Poi Guidebook For Everyone

Ok so here we, it was an hour ago I read it but I will try to remember my thoughts.
They may not come in order I just write the pieces I remember.

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The head, what I remember you described like follow your movement with the head, what I miss in that sentence is to practise the total opposite. When your arms for example are placed on the left side of you body, look to the right, it gives the trick and the person that perform it a totally different look. And remember that your body always should be balanced while spinning so always try to use your different bodyparts to compensate and among these the head is very important.

Feet, try to most of the time work with flat feet to the ground and not only toe tapping the ground. Some people tend to lift there feet from the ground to take a step, and when they supposed to put down there feet they only touch the ground with there toes before they lift the foot again to move and put it down somewhere else and many times they put down there foot only to realize "ah [censored] I lost my balance" and they need to move again, off course the person don´t realize that the brain is telling them to move the feet, they just do it. For a person watching this it gives a feeling of lack in controll and balance even though they don´t realize it, it still gives the audience the feeling. When you lift your feet from the ground make sure to know where to put it next, make it smooth and with a clear decision.

Dantian: Yes you are so right, but when I play i always try to move the centre even further down to somewhere on my thighs. With that I mean that I try to play with bend knees, never push them back and lock them, when you do stalls for example, do them from you thighs/knees not only in your arms. When you played poi for three hours and you go to bed tired in back, torso, shoulders, neck and so on, there is maybe something wrong, try to practice next time so you get tired in you thighs. However watch out for "I crapped my pants but I keep spin poi anyway style"

Arms: Learn to play with straight arms, many moves in poi is being based of making circles and to make a good circle you need a good centre of rotation, If this centre is moving around the whole time (that is what happens if you bend your arms) you will never learn the rythm of a simple flower cos the centre of rotation change place every time and even though it´s just a tiny tiny bit your brain will never learn the move cos it´s different every time. Learn with straight arms and then play around with bend arms.

Learning a trick: Repeat, repeat, repeat as you say but I say it again, you never learn a trick, sorry. I don´t know how many times I told myself "yes I can finally do the BTB weave to find myself saying the same thing a month or two later. Repeat, repeat and repeat even more, a move never gets good enough!

Transitions is what I can see a big problem in the poi world. Many people don´t realize how big impact transitions have your style and the way you play poi. It´s the transitions that makes your style, it´s the transitions that makes you unique, it´s the transitions that can [censored] with other poi spinners mind not necessary the trick/move itself.

That is what I can remember, sorry for being off topic if I went off topic and also remember this thoughts goes for me and not what scream out is right or wrong.

Keep writing dude, this is good!

//Thomas

thomas, thank you very much!
maybe you've seen already that I am currently re-writing this 3 year old thread so I will definitely pay attention to some of the aspects you have mentioned! stay tuned, tiger muhaha

Chapter I & II updated, ain't that good news?

max

duvan: I think that your points about stepping and head movement in particular are useful.

I tend to use the principles I learned about movement in karate, but not as precisely. The "angry serious" look can get a bit much after a while. I try to avoid it unless I am hamming it up. And yes, looking the "wrong" way when doing a trick can be amusing:
Like a horizontal stall out to the right of a butterfly done just after you look left gets a couple funny looks.

Will need to think about other stuff.

Nevisoul: re: learning a move.T here is definitely a point when I find I can say that I "know" a move. For me it is when I can do it continuously/consciously. For example, I can do a btb weave continuously now. (Transitions are an issue though.... ) Beyond that, I know that I can clean it up and get it better, but I still think that saying that I "know" the btb weave is not unwarranted.

right or try looking at the audience while doing antispin buzzsaw flower and stuff


Chapter III, IV & V updated. there have been a lot of changes. worth reading a second time if you read this thread 3 years ago for the last time

The pictures rock!

very nice,

:R

Now, this stuff really start to take shape and I like what I see and read, a lot.

Max, I know that you have a lot to do but I would be very happy to see this as a PDF named to something you have in mind.

If there is anything I could help you with to make this possible, please tell me. Love your stuff, you got a good mind but I told you that before....

And please don´t call me Tiger, no one here gets the joke (hopefully ), I threw the belt in the garbage so no more Tiger, except for you

//Thomas

aston: Didn´t notice until now that you replied to me, sorry.

Here is a more detailed explanation of what I mean though.

We take the BTB weave as you mentioned for an example. You can do it continuously/consciously in this moment as you say. But the more you play poi you will discover so much more of how your body, feet, wrist, fingers, arms, shoulder and so on work together and this is where it all change.

The BTB weave you can do now is based on the possibilities of your body combined with your poi but what happens when you realize that you all this time moved your feet wrong or that your body had a bad position or as simple as the planes, you just suddenly realize HOW TO ACTUALLY DO IT, and this is where it change, to another trick, in my opinion, yes.

And this is the reason that I write that I never learn a trick cos it´s always under development. Yes I can do a trick but none of them looks the same as they did when I learned them.
I could do the BTB weave for more or less four years ago but I still cant say that I can do it forwards, backwards perhaps but I know that there is something missing, I don´t know what yet, but I know that it will improve this move a lot when I realize what I been doing wrong this whole time, again

So to make it short, I never learn a trick cos I always realize after a while Ivé been doing it wrong so instead of doing the same mistake again (telling myself I can do trick) I prefer to say that it´s always under development.

I hope all this text made it a little bit more clear

And don´t forget that is all in my mind and how I think and I´m a mental poi geek *moahahaha*

Hey max...great work on the rewrites there. Yep, I hadn't read this thread since it first appeared in 2005...IIRC, I quite liked it then too.

The only thing I disagree with is the importance of having a teacher, especially at the beginning of one's spinning career. The reason i disagree is that having a teacher makes learning so much faster and there's a greater chance that a neophyte spinner will stay with these arts if they're given a large body of knowledge to play with right from the get go.

I'm speaking from personal experience here, because when I started spinning back in 2003,, when there was very little ( comparatively speaking ) out there in the way of instructional aids, I most likely wouldn't have stayed with these arts had I been left to my own devices to figure it out.

Likewise with learning a trick ( hey, it took me two years to learn the btb weave ) sometimes it really helps to have someone who "knows" the move to observe and point out possible bad habits or faults that are hindering the spinner in their quwst to learn a trick.

All in all, you're totally right on with the idea that a teacher is no substitute for practice, likewise with the idea of setting a specific time frame for working on a trick.

I'll usually work on a trick right up until I start getting frustrated with it, then either freestyle a little ( just to re convince myself that I don't suck ) or simply put the poi down and go do something else for a few hours. This is mostly due to my awareness that I might not "get" that trick today, but if I "sleep on it" I'll most likely have more success with it the next time around.

Then there's what i call "making it strong" which is to say, that once I've "learned" a trick, I have to drill it 10 000 times including transitioning into, and out of that trick so I can get it reliable enough to incorporate into my regular spinning repertoire. As an example, I've been working on airwraps, hyperloops and orbitals over the past four days...I've got airwraps down "pretty good ( both directions out/in ) and I'm aware that my in/out needs lots of work ( feels somehow "unnatural", like antispin ) and my hyperloops are "coming along. I can "do" hyperloops, but there's a certain smoothness lacking and a successful hyperloop, in the way I want to perform these is still a rarity.....so I'll drill 'em until they're where I want them. ( both directions, but only turning forwards, as I'm saving the backwards turning for orbitals....I get confused easily

Nevisoul: I get what you mean. I just view it as the same trick on another plane of elegance/panache/ease of doing/whatever. Understand your view and do not disagree, is just not quite how I think of it.

Stout: Good points I think. :applause:

Ahhhh, it does get interesting now, this book. I didn't read it however many years ago. Cos let's face it, poi is for girls, or in your guys cases, girly boys.

I was thinking about writing something similar along these lines, cos I get so bored of people asking me certain questions, which I have answered before and are also the wrong questions. Interesting to see some of my points written out by you Max.

One thing I particularly enjoy (something a friend pointed out to me) that when at a convention, most people when practising, and they pull something off, or they totally fail at a trick, will look up/around afterwards at the person they respect the most, to see if they saw thier success or failure. It's an interesting bit of body language to look for at a gathering.

Wow... I don't know how many times I've done that without conciously thinking about it.

Not surprisingly a bunch of the staff hopefuls at the Rochester gathering were eyeing you, hehe. I mean, aside from the fact that you're of the female persuasion.

That is interesting though, I'll have to keep an eye out on myself and others to see who has a "manipulation crush" on someone else. =)

nevisoul: I thought about doing something like that. I thought about making a nice little DVD where I or someone else can actually show what I am talking about (like different head positions etc). The DVD would contain this guidebook in high quality hard cover, with better (self drawn pictures made by a friend who studied arts for a couple of years) and a nice, little surprise. well, besides the fact that this DVD will probably never happen making a pdf sounds like a reasonable idea. I can't do it right now but if I have some spare time I'll get back to your offer hehe

stout: I agree with what you said. You got some nice points and if you don't mind I would like to use some of what you just said in an edited version of Chapter V (of course I'd give creds to you, my man!)

mcp: Poi is for girls, that's right so why are you playing staff
I laughed when I read what you said about people practising at conventions. Thomas and I talked a lot about this phenomenon and we came to the conclusion that it is funny to see that some people don't focus on practising the trick but rather on showing off and trying to look as good as possible. Then on the other hand I have to blame myself for exactly the same behaviour when I was not very good at poi (and even today at times) so I think it is quite natural. Sometimes I still find myself seeking other peoples' approval on conventions which is really a [censored] bad habit or mindset. Once I get approval I am happy but I get addicted to it. If I don't get approval within the next few hours again I start to feel down and my brain-autopilot starts asking questions such as "Wow, why don't I get approval again? Is it because I play a lot worse than I did before?." and so on. I often forget about the fact that others people approval doesn't make a difference at all lol. Oh and yeah, I am pretty sure that it's almost the same for all of us, although some people wouldn't admit

The most bizarre thing for me recently is being told that I am good. I do not consider myself overly good, but then I am exposed to how much more there is that I do not know, while my audience here, even if they are spinners, tend not to go online for videos and such.

So it is a bit odd, but a nice thing to hear.

Dunno if that is at all relevant to what you want to say...

not at all but interesting to hear anyways hehe

Figured.

Still an aspect of poi psychology, which may be why I thought it was relevant.

How important do you think being told you are good is to a learning curve? I have never done any sort of organised psychology or anything, so am just curious....

Confidence... that would influence the phenomenon discussed in this thread, if you havent read it already...

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/ubbt...y_and_habi.html

I'm sorry, I saw naked girls advertised...?

haha I KNEW it would work for pervs like you
but that's ok - check it out:
hot chick with nice pussy

as for aston's question - I'll write something later, can't think right now hehe

That link just killed her. At least, since she fell over and is rolling on the floor, I assume that this will be fatal.

I think I answered my own question though. I did not really need to know that I was good. Now I have expectations placed on me that I know vaguely what I am doing, instead of being able to just ponce around.

Ah well, not going to stop me spinning.

Max, I just did a quick read, and it looks fabulous!!!!

A few ideas might benefit from development... The one that stands out is the concept of starting a move from the dantien point. Sure, that is one good balance and center point, and can be very useful. But in dance one thing taught is the ability to change the center point of balance, and also change where a move is held, or where it is initiated from.

It can be that in some moves one point serves better than another functionally. An example of this is as you say, the matrix, which can be best held from the dantien. But a piroette turn might be better held in the chest...

In other situations different center points can simply be "read" by the audience as a different style, giving a different character, or emotional reading to the movement.

You cited belly dance as an example of a low dantien center. Examples of where the center is different would be ballet, where it is typically situated much higher, and therefore results in dance that appears much more elevated and light. Doing a jete ( leap) from the dantien point is difficult, and does not look so good. Similarily, the center is held in the chest region for most tango, and that too creates quite a different appearance to the dance. Styles can benefit from using different centers, and certain movements within each style also. An examle where the ability to shift is useful and can look very visually engaging would be to have a dancer to start a turn low, from the dantien, with a hip swivel, then as it carries up the body simultaneously raise the center so it come up to the chest... sort of a spirally look.

So, perhaps having the awareness and control to change this point would be the ideal , from my perspective. If you want a low, grounded taichi style, or a earthy belly dance character, use the dantien. if you are an etherial ariel angel, you might want to raise it up to the chest... etc... Other moments you might want to have an altogether different focus, it is fun to experiment!

The other tip is also one used in dance, where one is taught to be aware of the core connection from toes all the way through to head, and out... This is useful for balance, and elevation. It can also be used to help people visualize the core line and tension from ground to sky through the body, and then how that can be extended out through the limbs, to give life and intention to the movement of the arms and legs.

It is hard to explain this without visuals, but I hope I make some sense1

smiles
a

Aston, it depends on your interpretation. You can either see it as "An expectation that you know what you're doing" and then from that mean that you can't "ponce around"

OR you can see it as "A comment that you seem to know what you're doing" Meaning that your past poncing around has gotten you to a fairly good place as it is, and that you should as such continue along the lines you have been. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't change your style or approach, it just means that you shouldn't let the comment influence what you're doing, since it seems to be working! Use it as a confidence booster to try new things.

Hi Aston...I figure we all want to hear we're good as it's nice to hear that all your hard work in practice has somehow paid off in your acquiring a demonstrable skill.

We all know whose put the time in, and usually a lay audience can tell too, so those positive affirmations can be taken as motivators too.

Me?? I'm just an attention whore

Andrea...GREAT post.. that balance from the chest was the idea I was originally going for. I never found anyone to discuss it with and eventually gave up exploring it on my own because I was unable to make the connection between a "high center of balance" and tripping over my own two feet.

I'll plan to revisit the idea, it's been three years..

A lot of that comes from where your arms are and what you direction of movement is.

Lifting your arms will raise it, for example in a giant butterfly, you will appear to lift up. (I sometimes make it explicit by raising onto my toes.) But how do you raise it more permanently?

I'm missing three more chapters Duvan.

keep on going,

:R

no, sorry aston, ---raising your arms raises the visual center maybe, but not necessarily changing where you hold yourself, or originate the movements from... so the effect on the move and the character of the move is much smaller, quire different really.

I can still do a giant butterfly, even raising to my toes, while using my dantien center( low) . I could also do it from the chest.It would change the quality of the movement though.



I am going to see if I have a dance ook that explains this concept better than I can! Or a vid that shows it or something. I have never tried to explain it without demonstrating movement!
smiles
a

Hey Max...do you mind us hijacking your thread for a bit ? After all the topics are directly related to your guide book and I'm figuring that once you've finished the rewrites, maybe a thread dedicated to the guidebook can be stickied at the top of the page.

aston..I see what you mean..and I experimented with this spinning a fountain last night and had a measure of success with it as I managed to keep thinking about the movement coming from my chest even when the poi came down low.

It was fun actually, but the whole thing went south the minute I tried to turn the fountain and my footing became unstable forcing me to "get down low" to bring things under control..

I'll spend more time on this today..

I do the giant BF up on my toes too, feet together , but spread my feet immediately when the poi come down, I'll think about this more and try it with the giant windmill...see what I can get going with that.

further hijacking, sorry:

Stout, the other technique I mentionned, visualising a core of tension from the ground, through your feet, up the body and out the top of your head, like a line running inside/through you held very tightly, holding you up while simultaneously grounding you- would enable you to spin the move while retaining a upper center...

Teachers used to actually try to have the visulisation effect so strong they could go and pretend to "pull" from the cord where it comes out from the head, and see if it "lifted" you... imaginary, but it changes something physically about how you hold yourself. It seems it strengthens connectivity.

Try using it while raising on your toes( a releve) , one foot or two, and balancing. Compare to how it feels without visualizing this. Then do it again, and close your eyes... when you feel wobbly, reinforce the energy at the wobby point, pushing it and running down through your feet, or pull up through the head. It works!

okay, enough taking this thread sideways! Sorry max!

banshee: I totally get your point! And I'm glad you mentioned it for I simply would not have thought about it. Brilliant stuff, would you mind if I borrowed some when re-writing the "Torso" Chapter?

As for the rest: will still take me some time, things are a little stressfull right now. But I'll definitely finish guidebook before the end of the month, I hope

as for the hijacking: go ahead, I don't mind. I mean it isn't really hijacking. That's some nice and interesting discussions. Keep it going!

Meh. Need to dig out my old ballet knowledge again I think. Not that merely watching is much good.

Like I say, I can raise it temporarily, but to keep it up is hard. Part of that is the way people here spin, which is very down low, so my centre tends to sink. Also, doing Goju Ryu karate, you tend to keep it low for that as well.

I think I will have to try and just move.

Thanks Andrea...I gave it a go last night, and wow....does that visualisation idea ever help.

That's one thing I notices about Nick Woolsey, he had the whole "up" thing going and I was trying to emulate it more through my shoulders rather than thinking whole body. Also, there might have been a few self sabotage ideas going on too like....hey I'm raising my center of gravity therefore I should be less stable..

The closed eyes idea is absolutely brilliant...

Cheers