US Gun laws are "License to murder"

If you have the feeling I'm "grasping on straws" then maybe I've not put it in a coding that you comprehend, right?

Problem is that felons seem to have quite a good access to firearms and ONE reason for this are 2nd hand sales without proper background check and the amount of firearms that are freely available in the US today.

But honestly I have no idea what you're referring to... maybe check your target before aiming?

However I'm just punching in "gun accident" and this is what the search returns with(in USA, I just post a few...)













0.2 per 100.000 pop. still adds up to 2.800 kills of innocent people per annum - even according to the NRA. No matter whether it's on an "all-time low"... this is only about the fatalities due to the accidental discharge... not speaking of the "intended discharge" at all here...

faith, there was a good discussion about what I said to Lurch on SBS world News Australia, last night 12 June 2009, but I could not find the transcript.

Perhaps you could actually read the links I’ve posted about FBI warnings on white supremacy and increases sales of assault weapons like AR 15s etc.

“…Congressional debates about immigration and gun control also make extremist groups suspicious and give them a rallying cry, the report says.
"It is unclear if either bill will be passed into law; nonetheless, a correlation may exist between the potential passage of gun control legislation and increased hoarding of ammunition, weapons stockpiling, and paramilitary training activities among rightwing extremists," the report said. The FBI was quoted Monday as saying that, since November, more than 7 million people have applied for criminal background checks in order to buy weapons. The Homeland Security report added: "Over the past five years, various rightwing extremists, including militias and white supremacists, have adopted the immigration issue as a call to action, rallying point, and recruiting tool..." That was April 2009.

Hi faith, I wasn’t happy with my previous response, so I’m hoping this, plus my previous post will help answer your questions.



As to the people, they were on blogs and social networking sites. I think the reaction to this shooting, and hate crimes in particular has tipped the scales against gun violence in America, unlike other massacres. Last night I saw thousands of people visiting the museum in protest over this hate crime on SBS World New Australia June 13. This is the original report Museum-shooter-faces-death-penalty, June 12 and there has been many news stories like Right-wing backlash against Obama. I think Obama will now be able to act , and there will be tightening of gun laws back to at least the Clinton laws.



I think that is answered in the FBI report, link above.



The definition of assault weapons is outlined in the Clinton weapons ban, and has been linked a number of times already. But it’s the “Guns are not the problem” or “guns don’t kill people” statements that got me thinking.

Now this is a bit “tongue-in-cheek” so I hope you and others take it in that light. Now, I was thinking what if it were posssible, and we could actually do something so guns did not kill people? Then I had a “lightbulb” moment, well three actually

Deactivate guns. One way to solve the gun violence problem would be if people got their guns deactivated, so they could not harm people any more. The incentive for this could be a i-pod or something useful. It’s a classic “win-win” situation. People get to keep their beloved guns, get a i-pod and guns don’t result in death of innocent people like the three year old girl shooting her two year old brother

Pink camo gear. Make hunters wear pink camo gear as requirement for getting a hunting licence and hunting. This would mean hunters like Dick Cheney would be less likely to shoot people, and it would give animals a chance against semi-automatics, laser sights, night vision scopes, what ever etc.

Rambo day. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with people taking concealed weapons into places of worship, or any other place for that matter. So what about a day when all the people carrying concealed weapons wear a pink a Rambo head band so we can see whose packing? Pink Rambo head band could be sold for charity, and the money given to worthy cause like protecting kids from gun violence.

That’s it, cheers

Stone, guess they're busy stockpiling for 2012



full article

That's only one point, where the US gun problem fowls over its borders... get your act together guys

That’s interesting Fire Tom. The last I heard about this crisis was Hillary Clinton was about to bring in the National Guard. The other part of this story is that assault weapons are also being sold to drug gangs in Canada. It seems to me that since Bush let the assault weapons ban slip there has been huge influx in the sales of assault weapons to drug gangs in both Mexico and Canada. According to local news reports, six hundred gun shops were set up along the Mexican boarder after the assault weapon ban was lifted. It would seem to me that escalating violence vindicated Bill Clinton’s original assault weapon ban, and it should be reinstated. However, this suggestion was met with the usual cries of what problem? We are not responsible. Don’t stop our fun.

yea, some rednecks are not very pro-Mexican are they?

It's "don't stop our fun" and "don't stop our profits"!

I'm only focussing on gun accidents in the US for the sake of the topic, gee... if I'd be to extend that to worldwide...

Fire Tom, as my old Gran used to say "there is no such thing as an accident".

Lock-and-Load

7 teens shot at Detroit bus stop: report



So the world keeps asking, when is America going to do something about it's gun violence problem?

http://www.ci.mil.wi.us/6month2009crimereducton

lest the dour people make readers think the world is all doom and gloom. crime has gone down in Milwaukee again

You keep asking, lot's of people in this world don't have a problem with it.

It is sad that some deranged individuals decide to attack others for what appears to be no reason, it is also sad that the weapons they chose were guns -- giving more anti-gun people "ammunition" in their fight to stop something that isn't really a problem. Things like this happen, I wish the news would quit bringing up every instance to shock and awe the population, which is more than 6 billion now... So those people shot were what? I will tell you what, one in a billion. Can you ban people from owning knives because too many people are getting stabbed to death? Keep your knife sharpener at the target range? Come on.

Hi faith, good work.



Lot's, of Americans you mean.

Things like that happen in America because people think the second amendment gives them the right to do what they want, and they can solve all their problems by purchasing a firearm. Americans also associate guns with masculinity, an association that is not lost by members of the NRA who use the second amendment and jingoism to market assault weapons.

Trying to stop the media from telling the truth, so you can sweep your dirty little gun violence problems under the carpet, will not reduce American gun violence. The people who get shot are “human beings”, look it up. If that one human being in a billion that got shot, was family or a friend, then I think you might have a more sympathetic reaction.

You assume too much, and I have had plenty of people in my life die due to violence, and violence is just what you're talking about, regardless of the weapon. I am not saying the media should stop reporting things, I am saying that before the media came about to reach every corner of the earth these things still happened, it's just that now they can get people like you guys up in a tizzy. It also gives us pro gun people a good chuckle at your absurd reasoning. In the end we have guns, I think anyone that has a problem with that should come get them from us.

The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it away. - Thomas Jefferson. They are our rules, if you live here and don't like them: Leave. If you don't live here: Don't come, you might get shot.



Assuming that's what I mean, if Americans want there guns, what business do you have to whine about it? I am sure if I looked hard enough at your laws, I could find one that endangers everyone, but do I really care? Sure I love you for the people you are, but I am not so ignorant as to think I have the right to tell you how to live your lives, or how your laws should be. What right do you have to tell me I can't bear arms? The cause for Humanity? I bet you could buy enough medical care for impoverished 3rd world children to far surpass the lives you hear about being lost in "tragic shootings." In fact I'd bet on it.

But assuming I mean what I wrote and not your twisted perception and denial (which you seem to carry with you in every response: redirection here, smuge the truth there, never answer direct questions) I mean a lot of the world doesn't have a problem with it.

Also, the 90% of guns coming from Mexico having origins in the US is a bunch of garbage for the people that refuse to think logically. In truth, the guns that are "recovered" from Mexico and sent to the US for analysis are guns that have a reason to be sent back here, ie they were attributed to America. The 90% gun statistic is true for the -17%- of guns that are sent here after recovery. Why would Mexico just send every gun they find over to America? Does that really make sense to you (well knowing you I suppose it does, but try to think real hard about it)? Do you really think Mexico reports to us? The truth is, many more of the weapons are from Russia, and other areas of South America. So to make it clear: 90% of the 17% of guns sent to us are from here, and FYI, they are not all "scary assault rifles." Perhaps you should follow up on what you write before spouting it as gospel in your war to make a peaceful planet that overgrows it's resources.

It’s true, I assumed sympathy and compassion. What you are saying about the media is that it was ok to shoot people before the media started telling people what was actually going on in America.



Always with the threats of violence and shooting people. Which just backs up my earlier suggestions that a certain sections of America turn to their guns because they have failed to develop non-violent communication skills. Thomas Jefferson’s comments on the second amendment were written in the background of the war of independence, which ended over 250 years ago. However, I would not be the first to suggest that some Americans are trapped in a time warp, and still think they are fighting the British. By the way, what ever happened to the bit about belonging to a “well regulated militia”? I don’t think Thomas Jefferson ever envisaged out of control kids running around with assault weapons.

Here are the words of another President:



Good advice.



We matured as a country when we decided to remove surplus guns from the community. We did that in an effort to reduce gun violence. Obviously, you like violence, and living in a violent country. The use of violence was how America tried to solve all it's problems, which mostly failed. The invasion of Iraq is testament to that. Anyhow, now finally America has great leadership, and there will be an end to violent solutions and violent gun laws.



The assault weapons going into Mexico and Canada are sourced from America. The number of gun shops along the boarder is testament to that, as are a number of TV news repots and documentaries. As to "scary” assault rifles. I don’t think they are scary, as much as stupid. Letting the civilian population have access to assault weapons that are purposely designed to kill human beings is just plain stupid. The "scary" label is just advertising. According to gun shop owners, people are much more likely to purchase a “scary” assault rifle instead of plain old hunting rifle, because apparently it boosts their ego and other parts.

Oh I guess I'll jump in to doppelGanger's defense



I don't think America has a *gun* violence problem. We have a violence problem, the same as the rest of the world. The gun is just the tool. Do you really think the violence is caused by the presence of the tool? And if so, should we really be treating it by removing said tool? Especially when guns have just as much potential to stop/end a crime and save a life.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best solution would be one where no one is hurt or dies. Second best solution would be if the criminal was the one to be hurt or killed. I would much rather have an armed populous willing to defend themselves that a population of sheep looking towards their nanny state government to protect them from themselves. I don't think that's unreasonable, and I think they should be allowed access to the tools that would allow them protection.



Really? Cause all I'm seeing is you assuming thats what American's think and feel. A large majority of firearm marketing campaigns right now are marketing towards females, and they have *always* been about self defense, not to promote vigilantism. If you look at the gun community, the *actual* gun community, not the Hollywood portrayal, or the skewed media portrayal, they are responsible, reasonable people. Not psycho gun nuts hellbent on shooting anyone that sets foot on their lawn.

You seem to think that because someone has a gun on their hip, they are going to become more confrontational, and more violent. But if you actually look at the concealed carry communities, the opposite is plainly obvious.



I can't speak for doppel, but I don't think that what he was trying to say at all. Our media is far from 'fair and balanced' and they report on crimes and violence constantly. In a way they are glorifying it, whether they mean to or not. The fact that they give it so much exposure numbs the population to it's true significance, and makes it seem far more commonplace than it really is.

The few times guns are used by the good guys, for good reason, the 'good' guys are routinely vilified while the criminal is victimized. "He was only a teenager" "The gun was a toy" "The police shouldn't have shot the crazy man with a knife running towards them".



You mean the number of gun shops in states that pro-gun laws and populations that happen to be along the borders? You can't buy a gun if you don't live in the state, let alone in the country. So unless all of those gun shops are crooked (which I doubt) your stats mean nothing.

You keep going back to 'assault weapons'. But I still say you're not looking at it correctly. You are judging a gun by it's cosmetics, it's history, and its looks and not on it's function, and dare I say deadliness. The VAST majority of so called "assault" weapons function exactly the same as any other semi automatic gun, and are usually in a smaller caliber. A hunting rifle could take you out far faster, and from further away, but you don't seem worried about those. You are indeed scared of them, and trying to play macho and you're not, "they're just stupid" isn't fooling anyone. You don't understand guns, or gun culture, and you are threatened by it, so you want it to go away.

That's how I see it anyways..

You are proving my point more than you know, and with Lurch having said what he said, it reaffirms what I said previously about you changing your responses, driving the point away from the ones we try to make, and avoiding the things you don't want to talk about. I went through everything posted here since I last posted anything, and saw a very recognizable pattern of many people talking openly with non-violent communication skills, yet you refusing to listen to any rationality at all. Even Lurch agreed with some of the things you said, and like I said before, Lurch knew exactly what I meant (and it was not hard because it's what I wrote) while you interpreted it in a ridiculous self serving way. I feel it is you my friend who has lost his communication skills, and let's get real: People that won't be rational and logical can not be spoken to, so in the end it comes down to: Come get them or be quiet, because there is no use talking with you about it.

Your comments about independence and a time warp are so misguided I won't even get in to it with you.

"Out of control kids running around with assault weapons?" Come on, snap back to reality, not the one force fed to you by the tv. Sure some misguided people get a hold of RIFLES (because that is all an "assault weapon" is) and do terrible things. But our country would not be the first to harbor such individuals, nor the last to punish them severely and recognize that those event happen about as often or less as people dying to lightning each year. That is NEVER to say I condone it, I abhor it, but like I and Lurch have already stated, guns are just the vehicle of violence, and it will happen one way or another.

I have said my peace, and hope you think on it Stone.

Lurch, mate you are in denial. As far as gun deaths in America goes, the statistic suggest otherwise. America has a significantly higher rate of gun death compared to other developed countries. Yes, I do think that this high rate of gun death is related to guns.



Come on Lurch, the biggest cause of gun death and injury is gun violence in the home. Kellermann proved that, and that because that didn’t fit in with big macho sheep dog image of wannabe heroes, the NRA persecuted him, and I mean persecuted.



Really! I’d suggest the NRA is tapping into the female market to sell more guns. The gun-community in America is the NRA, a group of self-styled vigilantes in camo gear. Just look at what their leaders are saying: "Apartheid isn't that cut and dry. All men are not created equal..." the motor city madman. “No more than five to ten people in a hundred who die by gunfire in Los Angeles are any loss to society.”
Jeff Cooper. What the NRA is not run by psycho nuts?



I do think someone who has a gun on their hip is going to be more confrontational. You know that is why they had the famous “Check your guns at the door policy “ at saloons in the Wild West. Frontier towns introduced strict – highly successful- gun control measures to reduce violence. Remember, the gunfight at the OK corral, was about keeping guns out of Tombstone.




Stop blaming the media for your problems. All they do is report what happens. Suggest you watch World News Australia for a great coverage of world events.



Got that in one



Exactly, they are not hunting rifles, they are assault weapons designed to kill human beings, and they have NO place in the community. So why would someone want to AR15 if they weren’t planning to kill humans?



Doppelganger, if you are not prepared to own your words, the don't say them.

I am sorry, what words did I disown? <-- I really want an answer to this one.



And you don't think it's possible that the lack of gun deaths are made up for with other deaths utilizing other weapons?



Last time I checked the NRA did not sell guns.



Neither of us blamed the media, I simply said that this stuff happened before the media, but now that it broadcasts these things all the time, it makes it look like an every day thing. And like Lurch said, the news is very unbalanced, and employ scare tactics for the ignorant to latch on to. *cough*



Actually most of the "assault weapons you are referring to use a smaller caliber than hunting rifles. What a gun is designed for is far different than what it's employed for. I could kill someone with a potato peeler if I really wanted to.

Thomas Jefferson - 3rd president of the United States 1801 to 1809, principal author of the declaration of independence.



Bill Clinton - 42nd president of the United States 1993 to 2001, presided over the longest period of peace-time economic expansion in American history, which included a balanced budget and a reported federal surplus.



Sylvester Stallone - Hollywood actor - famous for his role as "Rambo", a Vietnam Veteran.



sounds a bit like faschist attitude to me - I followed both of your suggestions. Had the chance to migrate and live in the US, passed and don't intend to visit any time soon.

At the same time: are you suggesting that those US Americans (who don't like the 2nd ammendment either) should leave the country?



Doppelganger: You might not agree with some of the rules and laws and customs of Europe and Australia - can't say for the latter, but you're still welcome in the former (and don't worry, most likely we won't shoot you).

The reason why "the world around you" is concerned about your attitude is because the US (gun) problems are spilling over the borders of your country. Not only to your neighbors (Canada and Mexico) but also worldwide.

Foulmouth language and crude behavior against fellow citizens and the environment is spurred, ignorance is promoted - but most important you look good and fancy...

Not saying that this is *only* due to US "culture" but saying that the reflection of US "culture" and politics are promoting this attitude throughout the world.



The violence is not caused by the tool alone, but the presence of the tool makes the violence deadly - and as such irreversible.

The US (unfortunately) today is not ready to take the reponsibility for the sad effects its culture has on the planet and mankind. Not trying to paint "the US as the ultimate adolescent" but saying that the tacky and ruthless capitalist attitude is promoting the worst in human attitudes: greed and recklessness.

We're not more than asking the US to finally *grow up* - instead of just *old*. It might be of importance to realize that the US is one of the youngest global superpowers - just as Islam is one of the worlds youngest (and largest) monotheistic religions - and as such is in dear need of self-reflection and adjustment to ideals of peace, cooperation and empathy...

You could kill someone with your bare hands, there is no question about it... it's just a lot more attitude and effort involved than pulling a trigger. True these things happened throughout times - and I'm not a friend of attention-grabbing media coverage - but it's positive that we do have information about what is (still) going on in the world today and what issues (still) need to be adressed.

It has been pointed out a few times throughout this thread: the second ammendment was written in quite different times and under different (political) circumstances - the US does not have a well trained militia, it has a well trained military and as such is sufficiently protected against an external threat.

It's about time you realize that you're not living in the 18th century any more... the world is round, the UK and Europe are not your enemies and (hard to believe but) even the Bush administration has adhered to basic democratic and constitutional regulations

The NRA is not selling guns, true - last time I checked Osama Bin Laden didn't kill anyone either

Americans have never had access to an "Uzi", or any other automatic weapon for that matter, and he is right, if we DID have them, we would not need them for hunting. But who is to say that's all a gun is for anyway?

I really don't care what Sylvester Stallone's opinion is... Or any other famous movie star.

I am saying that if someone really does have a problem with it, then yeah, get out. America was founded on the Constitution, we are free outside of that (well not anymore really). If you can't abide by the Constitution, then you should not be in America, simple. Everything outside the Constitution you can believe or adhere to in any way you want.

As for the not shooting me in Australia, I know that very well, just as I expected you to catch that you are not really going to get shot, the chances are so low. It was an effort to get you guys to realize that with all your worry and grief, in the end if you come here, you're not going to get shot.

"Foulmouth language and crude behavior against fellow citizens and the environment is spurred, ignorance is promoted - but most important you look good and fancy..." -- I am not sure what you are referring to here.

I think America is accountable for our actions in allowing citizens to own guns, but certainly not *responsible* for the deaths they cause. There is a large difference, don't blame America for an Americans mistake, blame that American.

You're right, the Constitution was written in a different age in different times. What you guys don't seem to understand is that regardless of those times and events, the underlying principle has never died. And that is why we hold it in so much esteem.