Order of poi moves

hi. I work for a company called Kent Circus School who for the past 15 years have been going around Kent doing circus skills workshops. We are currently developing a key stage 2 curriculum for circus skills (juggling, diablo, devil stick) and this will be piolted on our youth circus. It is based on levels, do a certain number of tricks and get a certificate for level 1 etc. It is not a grading system, just something to aim for, also the levels cannot just be learnt in five minutes, they take dedication and practice. We don't teach poi as standard at the moment but may do someday and it has come to me to write the poi moves. I am not entering into a debate as to whether or not poi should be learnt through a structured system or "free learning" (which is what im sure alot of us have done), save that for another thread.
It is obvious that before learning a 5beat weave you need to learn a 3beat weave first, therefore some moves should probably be learnt before others: this is where the debate starts!
(although I'm not stopping anyone learnigna 5beat before a 3beat-prove me wrong! )
I thought if I post what I have come up with then other peoples feedback can help modify the moves and structure. I dont want this to be my own but a more of a collective effort from the HOP community. here goes (deep breath)

PT= parrallel time
FT=follow time

Level 1

Both hands forwards (FT and PT)
Both hands backwards (FT and PT)
Carries from forwards to backwards
Carries from backwards to forwards
Forwards weave
Backwards weave
Windmill
Butterfly (Forwards and Backwards)
BTH buttefly (at the same time)
BTH butterfly (hands alternating)

Level 2

Turning from forwards weave to backwards weave
Waist wraps (forwards and backwards)
Hip reels (PT and FT)
Shoulder reels (PT and FT)
Basic lock-outs (flowers)
TTN (forwards and backwards)
Opposite shoulder reels
Opposite hip reels
Basic stalls from the butterfly
The Corkscrew
Giant weave
Giant windmill
Buzzsaw (forwards and backwards)
The Fountain

Level 3

Forwards 5beat weave (wrists facing up and curled round)
Backwards 5beat weave (wrists facing up and curled round)
4 beat TTN (forwards and backwards)
BTB weave (forwards and backwards)
Basic arm wraps
Standard airwrap in the wall plane (from clockwise and anticlockwise)
Simultaneous wrist wraps
Simultaneous bicep wraps
Thigh wraps
Calf wraps
Stalling one up, one down
Basic atoms
The weave with one arm straight
Thru-wraps in the weave, off the arms (forwards and backwards)
4 beat windmills
Under the leg

Level 4 (this is where the silliness begins!)

Isolations
-isolated buzzsaw
-isolated forwards weave
-isolated backwards weave
-isolated backwards TTN
Stalling the weave
4-beat hyperloop (any direction)
Buzzsaw weave
Airwraps to wrist stalls
Thows and catches
One tie-up in backwards TTN
BTB waist wraps
BTB TTN (both ways!)
Butterfly weave
Pirouettes with arms at opposites
Pirouettes with arms at opposites with flowers
Under alternating legs for four consecutive beats (from TTN) Anti spin flowers (one hand only)
Stalling one up, one down BTB
Grabbing one poi in TTN
Atomic weave, forwards and backwards

Level 5 (this is a little ridiculous) - i can't do a lot of it

4-beat hyperloops from forwards weave, both ways
4-beat hyperloops from backwards weave, both ways
Inverted airwraps
Extra beats in airwraps/hyperloops
2-beat hyperloops from forwards 5beat weave (all four ways)
Under the leg airwraps
Butterfly hyperloops (butterfloops I believe??)
Isolated waist wraps
Isolated shoulder reels
Isolated alternating carries
Antispin forwards weave
Antispin backwards weave
Antispin flowers, both hands forwards in FT
Antispin flowers, both hands backwards in FT
Simultaneous wrist wraps in the buzzsaw
Simultaneous wrist wraps BTB
Simultaneous wrist wraps BTH
Continuous barrell roles forwards and backwards
Whip catches
7-beat weave forwards and backwards
6-beat backwards TTN (hands must be in FT for this to work)

Level 6???

I am aware that this list ignores both style and largely transitions and levels 5 is probably focused more on my own personal goals. I know very little about atoms or throws and catches for that matterwhich is why they hardly feature.
have i missed anything fundamental?
what moves need to switch levels?

feedback on how to make this better would be greatly appreciated. matt

perhaps a provision for style, grace and movement would be nice?

maybe put basic longarm moves in level one as a preparation for flowers

ummm...

ask arashi?

Hmmm...

I can't do some of the moves in level three, but am able to do some of the moves in levels four and five...

Classing moves as different levels isn't going to be easy. Every person is different. For example, I find fwd antispin weave a lot easier than a 4bt Windmill. But that's just me.

And what's an inverted airwrap?

what about buzz saw fountains?

maybe stalls and wraps a bit earlier as stalls are useful for transitions as are wraps and both are fairly simple to learn but give some beautiful effects

Just a wee suggestion...

but perhaps you could reduce the number of moves in every level to make sure the students get the set moves really well - good timing, planes, movement etc - just to make sure they aren't racing through and trying to learn the moves alone?


Hmmm... yep, maybe Arashi, or PoiBoxII will add their opinions?

Here's my constructive criticism:
Do turning between weaves in level one.
Do butterfly reels in level one, and behind-the-head stuff in level two.
Five-beat wave in level two (although backwards may wait for level three)
Buzzsaws and fountains shouldn't be learned until level three, because you don't do anything else with them until level four.
Throws and catches should probably be moved up to level three.
Past these things, I have very little idea about what any of those moves are.
Hope this helps!

That's a pretty good way to separate it up.

I'd consider splitting it into families tho, weave, butterfly, tangles, throws and so on.

So you have levels within families. This is because people tend to prefer doing a particular family and get way up through the levels. That's why you'll find people who can do stuff in level 4 but not some level 2 things.

Also there's no reason why you can't teach a complete noob throws and tangles first before doing any reels. I mean a club juggler noob doesn't start with 2 clubs, learn a 5 beat weave then progress to juggling 3 clubs.

Just remember that hhow ever you divide it up it's completely arbitry. It's only useful in the context you're using it. So decide what you want to achieve by separating it all before you separate it. Otherwise just group it together.

My and oli were joking the other day saying that you could teach someone poi by saying there are 3 simple rules to poi:

rule 1: the poi should only stay in their plane for a maximum of 3 beats before changing 90 degrees

rule 2: the poi handle should not be in your hands for about 25% of the time

rule 3: the poi should be in a tangled state for about 25% of the time

That's essentially what i've been aiming at with my freestyling recently, it's pretty funny.

m

On a small technicality - I think Level 1 moves "BTH Butterfly" are actually "OTH Buttefly" (Over-the-head) unless you're keeping the hands behind the head for more than one beat...

I'd also scrap level 5 completely allowing for people to discover their own moves (e.g what happens if I combine an isolation with an airwrap?) and introduce more movement theory, plane control and performance guidlines - as there's few things less appealing to the eye than a highly technical spinner who can't perform for poo

I'd recommend that you have to be able to do like 12 out of 15 things, because there's some things that just won't work for some people even though they're fine with the rest. For example, I just can't get btb weaves. No problems with butterflies, but just can't get the weave there. Now I imagine that if I had everything for one level except for 1 or 2 things, I'd get really frustrated...

thanks for the feedback guys, its helped loads!
lectue theatre c - an inverted airwarp (as i see it) is rather than the poi being tugged towards you push them away, try getting someone to stand in front of you when you do an airwrap and get them to rest their hands on top of yours, they will be doing the inverted version.

i know theres a rather alot of moves in each level but this partly to correspond with the difficulty of the other toys (juggling etc) as basic poi moves can be learnt much faster than basic juggling tricks. Birgit, I like the idea of not having to complete the level but just the majority. OTH butterfly makes more sense than what i wrote level 5 was more for my own amusement than actually a stated level, anyone who gets that far has to really want to learn and needs more guidance than teaching. I have started to split the moves into families but only in the later levels, ill try and doit for the earlier ones a bit better.

im still of the opnion that style and grace cannot be really be taught in a structured form. When I get enough feedback ill redo the whole thing to try and accommodate for the general consensus. i expect very few people that i am teaching to work through the levels one by one, but to generally use it as skeleton guide of 'what shall i try and teach them next that would benifit them the most'. thanks again.matt

I agree with something said

turning from forward to backward weave should be level one. I have found when teaching the backwards weave it's easy to get someone to do a forwards then turn to get started on how backwards feels

Wow, I totally learned most of these out of order.

That's an impressive list of moves, just how long are these courses going to run? You don't want to overwhelm your students. I'd scrap levels 4 and 5 or just introduce the concepts and leave it at that.

I think reels should be in lvl 1-2 there are tons of reels and combinations of moves that can just be added together to make massive combos out of normally simple moves.

Piroetts and airplanes should be in lvl 16!

Just looking at the list and I picked out that I have been learning really diverse stuff that you have classed as higher like whip catches and stuff even though I don't know all the other stuff in between. I just see people do stuff and I go 'wow, i wanna learn how to do that'... so i do

Having a structured program is a good idea for basic tricks (all my lessons were pretty much taken from this site and then just expanded from what i saw from others).
Classing tricks in levels is hard, since some people will always find something easier/harder than others.
Hell, I can't get my head around some tricks cos i can only do certain ones in just one direction.

I also think that learning in families of tricks is a pretty good idea, as you're learning similar tricks which may be easier to build on, but that may cause problems in that it might become a little more monotonous for the student (basically what I said in the last paragraph can be ignored as you've already sorted your levels into different families )

when isay that style and grace cant be taught in a structured from what i mean is you cannot write it doen in a list as i have done with the moves, but it is something that is learnt along the way. i think you have to suggest ways in which people can enhance their style but not always expect them to follow your suggestions, rather to look at them as new possibilities so that they can explore their own style.

I always found that the best way to learn about stlye is to watch other spinners.

I'd say be very careful in teaching in this method, as it will mean the students will all focus in getting all the moves right, and become moves orrientated, and you might end up with a class full of people who don't dance or move with the poi. I think it would be a bad idea of presenting students with the list, maybe just keeping it for your own reference, maybe only giving it to them at the end of a level as a checklist. I think you will have to be very disiplined in getting the students to dance and transition, and make sure you emphasise these points when teaching. I understand you need this list for what you are doing, but I think it would be incredibly unproductive to give newbies, who know very little about poi, a big long list of moves to learn, as they will think that this is all their is to it.