Signature style (pissed off rant)

This is not normally like me...
I am really protective of arsn and I was soooo pissed off last night as I watched a young twirler who is admitttedly quite good twirl in front of a crowd, and do arsns exact routine... exact, down to the handstands with the staff etc..

I know this is my ego coming in to play and i will admit that openly but I was a bit taken aback, espically when he turned to me and was saying that he is going to learn "troy poi"
I turned to him and said, " maybe you should learn your own style? that then makes it your signature style"
He kinda looked at me like yeah whatever...

Arsn seems to not be concerned by it, just a bit quiet when the twirler is doing it the rountine

Yeah I know it must be a compliment cause the spinner was saying how great arsn is at poi and stuff but I was kinda steaming because we have been trying for so long to set oursleves apart from the particular styles of the coast, so that we can start a troupe and this spinner is openly saying he is going to be troy... rarararararahhhh 'identity crisis'

The crowd was all around him going "oh your so great," and some of them turned to me and were like "oh troy spins just like that guy" ... I was like, "no troy has spun like that for years, that guy is doing troys routine.."

I think the thing that pissed me off the most is when the spinner turns to another spinner and was all like..." just come down here and copy what you see, the crowd loves it"

arsn taught this spinners friend most of what he knew, so that they may do an exchange with tricks, cause arsn is open with stuff like that and loves to teach and be taught... we have been lucky enough to be taught by people like bluecat, bam bam Kevin and also the fraggles, but it was an exchange not just openly copying other twirlers... (cept with Bluecat cause I mean its not like we can teach the twirly master anything new, he just blew our minds)

I know that moves dont 'belong' to people and thats not what Im on about here, just the guy admitting that he was going to BE TROY... wtf?

I suppose that it gives troy a reason to get even better too...

I also acknowledge that this spinner is good. I would never take that away from him, and he is quite a lovely person, I dont dislike him... I just dont understand...

immitation is the sincerest form of flattery.... even if it is annoying when your little brother follows you round all day repeating what you say

It sounds like Troy has a nack for teaching people or at least demonstrating well if people can follow all the moves and memorise a routine well. perhaps he could start a more yoda like role on your side of the coast. then when more and more people start to do the routine it will not only become known as the troy routine but it will probably annoy the person who stole it in the first place and maybe teach him how annoying it is when someone copies you.

Dont know if thats any good but I hope it helps. freedom of Ideas is just as important as freedom of speech and movement.

Hummm... If it were a definate Show or Performance routine he was ripping off, I think Troy has every right to ask him to not do that again.

Edited for stupidity.

not to do it again flynty ? *grins*

Imitation is one thing, a direct ripoff stealing. No artistic medium I can think of says that one cannot emulating a style of art/performance, and every artisitic medium I can think of looks down upon copying an artistic piece and calling it original.

If the kid lifted a move or two, that would be one thing. But if he's performing for crowds doing Arsn's routine without giving due credit to the source, that could be copyright infringement (if you want to take it that far). Whether or not Arns wants to or not I guess is up to him..... :-\ Good luck guys

As someone who's posted quite a few vids here, which make it even easier to copy styles moves than watching someone live, this is an issue that I've thought about.

Also because I find myself teaching people quite a lot as well, and I find that something which has taken me months to evolve can be taught to someone in 15 mins.

At some point I adopted the attitude that if other people pick your moves/style up, then it's progress for spinning as a whole.

Also, maybe it's a good attitude, as to be possessive could be seen to be implying that you've reached your limits.

ie if someone copies your current style, it doesn't matter because you have the faith that the creativity will continue and, in six months time you'll be way ahead.

There's only been one occasion when I've felt regret about something like this. it was an unusual three ball move which I was very fond of because I'd made it up, and because a few advanced jugglers had asked me how it was done and, despite my best efforts and their high skill level, they'd been unable to get it.

Then one night, at a party, i explained it to someone and they had it in minutes. it was a wierd feeling as I realised that 'my' trick would now be incororated into someone elses routine.

I think the thing that made it worse was that this individual was someone I percieved as being almost devoid of creative potential, but was very technically good at learning moves i.e. he was a 'copier' and very good at it.

Since then I'm still pretty open, but I guess I do think of some of the stuff I come up with as 'personal'- ie I tend not to teach it. But I still generally end up doing it when others are around, partly cos I need the practice to get it solid, partly because, like I said above, i have faith that I'll be doing better stuff in the future.

thanks paddy.. Im just so pissed off cause its like hes trying to pass of arsns work as his own and Arsn has been working on his routine for like 2 years..
GRRRRRRRR

OWD... arsn didnt teach this spinner anything.. he took it all... in saying this Arsn would have been more than happy to teach him should he have asked
I do see what your saying, it kinda bites into you when you have concieved your 'own' move and then teach it, only to see a whole load of others doing it after a while..
I really love your approach OWD you are very fair.

well i thought arsn was awesome! i didn't even see the cartwheel thing cos i was too busy watching arsn and wondering how long it will take me to be that good!!

and you weren't so bad yourself, valura!!

well, yaeh, ok, there's a massive difference between copying or learning a move, or copying someones entire fire spinning routine, right down to their signature finish. I honestly think Arsn should tell this guy that he smells funny.

Really when you think about this young fellow is really ripping himself of.

By copying arsn he's not showing any orginality at all

Arsn's one of the best twirlers i've ever met and a great mate to.

Maybe he'll by like that other guy and break his collar bone doing handstandy cartwheels thingie's . Um sorry out of advice or thoughts ?.

yeah that is true someone has broken their arm trying to copy arsn, but I wouldnt wish it on this guys cause he is quite nice.

never wish that any break their bones.
never think that ya own moves.

twirling is too beautiful to turn black.

(this is a cut and paste job from a belly dancing forum i hope there's no typos)
i have had a lot of matamorphoses pertaining to this matter in my past.
as someone who sort of got in on an art form before it became "big", i have been in the position of having a lot of people outright copy what i do, even to the point of filming me in secret and imitating exactly my choreography and my particular style. {valura, this is just the beginning, this is an issue in every circle of dance and art, so get used to it. i can't tell you how many people in this country are either directly influenced by our style or directly copying us. shoot look at those old sage HOP videos, should we get credit for all the copying there?] there's a fine line between imitation/flattery and outright forgery, to be sure. but in my experience the non-beginners who copy your experessions outright usually fall by the wayside after time. They are like weekend warriors who dabble in performing for a few years before they realise that it is not for them- they aren't in it for the right reasons, usually ego gratification of some kind. the fact that they can't come up with their own flavor of the movements usually shows through in time, because they aren't dancing from the heart. so they move on to the next thing in their lives. i used to find myself getting really peeved when i saw it happen. then i searched my feeelings and usually my emotions got aroused from my own financioal dissatisfactions with my career and feelings of insecutrity, like "man why should they get paid to copy me? why not let ME have that job?" but there's a better way to look at the situation, and i'm glad i usually held myself in check when those feelings cropped up.

the people who are really channeling and coming from a place of joy in their dance stick with it, move past the plagiarism, and continue on to inspire more people to either open their own imagination to dance or copy them. the ones who open up to dance will respect you all the more later when they get beyond the ego flowering of performance newbie-ism and learn how to respect others. and the flat out copiers? they burn out and turn into your biggest fans! we have plenty of people that have at one time or another disrespectfully stolen jobs right out from under us as cheap imitating perfomers, later dropped out of the business, and then gone on to support us and sometimes even appreciate our talents even more.
the only real problem is when you are dealing with large corporations who are turning your talents into their money, like a large circus filming local acts and ripping off the art, for instance. but then that's what lawyers are for, to let the beasts hash it out. seems like usually this stuff comes up between smaller troupes, and i say, let karma resolve the situation, and don't fret yourself too much about it. go on brush your shoulders off

and to quote a friend, hope she doesn't mind, but such great words...an amazing, high profile, and highly influential (AND OFTEN IMITATED) dancer...
"It feels wierd, yes, but is it so important to get credit? You come in this world alone and you die alone, the only one to really impress is yourself. I ´ve always felt that if someone copies you, it´s time to get back to the drawing board and create some more...so it ´s good! It keeps us focused on the primary purpose: to create...

Do your work, and let go of the results... Evil and "darkness" are only the absence of light, not an entity in itself...if you bring light to a situation, you are the powerful entity. Bring it up a notch and shine."
{thanks rachel}

Sometime things like that happen to teach thats all i was trying to say . Maybe he learn some other way.

My heart is with troy over this (remembering how people said i learn't whip work of troy) .( we both laughted it off cause we knew better) but other people just didn't know .

Bender

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never think that ya own moves.

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we dont think that we own moves, nor would I wish anyone to be hurt

thanks arashi thats a lovely post... and I love your spiritual take on that... rachel sounds like a wise woman....

"I've seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants".
- Sir Isaac Newton
arashi, did i say you ROCK?

Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know.
- Michel Eyquem de Montaigne

"I did not have sexual relations with that troy"
-Bender

ahahahahah!
thats a good one..

Valura. I am not certain of this copycat person that you speak of.
What i do know for certain is that you care for try so much it you could explode

Don't worry Valura there only ever going to be one arsn (thats why we love him )

chances are he is probly just trying to learn and using other peoples style until he gets hi own
i dont he any harm in that. but if he keeps doing it then you can tan his hide

I think there's a middle ground. It is okay to learn moves off other people and to do them, but downright copying a routine is wrong. I try to teach what I can, and I often study movies and other people to learn more, but I never copy an actual routine. Whenever I feel myself or someone else is copying too much, I remind them or myself it is important to develope your own style and favourite moves/mannerisms (obviously you try not to be at all condescending when you do this :P).

It's also nice to complement the person you are learning moves off :P.

- Klaymen

i think you are 100% right.
you have the right idea and for once i agree. ok thats scarry

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chances are he is probly just trying to learn and using other peoples style until he gets hi own
i dont he any harm in that. but if he keeps doing it then you can tan his hide

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nope thats not what he is doing
he is doing arsns EXACT routine.

I'd never rip off a routine - It seems like it would actually be harder than making your own up, it would certainly take more time.

I think I'd say something to them, but I have no idea what

Its all very well to say imitation is the highest form of flattery but its also true to say that credit should be given where its due. I cant count the amount of times i've read posts here where someone is thanking some hopper somewhere for a move they sawin real life or on a vid.

So this guy, is he jsut clueless that he has caused upset, does he even know? A quiet word and a point in the right direction might be just the solution...

I agree with Klay. Copying moves and having style rub off on you is pretty much unavoidable. But to copy an exact routine then bloat about doing Troy Poi is taking the mick a little. The quiet word thing might help especially if he's as nice a bloke as you say except for this indescretion (sp?) If you explain that he's hurt your feelings by blankett copying Arsn then maybe he'll stop doing the routine and start to work on his own style?

Good luck lady V

the only time it's cool to completely imitate is Elvis Impersonation. and even then, they have to be wearing pants.
for the children.

ahahaha! nice n dirty their bender, you ain't nuthin' but a hound-dawg-a. (god i'm lame)

- Klay-man

well actualy we all imitate each other.... bit by bit.... i started poi when i saw my collegue(?) do it... wel i immitated her at first... then the girl from the hop teachings... we will immitate then learn our own style...

Hmmm... I'm going to have to agree with Bender. Above all else, what I see here is that Valura cares deeply for Troy.

This is true love, folks. It's a rare and precious thing, so look at it well...and remember.

As for Troy, maybe Troy should try varying his style. He's an amazing spinner. It would be almost impossible to imitate him if he was just jamming/improvising. You'd sooner be able to imitate Picasso doing a sketch or Bill Cosby doing a stand-up routine.

Anyone can copy a Picasso with enough training. Anyone can deliver a Cosby routine. But only the true artist can improvise like the true artist.

ok, so i haven't read everyone's reply yet, so i apologize if this is a repeat, but here's my thoughts.

you have every right to be upset valura. there's a difference between using a few of the same moves, and using the exact same routine. i think to even be debating this is an insult to art of poi. poi is an artform, it's a dance, just like any other dance. if this were ballet we were discussing, and someone copied the exact ballet routine of someone, there would be no question that it is wrong. a choreographer owns the rights to his/her dance routine, and to copy it would be wrong and illegal. it's plagarism. poi and staff deserve just as much respect as any other art form, and with that includes respect for someone's routine.

I gotta say, I think it would probably bug me for a while if I made a routine and someone bit the whole thing down to the tiniest flourish, but as some people have already said, they're just cheating themselves. They're halting they're creativity and leaving it to others to do all the fun expressive stuff. Eventually they'll just realize that its not fun cuz all they know how to do is premade routines thy mean nothing to them and they'll give up and leave...
so just try to enjoy the attention someone paid to your routine, be flattered that they liked it enough to actually learn it, and don't be too mad cuz u will continue and succeed on this path and they wont......