#838254 - 05/09/0709:09 AMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: Sambo_Flux]
Stone
Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
I never felt that evolution was a direct contradict to my religious beliefs growing up as a Catholic. I agree, I think it’s more about discrediting Darwin. From my point of view, I just don’t think Darwin’s religious contemporaries ever got over the fact that he suggested they were closely related to monkeys. I’d suggest they thought they were created specially by god, and considered themselves vastly superior to all other creatures on the planet.
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#838255 - 05/09/0709:20 AMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: Stone]
Poje
Elusive bearded fire moose
Registered: 02/05/07
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
i never understood why creationism and evolution clashed so badly. Why cant some religious people beleive that just because their god created things, the things are able to change and adapt?
#838257 - 05/09/0711:52 AMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: Invader Xan]
robnunchucks
enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/04
Loc: manchester uk
poje
i never understood why creationism and evolution clashed so badly. Why cant some religious people beleive that just because their god created things, the things are able to change and adapt?
its a nice idea but that still contradicts what the evidence and current theorys regarding evolution. the problem is if we assume evolution is correct. which has been increadably convinceingly estabished over the last 150 years, i meen it predicted the discovery of genetics amongst other things. then we are left with only one posable role for god to play.
to put it simply if evolution is true then this is what god did at most
first god creates a single simple self replicateing chemical and puts it on earth. Then over then next four and a half billion years he creates tiny point mutations but is very carful to ensures that the point mutations are statisicaly indistinguisable from what we would expect to see if the mutations were occureing at random.
but heres the kicker non of it was needed god is totaly pointless in this process it would have happend perfectly well without his intervention
this is the threat to religion evolution posess. evolution doesn't disprove the existance of god it just shows he is a totaly unnecessary part of it.
and FireTom did you even read my original post or just the title??
Written by: Mint Sauce
I don’t want a discussion on intelligent design V evolution (that’s hear)
Written by: Sambo_Flux
*plays transformers noise*
LOL (a lot) very good
Written by: Sambo_Flux
I reckon it's because evolution is the only scientific theory that DIRECTLY contradicts the bible.
Humm not sure there are lots of thing in the bible that Science has proved wrong but I think evolution is such a big and still developing theory that they think they can pull it apart.
Example: at 01:02 (or 06:40 depending if its countting down or up??)
#838259 - 05/09/0708:50 PMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: robnunchucks]
Invader Xan
Klaatu barada nikto!
Registered: 07/05/05
Loc: Somewhere sunny and nice.
Written by: robnunchucks
this is the threat to religion evolution posess. evolution doesn't disprove the existance of god it just shows he is a totaly unnecessary part of it.
Not necessarily true. Perhaps God wrote the rule book and evolution is the game...
FYI... Darwin's original theory was the theory of Natural Selection not evolution. In fact, in his book Origin of Species he only used the word once -- on the final page.
Natural selection is proven fact. Humans have been using it for a long time! If God created wolves, it was man who bred them into collies, dalmations and poodles (as well as breeding all kinds of other plants and animals).
Actually, Creationism makes more sense to me than ID. Any scientist worth listening to will tell you that the big puzzles (where the universe came from and how life even started) are still open.
_________________________ "Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
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#838260 - 05/09/0710:36 PMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: Invader Xan]
jarle
Lv15 Ranger
Registered: 13/03/07
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Written by: Invader Xan
Natural selection is proven fact. Humans have been using it for a long time!
Actually, humans use artificial selection, which is slightly different in name and purpose - artificial selection is used by humans to continue traits that are useful to us and eliminate those that aren't.
Natural selection occurs due to what people think of as 'survival of the (genetically) fitest. In other words, the predators that are able to catch more prey have more food, impress the ladies and have more babies (ouch, horrible rhyme... BAD Jarle!). Prey on the other hand; those that are better able to run away or stay hidden are more likely to mate, and thus pass on their genes to the next generation.
Ironically enough, in Britain during the Industrial revolution there where two breeds of the same moth - white and black. Black were rare because the birds kept eating them, they couldn't see the white ones for all the snow. However, once factories started up and soot was everywhere, the black ones couldn't be seen and thus the white ones got eaten - natural selection by a human cause!
Ironically enough, in Britain during the Industrial revolution there where two breeds of the same moth - white and black. Black were rare because the birds kept eating them, they couldn't see the white ones for all the snow However, once factories started up and soot was everywhere, the black ones couldn't be seen and thus the white ones got eaten
Snow all year round? Bloody global warming. Now we hardly ever get snow
However, as i know that this is actually true, I cant complain.
Though the cleaners did a good job of getting rid of all that soot that was everywhere.
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Invader Xan
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Written by: jarle
Actually, humans use artificial selection, which is slightly different in name and purpose - artificial selection is used by humans to continue traits that are useful to us and eliminate those that aren't.
Well corrected. Either way, my point is that we've been shaping evolution for a long time. It's reasonable to assume it's a process that takes place just as readily in our absence.
Written by: UnderControlOrFailure
Though the cleaners did a good job of getting rid of all that soot that was everywhere.
Depends what city you're talking about!
_________________________ "Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
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Mynci
Macaque of all trades
Registered: 27/04/05
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Written by: UnderControlOrFailure
Written by: jarle
Ironically enough, in Britain during the Industrial revolution there where two breeds of the same moth - white and black. Black were rare because the birds kept eating them, they couldn't see the white ones for all the snow However, once factories started up and soot was everywhere, the black ones couldn't be seen and thus the white ones got eaten
Snow all year round? Bloody global warming. Now we hardly ever get snow
However, as i know that this is actually true, I cant complain.
Though the cleaners did a good job of getting rid of all that soot that was everywhere.
actually this moth scenario was because the moths lived on elm trees which had white bark, the soot rested on the trees making them darker and the white ones stood out not snow related at all but the general point is correct
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#838264 - 05/09/0711:37 PMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: Invader Xan]
The Tea Fairy
old hand
Registered: 02/07/04
Loc: Behind you...
Written by: Invader Xan
Perhaps God wrote the rule book and evolution is the game...
That's kind of my belief about it. Darwin was a Christian, later in his life his belief in Christianity and the literal meaning of the Bible subsided, he lost the belief that God intervened directly in the world, but he never denied or refuted the existence of God (I checked on Wikipedia! Was pretty sure Darwin believed in God, despite some of his contemporaries viewing his theories as heresy).
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#838265 - 05/09/0711:39 PMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: Invader Xan]
robnunchucks
enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/04
Loc: manchester uk
Invader Xan - Either way, my point is that we've been shaping evolution for a long time. It's reasonable to assume it's a process that takes place just as readily in our absence.
exacly true and thats my point just as evolution would continue perfectly well in our absence, so to would it continue perfectly well in the absence of god.
this is the problem before evolution god was the only explanation for our existance there for our existance was proof of god. untill evolution this was always the number one reason for beleaveing in a god.
since evolution though thats no longer true its no longer a case of we need god to explain life. its now a case of life was bound to happen with or without god. but if you want you can bolt god onto the side of the proccess and assume he went to great lengths to cover up his involvment.
now the main problem for very religous people is it shows genissis as writen is wrong, it didn't actualy happen.
this is a huge problem for the bible because it is supposed to be the inerent word of god, it should have no mistakes. If large sections of it are shown to be untrue then it raises the question of wether any of it is true.
this question in combination with the fact we no longer need god to explain the world we live in is the danger for fundimentalists.
by excepting evolution you risk seting off a domino effect that in many cases ends in atheism (it did for me and im very glad it did) this is why people are so threatend by evolution.
The Tea Fairy - Darwin was a Christian, later in his life his belief in Christianity and the literal meaning of the Bible subsided, he lost the belief that God intervened directly in the world
yes this is a posable solution to the problem however it has alot of side effects many people dont relise. for example if this is true then:-
god doesn't answer prayer
jesus wasn't the son of god
the bible was just a book writen by men and nothing to do with god
god didn't care about humans ariseing as a dominant specics we are nothing special in his eyes
god doesn't save people from floods, fires, earthquakes etc
there is no moral code handed down from god
while it might be posable to have an afterlife our only knowlage of it comes from the bible and jesus so were realy just hopeing (we also know nothing about how to get into it).
you have become a deist and you have to beleave that god is no longer a part of our world and hasn't been for 20 billion years we are on our own.
basicly you have define god down to be just the first causes what ever that may be and you can't even be sure that cause had an inteligence.
#838267 - 06/09/0712:43 AMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: robnunchucks]
Invader Xan
Klaatu barada nikto!
Registered: 07/05/05
Loc: Somewhere sunny and nice.
Written by: robnunchucks
now the main problem for very religous people is it shows genissis as writen is wrong, it didn't actualy happen.
It's always the fundamentalists who take issue...
I mean even the Pope has said in the past that Genesis is mostly metaphoric. The thing I always thought was uncanny is -- the order of stuff in Genesis isn't too different to what Cosmology says. The order in which things formed, you know... Light, then ocean, then land, then plants, then animals, then people. If you stretch it over 4.5 billion years instead of 7 days, that's pretty much exactly how it happened.
_________________________ "Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art."
--Konstantin Stanislavisky
#838268 - 06/09/0701:22 AMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: robnunchucks]
Sambo_Flux
old hand
Registered: 14/06/06
Loc: Norf London
Spot on Rob.
Jarle, I like the thing about the moths. Along the same lines, has anyone seen those mice that live in the London Underground tube lines? You can see them under the tracks at stations sometimes, and they're EXACTLY the same colour as the grey bricks / dirt. Evolution in action.
One thing has been bugging me though: what the hell are the predators? In the wild it would be birds of prey, cats, foxes etc. What is there on the tube that's taking all the non-grey ones out? Grey owls? Grey foxes? What, dammit? And why haven't we seen them?
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Emotions become the Waves
Soul is the Ocean
If a quizz is quizzical, what is a test?
#838269 - 06/09/0701:28 AMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: Invader Xan]
robnunchucks
enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/04
Loc: manchester uk
If you stretch it over 4.5 billion years instead of 7 days, that's pretty much exactly how it happened.
lol what dont be rediculus it gets it compleatly wrong the order in the bible was
earth
light
sky
sea
plants
stars, sun, moon
birds and sea creatures
reptiles and land animals
hummans
when it should have been
sky
light
stars
sun
earth
moon
sea
plants
sea creatures
reptiles
land animals (mammels)
birds
hummans
and even if it was correct my point would still stand if you start reading parts of the bible as fictional metafor why shouldn't you read the whole thing as fictional metafor.
why not treat the bible and everything in it as we treat any other book. mobi dick is an excelent book but we dont beleave the charictors in it actualy existed or that it actualy happend.
the fundimentalists take issue because they say if you start saying bits of the bible arn't true you have no way of knowing which bits are right and which are wrong and the entire bible loses any meening as a basis for religion. you are then have to admit that the bible is no diffrent than mobi dick, to kill a mocking bird or 1984. it becomes simply another to be interpreted anyway you want to with no interpritation been any more true than any of the other 500,000 interpritations and no way to tell which of them if any is actualy correct.
essentaly it stops been a source of truth and instead becomes a work of fiction.
i never understood why creationism and evolution clashed so badly. Why cant some religious people beleive that just because their god created things, the things are able to change and adapt?
That is ID
He is the programmer of this all IMO
Edited by faithinfire (06/09/0701:40 AM)
_________________________
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#838272 - 06/09/0702:41 AMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: robnunchucks]
Sambo_Flux
old hand
Registered: 14/06/06
Loc: Norf London
If you consider the universe to be exactly equal to the mind of god, then it follows that they must be as complicated as each other. Or some philosophical bollox.
I think there's possibly 2 versions of ID that can be considered. There's the idea of ID (I think this is what Faith is talking about), which is that an intelligent designer created the universe at the point of the big bang, and designed all the laws of nature (including evolution and survival of the fittest), where life is the natural result the right conditions. I have no problem whatsoever with this idea. However, again it's not science, as it's completely hypothethetical and non-testable. I'll accept it as soon as someone comes up with a workable experiment to test for the existence of a designer, but until then, it can only remain as conjecture.
The other type is the bastardized version that the religious right want to get taught in schools. This version is the idea that the intelligent designer somehow conjured the whole universe into being completely whole, including us. This version, assuming that the time of creation is akin to the biblical creation, IS at adds with evolution, as it completely ignores all the evidence that we evolved over millions of years. This is the one I object to, on the grounds that it's unmitigated guff.
Neither version is scientific, but the first one has merit as a plausible philosophical idea. The 2nd is creationist garbage, and should be ridiculed, outlawed, and cast down amongst the lepers, sodomites, and people who watch Big Brother.
_________________________
My Mind is a Ship
Emotions become the Waves
Soul is the Ocean
If a quizz is quizzical, what is a test?
#838273 - 06/09/0702:54 AMRe: Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
[Re: Sambo_Flux]
Poje
Elusive bearded fire moose
Registered: 02/05/07
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
I dont understand how that second one works. If everything was created at once then humans lived with dinosaurs. Same with creationism, is the time before humans just...ignored?
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