Negative space and framing

Squid was saying that he wants to use this with fire. Some of the stuff BlueCat was doing is awesome, but not possible with fire.

So is not so much saying that it matters, but that the specific negative space stuff in that video will not work and that alternatives need to be found.

I also do not see everything to do with fire. I am playing with the limitations of my home-made flag poi at the moment. And some of the negative space stuff is fun with those.

I think I was just annoyed after busking escapades... people constantly demanding I set things on fire. Most people were pretty good, but yeah, the fire fire fire thing was irking me that day.

I've been thinking of making some flags... do the flags slip by your skin as you play with negative space?

And anyone out there who is proficient with negative space care to add a few tips at beginning to play with the concept?? Its not something thats naturally integrating with my style, but I think I'd benefit greatly from learning to integrate it!

They tend to reduce what there is, even TTNs look like they are a lot more complicated than they are.

Also, timing things so that one slips behind the other (differing speeds) could be considered negative space from the audience's viewpoint.

At least if I understand the concept correctly....

And yeah, I know what you mean about the whole "Set it on fire!" "When are you burning those?" thing. *sigh*

Have not spun fire in a couple months. Will be on Saturday, which will be a nice change.

Not a worry, MNS. I realized later that mentioning fire isn't really crucial. I don't actually use fire but rarely, anyways.

Thanks for mentioning the Spinach sessions. I'll need to review that and see where it takes me.

Still, it seems that negative space is somewhat of an obscure topic. In other areas of poi spinning we speak in terms of specific moves and hand positions. With this, it feels like so much is unexplored. Or at least undefined. Maybe my brain just isnt seeing the light.

Yeah, I dunno... I think its that its undefined. I mean... I've seen enough on negative space to know it when I see it but theres "That one there" , "the one where it goes through that hole and you pull the other one out like that." and "straitjackets" and since my actual self exploration with negative space has been so far unsuccessful I find it difficult to really nail down what I'm seeing... thats what makes it obscure to me.

hmm. I seem to find its pretty well defined for me using the following stuff

hand leading or head leading?
inversions
exversions (coming out of an inversion....)
what frame is being created (arm to side, poi on shoulder, poi loop, etc)
thrown or spun?
and whether it is true framing or relative framing, and by how much....

does that help at all?

Actually, I have been thinking about it and I think that getting complete true framing with fire is very hard.

Need to play with it some more though.

Well, I finally finished reading this entire thread and...whew! While its mainly theoretics and semantics, it did give me some concrete ideas I'm starting to play with:
-between the legs buzzsaw, arms on either side and moving back and forth between the triangle created by the legs.

-inverted stalls; one poi up, other down and with the final position having the wrists crossed and touching with both poi entering and exiting inside the holes made by the arms. This one is still eluding me completely. One hand enters cleanly, but getting both requires some precision.

-I think bluecat mentions this and demonstrates in the Spinach salad: Right hand catches Right poi head and creates a loop with the Right poi leash. Left poi enters the loop from above and then release the Right poi head and then exit the ensuing tangle via an airwrap or hyperloop. Its a fun techy move, but not very dancerlike or fire friendly.



I'll try to come back from time to time as other examples come to me, but I've always been bad about that kind of follow through *thinks back to meteor wiki*. There is definitely a lot of ideas floating around in my head, but I can't yet make them come to life.

On a tangent (and thanks, btw, for the mental exercise):
after reading through the (w)hole thread, I prefer Rev's definition of Framed over negative space. There's nothing wrong with the usage of negative space, but I am a formally trained artist more than familiar with Malevich and all that theory. The practical usage of poi inside a defined space makes more sense to me personally as being Framed by a particular position or stance that the artist makes with either their body, the tool, or a combination of both. Poi+negative space implies something more physically involved than simply the space around the performer. Rather, it is how the tool moves within a conscribed space made BY the performer.

If a photograph encompasses and delineates a certain negative space in relation to the frame of the photo, the patterns, or overall stances of the performer, then the negative space is an artistic point being made by the photographer, not the performer. Simply because the two artists may work conciously in conjunction to show that space does not make it an artisitc statement of the poi. Its an artistic statement of the photograph.

Oh squid... *shakes head* (thats for your awful pun :D)

I liked the inverted stall... and I think I'll have to have a REALLY close look at bluecats bow tying thingy and have a punt at that... that looks like fun.

i'm with ya on it being more framing than negative space, but i'm just used to the term cause its what jugglers use, and thats where i nicked most of the ideas

but i have to disagree on it not being dancy. i actually usually find that when looping up i have more ability to dance, simply because i'm no longer having to spin a poi the spinach sessions is a bad example cause i was in a tiny space trying to show some ideas....

the bow tying is fun. it'll be on the big list of tutorial videos to make in bristol

nice to see people interestid in this. if you ever get a chance, check out yoshiki from paris. he is pretty damn fine at n.s spinning....

I got the bow tying... but its a pain with my poi... they're too floopy to easily get to hang off my arm, so it takes a VERY precise throw to get it to drop over my arm and into my hand.

The knot will take a bit more to get nice and quick, but it might be easier with different poi... I think I'll use that one fairly heavily busking, bluecat.. a bit of a funny finisher... I tend to tell really lame jokes and stuff, so that'll fit in well!

I found the framing idea to be palatable however the whole idea of applying the idea of negative space I thought a very difficult concept to get my head around and just sort of tossed it aside hoping that this thread would become less artsy and tedious and more enlightening.

It has become more enlightening in the past group of posts. I can't say I use the framing technique, but hey, now at least I know what this thread is all about.

How about a shorter list of tutorials from the mighty Rob? I dont think I've ever seen your teaching style online and Im sure people would flock to those kinds of vids in droves.


I admit, Im just learning to push my understanding of Negative space. Hopefully I will find myself dancing more once I get consistent and comfortable with that move. I got the idea today to have my entire arm follow the poi through the loop all the way to my shoulder and then release the loop and move straight into a 2bt hybrid. Just depends on if I can get my movements smooth enough.

Is yoshiki here or in the Burn Crew Concepts homepage?

The Spinach Sessions are awesome.

Are there any vids of Yoshiki?

*goes off to look*

I found some info on Yoshiki through the uber events webpage:
http://www.uberevents.org/?q=node/39

oh-kay....

being slightly obsessive as I am, Im still working on negative space here and there. I found some inspiration in some juggling videos and my new swing clubs. So...in the interest of documenting examples that can be played with, I had a simple move dawn on me.

If you are comfortable with threading the needle, then do that. Keep your hands as close together as possible. Got it? Ok then, look down at your feet (keep spinning the TTN, goofball). Did you notice the negative space framed by your arms?

Why is it that we always keep the TTN external? I know Im not the first person to invert this, but hey!, play with it. Both poi in, if you can. Or one poi in, one poi out. Other poi in, then you shake it all about.


should I stop? (this is what happens with evening time expresso)

anywho, I find it less straining in reverse, but more fun forwards.

Erm, has anyone been able to download this Yoshiki video that Squid pointed us to??

Squid: Have you delved deeply into Rev's Spherculist Manifesto and/or watched his videos? It goes hand in hand with negative-space/framing. Find all of your basic entries for inswings. Get comfortable with how they exit to a n outside plan and how they exit to an inside plane.

Play with TTN same time and split-time. There are a bunch of different variations on butterfly, including 1st degree (barrelroll) inversions, introversions, and TTN done inside planes (you'll likely look a bit like an ape when you do it)

-Alien Jon

HI there, Jon. I haven't ever gotten all the way through it. Between Rev's Manifesto and Arashi's insides, introversions, and extroversions....well, it gets overwhelming sometimes. Rev's videos have been easier to digest, but its just so incomplete without having finished the Manifesto itself.

But thanks for bringing that up. It is something I need to review now that Im focusing on these specific theories.



oh, and I cant download the Yoshiki video either. I just thought it was a problem with my outdated iBook. There are a lot of things my computer can't download or process these days. I will go back on the search and see if I can locate anything else.

I wasn't able to download it, Jon.

I havent been able to neg space it up much at all, inversions always screwed with my head. But I got the inverted weave and butterfly barrel rolls.

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lightning,

:R