new concept? Or maybe we're all just lazy gits! either way, I look forward to any fresh ideas you come up with and I agree that the timing is right for a new video (but I always say that)
hi charles, i understand that it is possible to portray a particular story or emmotion through performance i just dont have any desire to do so.i am very happy to put lots of emmotion into my performance and hope that my audience appreciates that but i have no desire to tell a fictional story or express an emotion that i am not feeling. the only story i wish to tell is that of a man called tim who likes juggling and spininig with fire staffs. i have been encouraged in the past to take on a fictional character, but my reply is that i AM a character and if my own character isnt enought then there is nothing more i can do! i do appreciate however that other people choose to tell stories through their performace and when it is done well it can be very entertaining.
back on thred again are any staff jugglers going to bristol convention?
Niko Its great to see some new staff jugglers posting videos, nice work dude,the 3 staff shower is a tricky pattern and its always nice to see someone learn it. If it was me i would get lighter staffs and work on throwing them higher, this should give you more time to get the patterns cleaner, also be aware that long periods of training the shower can be seriously bad for your throwing shoulder, it took me a long time to sort mine out after hammering the shower pattern, i only train the shower pattern from a maintenance point of view,not to learn any new tricks, bastl taught me the cascade which i am now obsessed with, it s a great pattern a lot easier to learn than the shower, anyway good work and meery christmas
i am preparing a nice list that should prove useful for staff jugglers. will definitely be up on here (maybe with video, if my camera has decided to not be broken - about 50% chance...) in january (it as to be ready for the 5th for something else).
2 and 3 staff siteswaps and standard patterns, with variations basic 4 staff patterns and multiplexes two person patterns
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
WWFF As far as Im aware there are no basic four staff juggling patterns, Ive only ever seen two four staffs patterns juggled. Ive seen the fourstaff fountain on videos but never done cleanly, Ive seeh josh and myself juggle the four staff shower but only josh is clean, Im wouldnt be suprised if josh has a new pattern or two but i dont know as he keeps very quiet about these things!! Rob it will be great to see your new patterns although the description of basic is something we would have to debate.Are you sure you havent been at the Christmas gin bottle?(i would put a cheeky winking icon here is i could find them!) Merry christmas you lovely people xxx xx x PS please can someone buy seb some trousers for christmas