USofA - why there is (still) hope, IMHO

f it.

There's way more to American culture. You left out Britney Spears, Heinz ketchup, or Spongebob Squarepants. What about Mormons, or Microsoft?

It's weird you use brands to identify your culture... Strange.

wow. you just described Australia!

Ha, thats what I thought too. Capitalism at its pinnacle ^_^

Guys, you cannot underestimate the importance of ketchup in American society. It is our greatest condiment, our burgers and fries and dogs would suffer in it's absence. What would we make our delectable barbecue sauces out of? Freakin' mayonnaise?
Believe me, once you live here long enough, you quickly see most everything is branded in some way. Everything has a logo on it in some way or another, be it a North Face jacket, a Craftsman miter saw or a Kenmore refrigerator. If we're talking about objects then of course it's going to be branded in some way. Do any of you make your own down jackets or electrical appliances? Where did you get your nice poi from? Did you make the straps, chain and ball entirely from scratch or did you order them from somewhere like HoP or Dube, or some other supplier? Nobody here that's using a computer to use the internet to come to this online store that is the brand Home of Poi can complain too much about capitalism, no matter which part of the globe you live on. American or not we are more or less in this together!
Thanks FireTom for the general show of support. What makes this country special is the land and the people. America encompasses enough space to basically include all geographic types presented elsewhere in the world. There are snowcapped mountains, barren deserts, endless pine forests, swamps, plains, rain forests. This diversity of land is only surpassed by the diversity of its people. We aren't the best people in the world, but there's a hell of a lot of us with a lot of different view points and that's one of the things that makes this country special. Where I live in this country includes a large population of Hispanic people from all parts south of our border and the islands. They enrich our culture with their own and I see them as a welcome change in this country. Not to mention that Puerto Ricans breed some of the most beautiful women I've seen in this world! ;p
But at the same time it is that diversity which can make things difficult for the type of change other people observing us would wish for. Everybody's view of change, be it positive or negative is entirely subject to somebody else's view of right and wrong. And on the same token, not everyone has the time or will to seek the change they would like to see. Some people are fickle and simply do not care to make their mark on the world. A lot of other people do not have the time of day even if they wanted to. People have families, their own lives and worries that consume to much of their life and prevents them from seeking to change the bad aspects of American cultures. Hell I'd rather be climbing a mountain or exploring an unknown cave system than protesting in the streets or making up petitions unless the lives of my friends and family really came down to it. Is this state of the people really that much different than anybody else you know in your own lands?
So to sum it up:
1. Brands are everywhere nowadays here and the only reason anything else we've made hasn't been branded or owned by somebody else is because it would be against our constitution.
2. The only thing that makes Americans different from anybody else in the world is that we live in America. We aren't special, just human.

P.S. And personally, there are aspects to capitalism I enjoy. I'm an artist who makes glasswares and sells them independently. I have the freedom to make things that I like and express myself and actually try and make money off of it. Capitalism in it's basic form isn't entirely evil, it's the people that abuse it that have turned this country into what it is and how it affects all of you guys. People get gouged every day, but it gives people the freedom to find a niche for themselves and gouge back at the wealthier people who end up having the disposable income to buy stuff back from people like myself. Phew I'm done. If anybody's read this rant to the very end, I'm impressed with your patience!

Happy New Year everyone!
The branding of everything is not a good thing, if anything it's become a burden in American society to see how many and what kind of brands one has. Our society sure cherishes it's labels and taglines, that can't be denied. But it is the state of things, and it will perpetuate unfortunately.
For example, areas in a lot of our major cities suffer from the fact the fact that the only color in them comes mainly from billboards, signs , advertisements, and from the clothes people wear. Streets and sidewalks are grey, the buildings are grey, stone or brick. A lot of flat, cold colors. So when you look down a street, that is all the eye has to be drawn to, the signs on buildings and window advertisements!

Capitalism requires very little effort aside from being perfectly willing to screw over everyone you might ever come in contact with. And the lower a person is willing to sink, usually the better off they will end up. Sucks for most Americans, and for a lot of people globally that this is what we were born into. The competition of trying to make it, the society of labels where everything is owned by somebody. It's all most of us have ever been able to deal with and like it or not, it's what comes natural to many people. We can read and talk all we want about theories of other forms of government and economy. We can try and implement some or a lot of those ideas, and maybe some things will stick. But that's not going to stop the next person from being unscrupulous and not pulling some cheap trick to make a little more money. And many people in the world simply do not care for whatever reason to change that in any way. A lot of people want things to stay this way because they figured out how to benefit.

In many ways our human society is still a vast jungle full of nice and nasty critters running around trying not to die the longest. Pity that it has become very cannibalistic of late!

To the citizens of the United States of America,
in light of your failure to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II resumes monarchical duties over all States, Commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy.

Your new prime minister (The Right Honourable Gordon Brown, MP for the 97.8% of you who have, until now, been unaware there's a world outside your borders) will appoint a Minister for America. Congress and the Senate are disbanded. A questionnaire circulated next year will determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid your transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1.Look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Check "aluminium" in the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you pronounce it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour'. Likewise you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary."

2.Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed." There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not mature enough to cope with bad language then you should not have chat shows.

3.There is no such thing as "U.S. English." We'll let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u'.

4.You should learn to distinguish English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to c--kney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). Scottish dramas such as 'Taggart' will no longer be broadcast with subtitles. You must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon." If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g. Texasshire, Floridashire, Louisianashire.

5.You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out Task 1.

6.You should stop playing American "football." There's only one kind of football. What you call American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.2% of you aware there is a world outside your borders may have noticed no one else plays "American" football. You should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls.

Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play Rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies).

You should also stop playing baseball. It's not reasonable to host an event called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of America. Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called "rounders," which is baseball without fancy team stripe, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs.

7.You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns, or anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable peeler. Because you are not sensible enough to handle potentially dangerous items, you need a permit to carry a vegetable peeler.

8.July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday. It will be called "Indecisive Day."

9.All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left. At the same time, you will go metric without the benefit of conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

10.Learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips. Fries aren't French, they're Belgian, though 97.8% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Potato chips are properly called "crisps." Real chips are thick cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer which should be served warm and flat.

11.The cold tasteless stuff you call beer is actually lager. Only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer." Substances once known as "American Beer" will henceforth be referred to as "Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine," except for the product of the American Budweiser company which will be called "Weak Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine." This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.


12.The UK will harmonise petrol prices (or "Gasoline," as you will be permitted to keep calling it) for those of the former USA, adopting UK petrol prices (roughly $6/US gallon, get used to it).

13.Learn to resolve personal issues without guns, lawyers or therapists. That you need many lawyers and therapists shows you're not adult enough to be independent. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, you're not grown up enough to handle a gun.

14.Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.

15.Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776).

Thank you for your co-operation.

John Cleese

*Edited to updated world events

Haha... awesome. Though... not really... Sad to think that I agree with some points in this--especially 6, 7, 10, and 13. XD
This is why I ask about Australia, for the record. lol

--me--

funny, but so so wrong....Hold on, I must let this undulate (und-you-late)(redneck: un-dull-8) for a moment in my mind...

Ahem... 1 the queen is nothing but an old hag! There I said it. Hahahahaha
2- You can only have Utah...
3- We doesn't need no help with our vocibulary, we speaks good.
4- There is an "H' in hello, it's not pronounced "elllo" Nor is this site called Ome of Poi
5-What is a crumpet?
6- Sherlock Holmes or James Bond, who's going to win?
7- Baseball is cricket with a less stupid name. Do you call 'football' 'grasshopper?'
8- We will kill "Literally" before we let gas prices got that high.
9- Guns and therapists are good, but you forgot about 'Self-Help-Books, McDonalds, drugs and alcohol, and ______ for Dummies books.
10-Did you mean therapists or the rapists? Huh?
11- You know, like, totally, and such.
12- The CIA killed JFK.
13- Or perhaps it was bad tea....
14- We don't just like cheap excuses for beer, we love cheap excuses for beer.
15- And last but not least. Give us a break guys... Your country had been ripe with corruption for hundreds of years before we even came to be. But we are catching up quickly. We understand your indignation with having your Red Coat army sent back to the motherland with your tails in between your legs like a bunch of 'nacies.' We apologize for throwing your tea in the ocean, it started out as just a party, but things got out of hand... But seriously, British influence is still so string on America it is unbelievable. The queen knighted George W. Bush for god's sake. We are following in your greedy banking footsteps, and we have been in debt to Britain since the times of the revolution (I.E. They helped fund it, wierd huh? Like us helping to fund Osama Bin Laden) Seriously, we love you brits, you be our brotha's from anotha motha--land. Much love, and all in jokes, peace.

*string- Strong

nice reply, but I would like to point out that with 6, sherlock Holmes vrs James Bond.... It doesnt really matter - they are both British

Dear WoodlandApple,
Upon reading your very amusing post I came to the conclusion that if it was possible to have internet babies, you would be the on my top ten list of very possible donors. I'd like to take this time to congratulate you on becoming number 4.

Yours,
Very seriously
TJF

P.S. This list changes frequently as you can see in the "I'm NOT drunk thread" so also note, you're only as good as your last post. Kind regards.

yeah i was perplexed by that...

I'd point out that Bond would kill Sherlock, but the event would later be retconned into a dangerous fall which Sherlock survived due to reader pressure

Wow, that was like so beautiful in it's simplistic honesty. Good one there FireTom

However, both were played by Americans in movies. So who would win? I say mono y mono Sherlock would woop him, Bond is nothing without his fancy weapons and cars. But if we want to battle, who would win in a fight, Q or Oprah, the Q or the O? Britain or America?

Oprah and her 9000 penis'? Q, just because he wouldn't have fallen for such a clear trolling attempt.

Sherlock Holmes Vs Ace Ventura
James Bond Vs Maxwell Smart

mighty mouse Vs Danger mouse ?!?!?!!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?!?!!!

Ugh! Even after North America and Europe are one confederation, this rivalry will continue won't it?

No offense FireTom, I respect humility above all else, but your other innuendos often speak volumes. Some things you can still hear when they are not spoken and see when they are not on display. More often then not they are objectification in my personal view. That being said, I think the conflict is one of contradiction for me when reading one thing you've authored that sets a decisively general tone, then another such as the one above.

"what still gives me hope are not nations and their politricks... but individuals..."

IMHO, this individual, Brandon Neely, is simply part of a great social upheaval occurring in The US. I do, however, understand and agree with the train of thought you've set out with, in this instance. Some of your others, not so much.

Do you know what I love about Australia? Aside from, they should learn how to say fish and chips properly and fix their one dollar and two dollar coins so they make sense.

It's just like The US, and there are individuals that still give me hope....

hell no!!

and there will always be rivelry. Even with the euro union, the countries that make it up still fly their own flag; represent their own country in the olympic games. America will always drive on the wrong side of the road.

Good point on rivalry WLA. I think "hell no" was a good point too, but I don't think you had on stubbies when you wrote it.

As for driving on the wrong side, you'll hear little argument from me. I am far more concerned that their light switches are upside down.

ha, Im too much of a hippy to be an okka.

You know what, I take back what I said earlier. There is no longer any hope for America...

that was pretty funny.

Love the 'Freak out video', but totally fake. Was he trying to shove that remote up his ass?

FT get some footage of the German idiots that called in a strike on civilians and give up beating the American horse. Seriously, your bias is becoming tedious!

Hey did anybody hear a plane flying from Poland to Russia crashed and almost a hundred people died including the Polish president and the top members of their government while going to create peace and solidarity for past war crimes. But oh wait, the United States can't be blamed so I guess this really wasn't news worthy.

R. Crew, it really looks like it. It makes no sense, but strangely it makes more sense than say stabbing a remote into the small of his back. All I've got to say is good luck for that kid finding a girlfriend. Having millions of hits is one thing, but completely different for being known as that guy kind of drains the glamour. You'd think he'd learn to not have such tantrums!

it was totally news worthy and was pages long all through british newspapers. just not in the USA, which seems to have enough news of its own about itself

on topic... after reading a book about the camorra in italy and a reflection on Australia in the 1970s, i really dont think that the US is in any worse a situation than anywhere else in the world, just that its economic power has made everyone look at it more. i´d like to elaborate but time constraints are in place

It was pages long in the States too. Bren was just being sarcastic, noting that the Polish tragedy wasn't even mentioned in HoP, and other things seem far more note worthy to some individuals.

Majestik, I believe that you've made the one point would all agree on. The tears of the world....

but in addition: RC - thanks for pointing out that I come across as passive aggressive (or biased)... there actually is as much "wrong" anywhere else on the planet - I notice that - and only because I have started quite a number of threads "targeting" the US it appears as if I'm turning a blind eye on this fact.

Actually I tried to balance it with here, but seem to again fail miserably...

the republican in me wants to talk, but the rationalist in me tells him to keep in check

honestly right now we're being a little wacky, and I'm not happy with our current administration but its still my home, so I will defend it to the end, even if I'm simultaneously punching it myself

'Mein Kampf', was a good title as well.

Are the eyes soooooo blue here too?

My mother is American, so I may be injecting some emotion and bias of my own. I didn't grow up here but it's a terribly beautiful part of me that goes back 10,000 years.

I will agree that the US is a tempest and self-glorifying, but they are equally cynical of themselves. Have you not seen the Simpsons?(just one example of many) If I am not mistaken it doesn't get any more Americana.

I have found no evidence that you aren't ready to condemn the US. I'd like to understand the nature of your obsession. It has appeared as malevolence for lack of engagement or believing what you WANT to believe regardless of the facts.

Is it not 'self glorification' to point out the flaws of one society when all are as equally flawed. Is this meant to make one's society feel better about their own misdeeds?

I've had time to understand the American mind. They aren't as stupid as they act. I am chilled to the bone at how clever they are capable of being. They think in a context I wish I could, and when they choose to express it, I find I am moved into the most humbled part of my being.

The fact that you used the words 'passive aggressive' shows that you have given it consideration. I just believe balance is not achieved here.

I would suggest actually engaging someone. Learn to understand them. Why, is one hell of a way to encourage someone to look at the possibilities. I say encourage them to be less complacent about what's happening in the world. Ridicule only makes people angry and strengthens their resolve.

The Americans on HoP, for the most part, aren't your stereotypical, overly arrogant Americans. They are undeserving of this type of ridicule. They get it and would change America for the better, faster, if they could.

I wouldn't say that you have failed. I would say that you have done exactly what you set out to do.(Isn't English beautiful?)

RC, don't worry about him or his opinions, he has every right to have them and you have every right to determine their value! One reason why I personally departed for awhile (which I will do again at will in terms of the social forums on here) is because I refuse to attempt to rationalize with irrationality period nor am I willing to do be a part of any discussion that has no checks and balances, let alone a worthwhile purpose. The majority of SD is a bunch of liberal wonderland, hypothetical griping with a lack of realism so Americans you will get this post and you guys convinced me to come back so here it goes.

RC, I'm only hoping in to tell you and every other American on here why they are awesome. Yeah we're all pretty disgusted with our country, but when aren't we? If we weren't disgusted we'd be a bunch a bunch of lazy bums and a bunch of push overs, we're not because we're American so while these guys make it look like their lives are just wonderful with all their volunteering and happy, easy going lives they have to make threads like this because they can't even make a change in their own lives and build their own way because they were brought up in a system that equalizes everyone and provides for those who some don't deserve while charging everyone for it. I don't want that existence, it would make me depressed if I were oppressed by it and I'd write a bunch of schmack about a country that I wish I had their rights, freedom, and ability to determine my own destiny and status because they don't have the right to control these systems oppressing them in their own governments. I honestly feel that if FireTom were an American he would have a thick skin like us and he would have a plethora of the positive character traits that come along with making your way through through our proving ground, it's all good that he likes doing things his way because it is his life and he is the determiner of what works for him.

We're lucky that we have the Bill Of Rights, Civil Rights, and that "every man for themselves" way of life that keeps us striving to do well and survive. A lot of the people on here don't have the survival instincts that we do and if they don't need them that's fine, but us Americans who must have this will rise to challenges as needed and have the reflexes to raise the odds in our success. Being a Libertarian I believe our government is too big, ineffective, and that there is no such thing as a free lunch, plus the government needs to butt out of our private lives and know it's place, so is this country ideal yet for me? Absolutely not, but I will take it over European societal structure any day because outside of being in the right tribal culture or commune, there is nothing even close to what the USA was intended to be thus far.

I'll fight the good fight until we get this place where it needs to be, but until then, I'm more than happy to earn my own way, pay my dues, travel from state to state freely, settle where the laws and community structure best suits me *gets to move in October and has fingers crossed for something awesome*, understand that charity starts at home, and rock out with style because of my freedom of speech and freedom of expression. If anyone has a problem with my small amount of decadence (that I pay a great deal for in more ways than one) I work for it, I earned it, and they can get over it because that is one of the components of freedom. I feel horrible that other places don't have these freedoms, but America shouldn't be the world police/rebuilder for many important reasons. We are not perfect (no one is), we make mistakes, we work hard, we care a lot, and there is no opinion in this world that can take these things away from us. If we're foolish enough to listen to half witted criticisms coming from outsiders who don't see our daily grind, we deserve the implications that we allow. I'm not allowing it, it's everyone's choice to give credit or discredit or ambivalence to any incoming phenomena.

Yeah and anyone who wants to hold the majority of our citizens accountable for things they did not do (i.e. Government Decisions, whatever the UN/NATO demands of us, The Federal Reserve and the international stock exchange, etc. etc. etc...) they can get over it because only a few people made those decisions/mistakes, our land (the actual USA geographically) and our citizens, along with our state and local government officials have nothing to do with any of it. It just sounds foolish to blame America when you can ordinarily write the actual names on a piece of paper who made a dumb decision/law/bill.

They don't want to live like us and we don't want to live like them, it's perfectly fine and why we have so many countries and different societal constructs that we do on this planet. It's all good! Anyways, honestly the USA doesn't need "hope" and it doesn't matter if an outsider has it or not, we just need to ditch the complacency and rise to the occasion on a larger level than we regularly do. Treaties and ties to Europe started most of the harm that is still perpetuated today so those in glass house shouldn't throw stones, but we need to do out part for our own well being to rid ourselves of interventionalism and the blowback on all levels that it brings regardless of who got the ball rolling.

Alright no one else is saying it so....

America- YEAH
Coming again to save the mother day yeah

Okay I'm not doing the whole song.

EoN you've said it quite well, a lot better than what I originally planned on posting so we'll leave it at that. All I will say is that people see a person much differently than that person views himself.

Bonus points for anybody who doesn't edit their posts and sticks to what they've claimed....

FT: Walter Moers... I have seen a few of his political cartoons, but that is about it. I will watch your link when my friend Anja comes over later this week, some translation from a native would help.

What gives ME hope when looking at the US? I'm not sure hope is appropriate, I think their capacity for charity is astounding. Maybe one day there will be a thread about the world and why there is still hope

Bren: I can't believe you said it! I pissed myself through that entire flick! It was like the Simpsons on steroids. I can't wait for June when everyone is here, we can shoot guns and eat McDonalds, drink Coca Cola and talk about how the USA is number 1 and God's chosen country, LOL.

EoN: "Anyways, honestly the USA doesn't need "hope" and it doesn't matter if an outsider has it or not, we just need to ditch the complacency and rise to the occasion on a larger level than we regularly do." EXACTLY!

Get over it and over yourself. Lulz Hypocrisy much? Compared to that illusion of a "lazy bum, spoiled rotten existence" you gave for your next 20 days in an exotic land I'm suffering more than you ever thought compared to you!

How is it you know a rant is addressed to you and no one else can seem to read your steadily edited posts and you're always misunderstood? You must be so much smarter than us dumb rednecks over here in the US of A! *bad hick accent*

You need to get your facts straight about the middle east and who bombed who into the stone age first (the Russians did it in the 70s taking Afghanistan right out of modern status for example, those mines are still blowing off limbs to this day over there from the USSR), plus that area has been at war steadily for over 5,000 years yet you want to focus on the wrongs America has done for 200? Do you know why people wanted to get the [censored] out of Europe??? That's really cute, you keep on doing what you do and I'll do what I do, but if you expect me to agree with you and consider my opinions bashing you're the one taking things personally and not looking at the objective reality of my social commentary.

Oh the parallels that come to light when the tables are turned, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!

I love http://www.classbrain.com/artteenst/publish/bill_of_rights.shtml remember to take these into account before talking schmack about America or to Americans, as it seems you think somehow if people don't agree with you we aren't entitled to them. And you're right, if I didn't break it with my 2 hands starting in 1981 when I was born, I'm not going to fix it just like I'd never ask you to fix anything you didn't do with your own two hands from the time you were born.

Oh yeah, FireTom, every time you make a generalized statement holding America/Americans to be held accountable, stereotyped, or any other wrongful statement (When all of those other countries and individual citizens need to be accountable for their involvements, like relying on the American stock market for their own economies as an example because it was their own fault for doing it) I will post this quote because I said everything perfectly and completely the first time, sorry but it is the truth and how you interpret it is on you.



Like I said I'm here strictly for American morale, not for anyone else on this topic. Anyways, do what you wish, live your life, speak your mind, and I will do the same because I believe in freedom for all.

I advise reconsideration

I advise to quit beating a dead horse, practice what you preach if you want respect or to be taken seriously, no one can have their way all the time, people in hell want ice water, and not to throw out opinions without anticipating potential opposition with some, lots, or no backing because an opinion is just an opinion...

But at the same time don't expect nor try to force my advice be taken as I value genuine responses that aren't coerced by any form of oppression because I love freedom for all people and above all integrity in communication.

what Osho said

Right, I stand by these nuggets of wisdom myself...

To address the topic: Why is there still hope for the USA?

Because good people still live there. Intelligent people still live there.

Because for every wanker you meet from there, there is someone else saying "I wish those people wouldn't travel and give us a bad name" (true story!)

Because for every Miss Teen USA and her poor school children without maps, there are people at the forefront of their field who are discovering amazing things.

Etcetera.

As long as there are people who conduct themselves with humanity and live with decency then there is hope.

Because the entire country aren't members of the Tea Party

I still have hope for America because for every stupid Juggalo kid you see in white face paint, blasting Dark Carnival and pouring nasty Faygo all over his self, there are ten normal people ever ready to jump in and kick the crap out of that 'tard.

If foreign readers see this and ask in confusion what exactly a Juggalo is, count yourself lucky. COUNT YOUR SELF FREAKIN' LUCKY!

Thanks, I'm really more of a coffee man personally.

And many others from the various subcultures who would all come together in harmony to provide the pep-rally, videography, and logistics to turn it into a real shindig! *punchline stereotypical bad joke sound effect*

I know that ain't right, but I love to crack jokes!

I never lost or needed hope for America because the average citizens voice is never heard outside of their social groups and communities, only the crazy, criminal, or prestigious make it on the news so I watch it to be informed of the extremism and never consider it the general tone they claim polls back up (I wasn't polled, don't know anyone who was polled, so I know that's B.S.!!!). I meet more people that are down to earth and personable than those I don't just doing regular everyday tasks, I think that's great. I don't like the system, but the system is only a small part of our society that we all seem to complain about which in away allows us to have an empathic bond with one another and keeps us on our toes.

We just need a bit more balance and we'll be good!

OMG me too!!! Coffee Party FTW!!!

Honestly there are several groups calling themselves Tea Parties and the rallies vary by region and their organizers, along with it's full name (i.e. Tea Party Patriots vs. Tea Party Express) most locals know this by now especially when comparing regional coverage to cable news and national coverage.

This whole thing is a trend. It's cool to hate America/Americans in the rest of the world. 99% of those people vomit out half ignorant falsehoods and love their iphones, but want desperately to cling to their programming. I for one am done with a fool's argument. It's the 21st century kidds time to work on more important things than how we can sit here and claim it's all Americas fault we've destroyed our planet and can't work together.

FireTom, please use your own thoughts and not mine. Our conversation about bigotry was in private out of politeness and respect for you, not so that you could spew more of your negativity out at anyone.

Ok guys - only because I've been addressed personally I do respond here. 2 days ago I was ready to take down each individual post and thread of mine one-by-one and delete my entire account... quite emotional reaction that would have been. Then again I remembered that HoP is not you alone...

Further I disabled PM's and request to keep all content public.

[RC] If you claim "ownership" on anything that you put out on the web then you need to put a copyright note attached. All my own content is public, creative commons or fair use and I do treat all content I find the same. Sorry if that led to disappointment but as previously explained I myself was quite disappointed by your approach myself. No hard feelings - it's a long road, as you said it yourself. [ed]"hating" America is not a trend... and if it were I wouldn't follow it... many people are simply waking up roughly and realize that their expectations in "the greatest democracy in the world" have been way too high... it's a little painful and borders in feeling deceived.

[EoN] I offer you an apology for having responded equally populist and returned your personal attacks. Thanks for being a teacher here. In the future I will call on the Mods immediately. I owe you no justification on how I finance my lifestyle, what I do on my holidays or what I form my opinions on. I have the same right as you to publish them, without having suffering personal reprisals from anyone and for what political motif ever.

[Rouge] The problem is that more Americans travel today, spend 2 days in Bangkok, a week in Patthaya, Phuket or PhaNgan, 3 days in Siem Rreap, 2 days in Kuala Lumpur and might truly believe that they have seen (and understood) S/E Asia. Not many realize that you have to spend considerable time to get a grasp on a culture. Some seem even to believe that Hitler is still alive.

[all] My problem is that indeed I have lost hope in the US because for every lovely person I do meet 5 or more wankers. Even here on the board I guess the last American who held opposing views and was still able to keep a discussion to facts over a lengthy period has been Patriarch... (and that's a long time ago).

Fact is that the US is one of (if not) THE biggest consumer(s) on the planet and as such creating a tremendous amount of suffering on the planet in regards of environmental impact and working conditions. I do observe some hardships first hand when traveling 3rd world countries or "emerging economies".

It might be painful to wake up from a sweet dream, but it might serve the greater good. But killing the messenger will not make the facts go away.

Please note that I DO NOT hold any individual American accountable for deeds committed not by themselves but their government, corporate management or military. I do raise awareness and that might be called "negative" - but it is honest at least.

I do challenge EVERYBODY here on this board to either prove that I post false allegations or act contrary to HoP posting guidelines (especially in regards to: "Is it the truth?") and to stick to HoP posting guidelines (especially in regards to: "Is it fair to all concerned?").

Thank you for showing me (once again) that fighting the devil by becoming the devil is unskillful and doesn't lead anywhere.

If you can't keep it up without personal attacks, just because it's the way you put it or because you have no arguments - be informed that from now on I will call on the mods immediately - and I do advise you to do the same... This is not about "thick skin" this is about "trolling".

I might create resentment by how I put things... but this resentment is YOUR personal decision and has little to do with me. I may simply act as the screen you project your own negativity on. I have created other, much more positive threads... most of them lying dormant in the archives. Why do you (continue to) post here and throw your negativity on me? only because I note some of the negative aspects of your country, government or culture...

If this already is "blasphemous" then I must say that you yourself don't hold much good about your own country.

At the end of the day there might be more good things about America than I myself and others have the chance to notice.
You may/ not take this thread as an invitation to let us know.

Up to you to either shake or slap the hand offered for reconciliation from my side here on this board. As for my part it's an honest and sincere attempt. Up to you to stand up together as Americans, collectively show manners and how to deal with criticism gracefully. I consider myself having failed at this point miserably...

I completely agree. I've met may people from many nationalities who have had this view and I've had to bite my tongue (feels like to the point of bleeding!) when this has happened!

Similarly "I've been to Bucharest, I know everything about Romania!" or "I've been to Port Vila, I know everything about Vanuatu" or even worse "I love anime and Asahi, I know everything about Japan..." those people need a good smack IMHO.

But Hitler still alive? WTF, Mate?

Perhaps from all this we can safely conclude that it is probably not a good idea to bring up discussions on hot topic issues like politics or religion, especially on internet forums. If people really are passionate about their beliefs, is it really necessary to start discussions that can so easily get out of hand in just a few posts? Some people may view it as a game, but others may take it very personally, or at least construct posts which can easily be misconstrued, especially with only text.

Everybody needs to find some common ground if situations as such to be resolved. Hey FireTom, do you like toast also? I hope so. It is warm and crispy and an excellent place to put jelly.

You also have no right to judge how difficult my life is, how hard I must work, or my self worth. You don't have to justify your financial situation to me just as much as I don't have to justify my struggle to you. If you don't have to justify anything, I don't either! If you want to call in the Mods every time you see commentary about things you state to be true about yourself be my guest as I will use them in an attempt at getting a point across, but I will consider this a "terroristic" threat and I don't negotiate with anyone trying to intimidate me with threats.

That's not an apology and I'm not accepting a snide, illusion at smoothing things over sprinkled with attitude and scare tactics only a partially illiterate person with below average intelligence would confuse. I told you long ago to stop insulting my intelligence, but this takes the cake! When you learn to act in a manner in accord with being granted forgiveness like giving a sincere apology, you will get it, but that was more of a slap in the face than apology.



These are not facts, it is not fair to all concerned, and is a very slanderous statement.



I'm military, my husband is in the military active duty and I sure as hell know neither one of us had anything to do with many problems you're referring to. If you want to bash those trying to uphold the constitution you go right ahead and not one single American will ever forget that. You're blaming us for things we didn't do and that is not in accord with the guidelines.



You got nowhere because you are wrong, we are not the devil, and we did not start the "trolling". If you consider that or anything else a personal attack that is entirely on you and after this if you don't go straighten up and stop trying to be a dictator who doesn't have to follow his own rules or everyone who has any amount of common sense and decency won't waste the time we have wasted here because they will have history to make an informed decision of how you will conduct yourself.



This isn't blasphemous, it's just the most moronic bunch of B.S. I've seen displayed over a country and a society that even on a small societal scale has done nothing to you to warrant it. If you don't like America stay away from here, don't support our economy with the goods you buy, and live your life in a way where you aren't supporting/funding things you don't like as you do have the ability to do that.



I stand up as an American and say you have a long way to go for me to take this as any attempt at reconciliation and if you want me to show "manners" or deal "gracefully" you have much to learn about the conduct that earns such a response. I'm sorry, but my respect is earned and not coerced. You have no problem judging, but you have a problem with being judged? Sorry the world doesn't work like that, everything goes both ways and what goes around comes around.

I'm not shaking or slapping your hand, I'm walking away because I've lost all hope in anything being accomplished here.

BTW, here in America I'm actually considered to be a reserved and rather entertaining character because we do have thick skins and the ability to suck it up, get over it, and speak our minds uncensored. I've never had many Americans offend me more than I've been offended here, but I'm not considering running away or judging individuals who aren't involved. I feel like the first American to take a stand here on HoP and I'm very happy that I'm not easily pressured because many others are, they would just buy into the threats of Mod-ing and hide out. Well not me, not now, not ever, hopefully the international elitism/condemnation can calm down so a broader demographic range won't be scared off the forums and diversify this community of people with a common hobby.

Hmmm, than perhaps two non-Americans should listen to what they have just said and "know their rank" as we call it here? If you non-Americans believe in equality and all like you say, a fair playing field is a fair playing field am I not correct?

You two don't know American culture yet you talk like you do more so than actual Americans... Anyone else smell hypocrisy? I don't go around saying "I hate non-Americans because of what I see on TV, learned in world history, and how people on a web forum behave" because that's just ridiculous and ignorant to say.

Wise words..

You once stated that you noticed that this community used to be larger, and it was, much larger. IMO it could handle hot topic discussions at that time but sadly, this is no longer the case.

There;s forums out there that are specifically dedicated to this type of discussion, where you sign knowing it's a game and knowing what you're getting yourself into.

If HoP wants to maintain the happy skipping hippy image, it might do well to shut down SD and keep the focus on these arts. (and chat)

Stout, I must concur.

I'm a member of 4 political debate forums and I'm pretty use to the hot, hot heat only having mods being called in for inappropriate links. I've never seen anything quite like this personally and I'm more restrained here than I am anywhere, but the point of a political forum is the art of debate (which involves winning and conceding). People who aren't willing to take the heat just don't throw it out there from the start.

I did take a break from here because political debates on my other forums and activist activities within my party and other organizations is much more fruitful in terms of real advancement. Much of the content on here like repeated editing, threatening to tattle-tale, and such isn't tolerated as you know just what you got yourself into by getting involved from the get go.

I agreed with SD being a conflict of interest to the guidelines long ago, but that is not my call to make. When I see someone go into something political or heated in terms of issues, I think they know what is potentially eminent in terms of potential responses, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

In the end I agree with you and Bren both because there are certain discussions where you know this is coming a mile away (anything thing serious people feel strongly about to be exact).

Um, you do realise that my posts have actually been supporting the US??

Sorry about that, like always with text it's very hard to tell there with the analogies used. Honestly, I do much better interpreting things I hear/see when comparisons come into play. My bad!

Although for the record I'd like to just throw it out there that your comparisons were hard for me to grasp which side you were on, the analogies used for positive and negative were two vast extremes of circumstance in each one. You also said you agreed with FireTom and to my knowledge (which could be entirely incorrect that a person must spend a great deal of time anywhere to understand it which you both have not in America, hence my comment. I'm only speaking of the US because I've lived here my whole life in different parts and have traveled to almost every state, so I thought with both of your agreements on needing to spend much time to draw a conclusion perhaps nothing should be said if that is how you really feel. *shrugs*

Have you ever been over here at all and if so what part? I think how much we vary by state and region makes us hard to peg into any concise cultural stereotype as a nation at all. LOL

*emoticons are broken so, [insert expression of "so deep, but it can make me dense" right here]*

Hopefully you can see my conclusion and why I made the statement.

My agreement with Tom was about how I don't believe that people can know or understand a region or country from just visiting a very small (and usually very touristy) part of it. It's an annoying habit that I've heard from many nationalities; stressing "many nationalities" which was my original wording.

Nowhere did I claim to understand America. I simply said that I acknowledge that not everyone is like the negative stereotypes and that there are people who aren't like that at all. And because of their existence, I believe that there is "hope" - which was the original topic.
It was my way of saying "look, people need to stop focusing on the bad stuff that comes out of the US and see that there's good stuff going on as well."

AMEN!

This is what I'm saying... We don't owe each other justification for each others way of life, job, spiritual or political views... Both of us have the right to express our opinions.

So if I have an opinion about the US - would you please stop attacking me personally for it? And where did I judge you?



now I become a terrorist because I want to come back to a factual discussion rather than a tit-for-tat between the two of us and would rather use moderation than continuing to face your attacks?



That's what you're reading out of it.



FTD statistics on the actual US trade deficit

walmart watch on the production in China

Greenpeace on US climate bill

If you like to receive more, I will dig deeper.



As I said: I do neither hold you nor your husband accountable for the actions of your government, other members of the military, corporate decisions etc... Where do you find me bashing YOU for it?



- Who is "we" that you are referring to?

I don't claim to be "right" I simply state it the way it appears to me. It's an opinion... and the title of this thread is "USofA - why there is still hope". I did post links to individuals (like Brandon Neely) who I find extremely courageous and who give me hope. Institutions as "wikileak" whose members face extreme hardship uncovering confidential material, etc.



fair to all concerned and building better friendships, are you?



There is a fine red line between speaking things frank and outright insulting someone. You crossed that line a few times (IMNSHO).

In Germany (at least) we do have a culture of criticism, especially towards our government and culture... I understand that it might breed resentment if an outsider says something (that might not fully sync with our own views)... Some people might even react the way you do. I've been through some issues with other Americans before here on HoP - and this far I have always accepted and offered apologies when things got too far.

You may just be in full resentment mode because actually I have not stated anything derogatory about Americans as a whole. The story about "does Hitler still rule Germany" actually happened to one member here in this board and a personal friend who got asked this question in a student exchange program.

I have pointed out certain political and economical issues - why are you taking offense and feel personally insulted? I did post the vids of Wikileak regarding a massacre in Baghdad, Brandon Neely's reconciliation efforts with ex-Guantanamo inmates.. these are facts. Where do you find me

- condemning Americans as a whole
- offending YOU personally?

[PS: I can edit my posts for multiple reasons, without owing anyone justification. Reasons can be that a [quote] or other [] symbol has not worked properly, that I misspelled something or (upon rereading) noted that my wording could easily be misunderstood (English only second lingo)... if you're directly referring to what I have said you may use [quote] if you have the suspicion that I change my posts AFTER you responded to them...[/ed]

Oi, Tom! Bring back your PMs!


nevermind...I was a sneaky little dragon.

Rougie - I just felt quite hurt by reading a personal motion into a recent PM - when in fact I was simply reading something into this message that was not there.

My above post took me 1hr to put in writing... I just don't want to jitter behind the scenes anymore...

Who knows me knows how to get to me...



We had discussions about very hot topics here in the past... the irony is that THIS thread actually has been the one in which I wanted to come to good terms with the US...

I love toast... I bring the cream cheese, you care for the Nutella?

Oh, Jelly? can I put creamcheese as a base? Please?

First of all, I will raise my hand and admit I was the one who said that I wish a good damn percentage of the Americans that traveled wouldn't. I've seen them act like inconsiderate assholes and was fully embarrassed by it, enough to at one point get up and tell them off loud enough to be applauded by natives. I tend to travel alone or with people from other countries. I learn about the cultures and language before I go to minimize any accidental disrespect.
I can't stand the tea party and believe that any group who names it's participants "tea baggers" should automatically disban and hang their heads in shame forever.

Thank you Rougie.

Oh, and we spell the word aluminum...so we say it correctly, for how we spell it. Since I don't speak English, I speak/read/write American, it's perfectly fine.

FireTom, I don't have a whole lot of time, but I told you what you need to do to "build better friendships" (on my end) and have me accept your apologies, it would require you admitting to your transgressions and asking forgiveness for them. Pretty simple stuff. I do not see where I have crossed any line or gotten any more personal than you (prior your edits especially) and believe me anyone who has said the things you have IRL would've gotten a MUCH bigger earful.

You can't say you have a problem with the military and then say, "but not you and your husband" just other members. If you want to say you still have hope and something bad happened to you and you had to live here in America, that I would be sympathetic to at least. I'm sorry about the Hitler thing someone said, but don't think for a minute I haven't considered comparing you to a Nazi because you act like what I've learned them to be like in history to the tee! Trying to make everything look fine while enforcing your regime and oppressing anyone who opposes you, but you what it's not because you're German it's your choice to act that way. Do you know how many racial slurs I've heard in my life? Lots, but do I want to stop people from having freedom of speech? Never!

Here's the deal, I'm a very outspoken person so taking everything I say to heart is not a good idea as many would be butthurt. Understanding that everything I say is a response to an opinion and not a person is crucial like in all debates so saying I'm personally attacking you is wrong, I'm speaking out in reply to opinions that have been spoken. I don't need everyone to like me, I want to be liked for who I really am not what I'm forced to pretend to be if I am liked at all. Why? Because I'm an American! If you don't like being held accountable for your opinions guess what you need to do? I think you know the answer to that.

Why do I take offense at the actual issues you pointed out? Because I'm the one who has to deal with them every day, I'm a registered voter making me partially responsible like all of our citizens, I'm trying to make a decent life (like survive without any assistance like all people should do IMO) in a place where the difficulty has increased my entire adult life and you bitch about it and don't even have to deal with it and dare to comment on my quality of life personally? Yeah I do have a problem with that so maybe you need to look at yourself in the mirror and re-read all of my posts, then do some soul searching before replying to me again like you have done nothing wrong.

You are right that we have so much variety, even from one county to another, that we can not be stereotyped. Not truly.

I hosted a HoP Aussie here last year for a month. She was amazed that we are not as fast food based (in this area) as she thought. Themed restaurants however, are another thing. We do a lot of free activities and not everyone is pissing away money or supporting our government. It's predominantly rural, very friendly (which actually made her a bit uncomfy) and laid back.
Nothing like what news and Hollywood would have them believe.

She was surprised at the stunning amount of freshwater here, and that while I live in New York State, it takes 6+ hours and going through 2 other states for me to get to NYC.

In talking to people when I was in Aus and Europe, many don't understand how large the US is, nor how diverse.

We don't have a US culture. We have very little that when you look at it you think "OH! That's totally 'American'" We aren't as much of a melting pot as a chunky stew.
From language to food and everything in between, it changes by region and while it's part of what makes the US incredible it's also part of what makes it confusing for those who haven't really traveled here (including US citizens).

Ah, excellent, then you'll be aware of the "attack the argument, not the arguer" meme. That's not what happened here on this thread.

I can't exactly remember what was on here but I'll speculate

The wikileaks video. Easy to dismiss and anti-war propaganda. Difficult, but it can be done
Mike Prysner. Political extremist, go after his Marxism.
Brandon Neely. Tough one, but could be painted as political grandstanding motivated by guilt.

One thing you have to, and I mean have to, accept is that the US has just come out of 8 years of the Bush administration and he's generated a lot of resentment in the world. We don't have to live in or "know" America to be critical of it's actions on the international stage and anyone taking offense at those types of criticism is only trying to stifle discussion because they don't like what's being said.

8 years where the Supreme Court made a terrible decision with a recounting and fraud that happened in Florida, Al Gore won that election fair and square, but Bush got it with the help of his brother and appeals lawyers. I know this happened, I'm disgusted at Obama's job so far as well, however I know that these are very small pieces of a very big jumbled mess that very few feel a hard blow from and it speaks only of the federal infrastructure, but only the voting majority. I don't see how that isn't taken into account, you know the story right? (that was my first election and I was VERY ANGRY!!! but I pointed the finger directly at who deserved it, not the nation)

Anyway, I don't hold feelings about any nation even the ones that don't like us (North Korea, Iran, much of the Middle Eastern places) because they want to live how they want to live, I can respect that and I say leave them be. The "war on terror" concept is ridiculous because you cannot wage war on a concept, the people who did 9/11 were killed when they did it so invading a country over a rogue group is ridiculous to me let alone the fact our attackers died too.

The only place where I disagree is on the opinions/personal thing, I believe if you state an opinion you are to be held accountable for stating it and there is no reason to have an issue with a response to you as a person who stated the opinion. Like being read miranda rights "you have the right to remain silent, what you say can and will be used against you in a court of law" one understands when they open their mouth they will be held accountable for what comes out of it. I'm willing to be held accountable for what I say, plus I'm more than happy to do it. Does that make any sense?

I have only criticized what has been thrown out on the table, is that wrong? I've faced much worse than this FTF when I was in elementary school where literally name calling is going on so I don't understand why people get so upset when being held accountable for what they say in a format where restraint and decency are in action. I'm sorry I don't understand how people can think they have a right to criticize something, yet not be criticized themselves.

You see how it's paradoxical to me?

I've been fortunate to live everywhere from MD, No. VA, to Hawaii (Oahu) and have traveled for a few years when I was a flight attendant. Sometimes I cross state lines and I might as well have walked into another country, which is one of the things I absolutely love! Now I'm in DE and hoping my next duty station will be in like CO, TX, or CA because I'd love to try out a new climate and culture within the US. It can be confusing because my life in Delaware where I primarily go to Annapolis/Baltimore, MD, Washington D.C., or Philadelphia, PA to have fun would be different than NY State (Syracuse is beautiful and Albany was fun, I would do many layovers all over the state which were anything but the NYC image way back) which is very different from San Fransisco and the list goes on...

I have run into many domestically who are baffled when traveling to another state, but when many of our states are larger than European countries it must be hard to keep track of 50! I love it, but that is quite interesting to hear that story because most foreign people I meet (from Asia, South America, and the rest of North America) don't have the responses I've been seeing here with Europeans and Aussies.

Yes, that's true, but the point is he made some very unpopular decisions as far as the rest of the world is concerned and IMO it's not unreasonable for the rest of the world to voice those criticisms. It's when individual Americans start taking those criticisms personally, that problems like the ones that developed in this thread happen.

I've never understood this anti-corporate schtick that gets leveled primarily at American corporations. Seems to me that the best tactic to bring down the corporate machine is to simply not buy their goods. Sure, your life may suck doing without things like airplanes and computers but such is the price of actually living an ideological stance.

it's the same with Canada. We're famous for what/ Being polite? Back bacon( WTF?), saying "Eh"?, Maple syrup? The seal hunt? The tar sands?.

With the exception of the dirty oil, all that Canadiana happens so far away from where I live I could probably be in Los Angeles before I could get up close and personal with any of the above. ( the Eh thing is an eastern Canada thing, I'd never even heard of the concept until Bob and Doug McKenzie released that record in 1982.

Aw crap, now I have "take off' stuck in my head.

Coo roo coo coo coo coo coo coo

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Loves this guy!

Yeah me too! I hope Stout doesn't think I'm too difficult as primarily I'm just confused and looking for clarification on philosophical matters.

I love our neighbors up north, I also think Degrassi is a wonderful gift to the American youth.

Yes, which is why I don't like the US because a trip there will mean picking favourites among my friends!

I always knew the US was huge, but it wasn't until I actually sat down with a map to find out where everyone was that I went "I can't visit soandso cos then whatshername will miss out! Oh, and then whatsisface who came to visit me so I should return the favour is too far away...and then where do I fit in my sight-seeing??? well that!!!!"

And then Pele told me of the awesome festival near her place...so she BEATS YOU ALL!!!!

I have too. I've been to/spent much time in/lived in 43 of the states (soon to be more). I've also been to Australia, NZ, Europe, Mexico and across Canada.

Everyone has broad sweeping notions of everyone else. No one is immune thanks to media. From the North to the South and East to West here in the US to international visitors. It's one of the things I love most about traveling~ the learning and sharing. Yet we can't blame people for having these media fed notions. They are hammered in. We can blame them for believing it and not doing research into all sides of it. For not keeping an open mind to other views of the situations, of which there are always many.

This is actually my problem with this thread. There seems to be a lot of talk and very little listening, so to speak, as defensive guards have gone up and people are vying for the final word.

However, the Aussies in this thread have not been bad at all. Rougie is well traveled, well versed and honestly didn't deserve the lashing you gave her because of these types of generalizations. And no, your apology didn't read like one to my American eyes. You want people to be taken as individuals and not looked at by stereotypes or lumped together, and yet you are doing *just that* here.

And yes, Central New York and Western New York are lovely. It's where I'm from.

Stout, yes, here in East Canada (I live on the border) they say "Eh" but when I was in Vancouver people said "Hey" in the same punctuative manner...and my friends didn't even notice it until I pointed it out. I laughed so hard at that! And you forgot Mounties and drinking nothing but beer
Canada does have friendly, wonderful people. It has AMAZING wilderness, extremely diverse cities (I profess a love of NewFoundland and Vancouver above all...so far ), and yet it has the chunky stew effect like the US. More people should indulge in a visit there, for so many reasons. Though I feel that way about travel in general.
Do you think that the Olympics perhaps changed the perceptions or made them worse?

Pele, ma'am, I meant in general not this thread. LOL I think Asia (South Korea, Vietnam, Japan, and China mainly),North and South America are vastly different in their views of the US compared to Europe and the other European Colonies abroad as well based on experience from real life encounters along with various "interwebz" sources.

Honestly I laugh after almost every sentence I speak IRL and was only trying to clear up with Rouge why I made that assumption to begin with because she asked, sorry if I'm not too good at making sense in the typing realm. I honestly was and am sorry about that, I can with certainty tell you if I were speaking everything I type it would sound VERY different.

Do y'all want me clicking the keys as fast and proficient as I can talk? I think I'd need a trainer!

Thus far my travels have taken me across the US, to Mexico, Canada, and Puerto Rico along with 4 of the Hawaiian Islands (but I've only lived on Oahu for a few years way back, my mom lives on Maui and I've been to The Big Island and Kauai yay for hopping!). I've come across many good, friendly people and a few pieces of work here and there, but the biggest factor I've seen in the ratio is how much of a commercial sector are you in and how is the daily grind for the locals in that part of a town or city.

I think this holds true to America as well, I'm an equal distance literally to Baltimore, D.C., or Philly and I generally go to Baltimore because the people are the most chill and down to earth out of my 3 choices. I think it has something to with it being the smallest of the three, along with the most freedom and best cost of living as well. Taking that into account, I wouldn't trade any difficulty in the daily grind that would cost me my freedom granted to me constitutionally (that I'm active in trying to extend to the founding fathers intentions, not what I've dealt with my whole life) to think of having anything more restrictive in terms of liberty is quite honestly frightening to me.

Considering the Liberals and Conservatives (current definitions in the USA, not dictionary ones) are two ends of the same evil in my eyes and both severely flawed in their own ways I understand anyone from anywhere not liking them too much, but to say that it isn't a gameface or a method to keep them in power just to have a paycheck coming in is a fact that I find pretty hard to not even think about. Not sure how you or anyone else may feel about that or if they think about it, but that is why I posted that music video because I remember the days when I was a sellout just to keep a job or have some kind of lucrative benefit. Those days are gone and I faced many a hardship in that transition, but I'm pretty sure it's a part of life that exists universally if people really look good and hard at everything around them.

*is now listening*

I subscribe to that (myself)



I married in Cayucos/ CA, spent some weeks honeymoon traveling in Utah, Nevada and California. I been in L.A. during the Rodney King riots and lived there for a few months during a later period, making jewelry on the boardwalk in Venice/ CA. Traveled from L.A. via Quartzsite to Tucson for the gemshows, spent time in North Carolina and lived a few weeks in Manhattan. List of cities visited: Boston, Detroit, New York (city and upstate), Miami, Tucson, Phoenix, Alta, Park City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego... None of that makes me an expert on the US. I said that many times. I did not - repeat for slow readers - I did not claim to be an expert on the US (culture or citizens)...

Further I did NOT aim to insult any American for being an American. If you're taking offense then this is YOUR choice - not my intent... See you said you did consider me a Nazi (and gracefully circumnavigate around it pc by making all this comparisons). No offense taken here because nothing could be further from the truth.

Of all the issues I ever had here on this board, 95% have been with Americans. And of that 90% has been because of me criticizing politics or regulations in that country... MG there is something about criticism that you seem not to understand or being able to digest.

Following up on what Stout noted: If you disagree with my arguments, attack the argument. If you disagree with how I verbalize it, tell me in the same way you like me to respond to you at another stage.

I remember you starting to attack Rouge personally in another thread and I tried to step in to moderate it. I did that politely, not saying anything in polemic terms. I demand no respect from you for anything - but the basic respect every (human) being deserves from another... I've noted that people tend to be much more friendly IRL than they are online... I'm no exception... IRL I would have just walked away... trust me: IRL it would not remotely have gotten this far

How come that you (as a registered voter and wed to a military personnel) take responsibility for all your government frecks up? Do you take responsibility for this massacre of civilians in Baghdad (wikileak), the superiors that try to hush it up? You take responsibility for this GI getting filmed mocking Iraqi civilians/ let children run behind the truck? Where do you draw the line between what other people commit and your responsibility starts? You take responsibility for having the death penalty? For every dude going on a killing spree or school shooting? IF so (which I doubt at this point) - HOW?

For me it's a very strange concept trying to make up for every human being on the planet. But maybe you simply enjoy bashing others for diverging political views (online). Not sadistic, republicanistic, narcisstic or any of that - simply because you're who you are and you spend the time you like.

Most of us had at some stage issues with another.. but this is the main positive aspect of this (diverse) community: that we're able to set it aside and (worst case) act after "the porcupine principle for cold weather" (not too close to each other - but close enough)...

I'm not begging forgiveness from anyone, young lady... you give it or you don't.

^^^



I never called you a Nazi even though it is a common slang word in America for anyone who is just stuck on being an enforcer and pushes hard for people to submit to them. It has nothing to do with being German and it's these misunderstandings and assumptions people make about when I try to express things through text because I don't have my body language, facial expressions, and lack of censorship to accurately portray myself on this forum. The reason I don't use words like Nazi on here is because of the international sensitivity possible when I mean no such context (like when I jokingly call feminist friends "femi-nazis" during one of their tirades).

This is why I'm stepping out now, if you want to drag another thread into this thread and Pele wants to tell me I have given a tongue lashing (both accusations are unfair and have greatly gotten under my skin now that I've had time to sleep on it and I haven't even come close in the history of this forum of giving ANYONE a piece of my mind) you can keep thinking whatever you want about me, but as a person who has been oppressed, abused, and victimized severely (physically and mentally) in the past I'm not tolerating such manipulation or scapegoating when I'm not even coming close to doing these things I'm being accused of. I've worked long and hard to want to hang in there and keep moving forward, people like you are never dragging me down again. Final.

It's clear how things work around here and it's anything but fair and balanced. FireTom, you aren't bending so I'm not bending, I'm not asking you to beg but I will not condone your ethics on this matter. Pele, you wanted to read into something and give someone praise just to try and make me feel bad after tossing false accusations, well we all have our opinions and you should remember what happens when a teacher does that with the teacher's pet it only breeds resentment that is misplaced. It speaks volumes that nothing I can say would even make a difference here so seriously I'm done with this thread, I hope none of you have to deal with hard things like literally fighting for your own personal survival and freedom because I do not know what you would do considering how you've handled/reacted to internet drama.

It is what it is, re-read every one of my posts and I dare you to try to read it in a different personality than you previously read, because this is the first time you've gotten the persona you imagined typing this. Peace out!

See EoN, I offered you a sincere apology...



I tried to give an opportunity for you and others to post positivity on the US and made a start myself with showing how people stand up for themselves and their country, trying to "right the wrong".



Thanks for showing me one more time that my wording and my topics can breed resentment and dearly hurt people. I'm trying to find skillful means - so far I obviously failed.

I got an opinion, I post it
a) someone agrees... end of this line
b) someone opposes it. I say "fine" and back my opinion with 'facts' or other arguments. I (often) post links to these 'facts'...
aa) someone agrees... end of this line
bb) someone still disagrees and...
aaa) posts (links to) 'facts' that back up her/ his opposing argument
bbb) says "I can't base it on facts, but to me it doesn't feel like that"... all fine with me
ccc) tells me that all I'm saying is moronic bs without any backing... say "huh?"

If you got the impression that Pele or any other mod would favor ME over you or any other member of this board then I really have to disappoint you. This is not about sympathy bonus at all.

I don't want to beat a dead horse any further [/]

This thread is completely derailed - it feels to me

What really continues to give ME hope in America is that I repeatedly watch videos originating there, which have such a beautiful message... this and the ability to boil entire books down (in)to a single paragraph mesmerizes me again and again...

So, I am sorry if it offends anyone that I am bringing up an old topic that has obviously caused multiple people a lot of frustration and personal pain but as I am an American I find the topic of why there is still hope for America interesting to say the least.

Do I really feel like America will last through the ages? No. Not at all. We will be our own downfall. Rome expanded too far to be able to control its own populace. America will burn out in its own time as well. It is inevitable. Just as the Empire of England eventually fractured to where its own influence barely travels beyond its own shores America will fracture and splinter just like all regimes that grow too big for their britches (to use a phrase so many mothers have used before).

However why will America last for many years to come? For starters we are a melting pot and always have been. It is our diversity that makes us into survivors. While other nations have started seeing an influx of immigration, none of what they have can ever compare to what the US has had since its "discovery" and independence.

Americans are builders. While early in American history the building was done not only by slaves but also people abused and treated barely better than slaves the greatest parts of our country and our cities were not built by slaves but by brave and industrious men and women. While the world may once again (as they did before WWII) see us as fat playboys who have no work ethic of our own; I believe that (though there is a lot of truth in that) the populace of the US will wake up when the time is right and we will show the world that we still posses the spirit that built this country from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

Part of our weakness and part of our strength is that Americans are fighters. Regardless of what you may think of the current wars and conflicts waging around the world there is no way of denying that Americans are fighters. Our military is the best equipped and best trained in the world. Sure the SAS and other elite groups are potent and powerful organizations but they are not the back bone of their respective country's military. The US military can be beat. I hate to think of the army that could do it but no military is unstoppable. But that isn't all... Americans would fight to the death to protect their country. That is why I believe that no country could every truly invade and conquer America. The civilian population is its own army. I also feel that this is a weakness in its own right. We may one day regret our 5th amendment rights.

Though America may be losing its respect for life, particularly life within the womb, and those at the end of their lives... make no mistake about it when people stop caring about the well being and the rights of the unborn, the well being and the rights of the old and infirm will be the next to go out the window; abortion and euthanasia are two sides of the same coin... we are still champions (at least in our own land) of the rights of those who cannot afford to or manage to defend themselves and their own rights. While corporations may trounce the rights of those overseas and honestly try to do the same in the US the people do not take these actions lying down. Many both secular and religious organizations speak out against the actions of the few and demand social justice both here and abroad.

Americans are leaders in social reform. While yes the slave trade in America was once a popular thing it was America whose desegregation through peaceful means paved the way for Apartheid in South Africa. Maybe not physically but it was at the very least an inspiration. Women the world over have become better treated and are getting closer to becoming equals with men because of the changes that have come out of America. Yes there are still many “glass ceilings” but there are far fewer than would or could be. Child labor laws did not exist before American law makers created them. Or if they did were hardly enforced. Yes there are American companies that do things that are corrupt and unethical if not downright abominable in other countries and they deserve to be punished for their actions, I will not deny that. However it is the social reform stemming from America that even gives those children over seas a chance at getting out of the sweat shops permanently.

America is not what the media portrays it to be. It does not matter if you listen to the BBC or Fox News, they cannot capture the true essence of America nor can the even hope to capture the true essence of Americans. It is still the greatest nation by far because of what I have written and more, much more. What the media sees is only what sells. No media corporation does anything but make profit for its shareholders and owners. The stories that are reported are done so based on greed and on the bottom line of what sells. So all the world sees is the idiocy of the celebrities and the antics of famous. The crimes of corrupt and evil at heart are also what are shown to the world and that is a travesty. But when love is shown instead of hatred and violence it is overlooked. Sure there may be a 30 second spot on the local news and even something on ‘Good Morning America’ but it really doesn’t get the same amount of air time as the guy who goes out and murders a bunch of kids at an Amish school. America is so much more than what the media portrays it to be.

Our school systems need work, my own Father who teaches high school students talks about how hard it is and how hard it has become since the “No Child Left Behind Act” came to be, but they are not unmanageable. The biggest problem is not funding or a lack of well trained teachers, but a lack of parental control over the students. A teacher cannot make a child do their homework, or study for tests. Our children are not stupid, what they are, is unfocused. When America refocuses our youth and projects their energy into something positive the world will see a great change. Sadly, Thomas Jefferson was more than correct when he said “The philosophy of the classroom in one generation will be the philosophy of the courtroom in the next.” If the philosophy of our students is “I don’t care” then when my grandchildren are grown then maybe that will be the philosophy of the government. That is, unless something changes.

There is still hope for America because change can still happen. We do need to return to our roots and I do not mean that politically or religiously. Though neither one of those things would be bad, at least not in my opinion, but what I mean is that we as Americans in order effect change must once again get in touch with our ancestors who built the sky scrapers and roads that span the country, over and through mountains, across deserts and rivers. We must stop looking for the easy job that pays well and take the job that is hard labor, and pays little in money but pays greatly in true satisfaction. There is still hope for America because I am not the only person who feels this way. There are more. We may not all say exactly the same thing, but we still feel the need for change. We still feel the need to return to the way things were, more so in action and attitude than in actuality.

There is still much great hope for America and for the world. I cannot wait to see the future not only of my country but of the world. America has once again become a sleeping giant and when it wakes up and realizes that its decadence is costing it dearly the change will shake the very foundations of the world.

No one is offended by this Heed. But you will be eaten alive for all of what you just said

I hope they use Heinz Ketchup to flavor me

ROTFL! You must have gone far back to read Bren's post. Did you read the revocation, that was not authored by John Cleese but by some ingno that didn't know that at the end of the US civil war 10,000 words were added to the Oxford by just one American man? I love the crap some hypocrites spew.

Heed - I partly agree/disagree with what you said.

My personal hope are based on individuals. People who stand and speak up for their beliefs and managed to change current state of affairs.

I really hope America will last - because the greatest thing a parent (Europe) could see is to see their child finally grow up and accomplish something great (promotion of world peace by peaceful means)

The question is whether this world is still in need of fighters, or rather people who are able to make peace.

I would personally appreciate to see America growing as much respect for those lives who already are on this planet as they seem to have for the queue. imo a mothers body is her own to govern and as my dad is currently in a care unit of a retirement home, I'd rather see him dying gracefully (as he himself would choose it) than continue his suffering. Euthanasia is not in opposition of compassion - I see it as part of it.

I can't see social reforms as Americas strength. The abolition of slavery was a brave act of humanity - kudos to the US. The revolt against GB and democracy installed was an inspiration to Europe at this time too. No question. That apartheid was kept in the US until the '70 is something that still puzzles me. The social reforms Obama is tying to install now were met with intense resistance... there still is something within the society that needs to learn.

Definitely the media can't grasp the essence of a society and promote it accurately - no worries it also fails in dragging it down. For me it's always been individuals and their communication to the world that did/not make the difference. I'd like to see more Americans travel the rest of the world without the attitude that their country is the greatest nation of all, because that actually blinds them from truly understanding what this "rest of the world" is really about.

To me these repetitive short displays of love, bravery, compassion and brilliant intellectuals is what preserves my hopes. I might not agree with everything said (and the way it is said) but there is an entire cosmos that sparkles and it's not coming from energy saving bulbs.

FireTom I agree with you to an extent. Yes Individual people with vision and leadership are needed, but they must be backed by people willing to follow. There is nothing wrong with following good leadership.

As far as the desegregation of America goes, the person may be quick to change but people are not. The majority of Europe still has (in part) a class system with Aristocracies, while their lines may not be drawn on racial boundaries, the effect can be much the same. Those with the wisdom and ability to lead are not given the chance based on some skewed idea of family line, or location of birth. So yes it is very sad that America did not see real change for racial desegregation until the 60's but the fact that the change happened is an amazing thing in its own right. Europe has some catching up to do. I can't wait for the first black King of England

My stance on abortion and yours differ, I'm not going to debate it with you. But it is a fact that abortion and (and I'm sorry for not making this more clear in my original post) active euthanasia (AKA Grand-ma is just too old and too expensive we'll just stop the machines that keep her fed and she'll just starve to death) are linked. As abortion becomes more and more socially acceptable, the other will too. Euthanasia can in fact be compassionate, however, that is not the kind of euthanasia that I meant, I apologize for my unclarity.

Yes American tourists can be morons. However, I wish everybody in every country had the attitude that their country is the greatest country in the world. Pride, though a dangerous thing in too great of quantity, can be electrifying and cause the change to spark the imaginations of future generations.

but wasn't there some dispute in the US about abolishin slavery?

I side you that ol' Europe still has a lot of work to do, a lotta lot... I'm just not sure where you're going with "not getting a chance due to family line or location of birth"...

One black President doesn't make the all change, Sir. Were not all other American Presidents white anglo saxon protestants? You have no Hearst's, Guggenheimers, Morgan's, Kennedy's, Brady's or Rockefellers?

But let's not go too far this lane, kick back and wait for a black King of England being crowned by a black Pope, receiving congratulations by a President of the US who was born outside NA...

I'm considering opening a thread on euthanasia and abortion - maybe it would make two good threads - if not already in existence. Maybe you would like to go ahead?

I've worked in retirement homes and schools for the physically/ mentally/ multiple handicapped... The respect of life should be for the living, then for the dying and then for those not born yet. It's best accomplished by generating circumstances in which a life is still worth living and having a child doesn't mean poverty for the parents. It's accomplished by providing equal chances, regardless of color or social background.

Totally side you on the school issue. GOOD education should be available for everyone, free of charge.

I'd wish we'd go beyond borders and finally see that this is the greatest planet - that would be a goal worth striving for... but step by step we walk a thousand mile road

Thanks for joining the discussion. Your posts have been some of the most refreshing in a long time (at least for me). I don't mind patriotism - as long as it's not blind.

The black president/queen thing was a joke. No JFK was Catholic, Thomas Jefferson was his own form of Christianity... just check out his "bible". We've had quite a few deists as well. And whatever religion Obama really is. That sounds really judgmental I know and I don't mean it to be but honestly I don't know what he holds to and what he doesn't.

Honestly a black Pope probably isn't that far off, there are a fair amount of black cardinals.

The problem with a debate on Abortion and Euthanasia is that each of us has a different base for morality. Even among those who have the same origins for their sense of morality there is debate among these two issues. So without a unified stance on morality the debate would be pointless. The stances I would take and the reasons behind them would be irreconcilable to those who did not share my basis for morality. So I am unsure if I would weigh in on those debates or not. It would depend on people's attitudes and if they are really willing to listen to what I had to say or if they will just judge my words as unworthy of attention simply because of my basis of morality.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-lights-are-going-out-for-free-speech-on-the-internet.html

Hope?

Okay if Obama messes up my gaming for four months I'm going to be very not happy!