Firebreathing - A Warning!

well i'm going off of the msds sheets for ethanol/ethyl alcohol as the sheet for rum.
also i'm sorry if i got defensive easily. i'm justa moody scorpio, and a lot of emotion comes along with the package. it's not always the best thing, as you can see. sorry if i sound like a broken record- i write stream of consciousness, and sometimes i repeat myself.
i know that the fuel affected me because i have a predisposition to the toxin weakness. my point is that i am not the only one like this, and that i felt like when myself, and others like me, looked into the list of fuel options that you are educating people with, (thank you for your work), the possibility of alcohol was less than available. it was shut down emphatically. and my point is, alcohol can be used safely if you follow some guidelines, so why not adress those people's concerns with the relevant information?and i meant by "taught" that, if you provide the information on how to do something, then you are teaching. but since you, pele, are teaching that alcohol is so horrible, i thought that all the others were following your teaching. i've personally never come across another group of people that were so against ethyl alcohol. in fact it is what most experienced fire folks that i know use. so i assumed that it was due to your teachings that i met so much resistance. sorry if i assumed too much. again, don't use it if you don't want to. but please stop telling me that i'm stupid-you're still telling me that, even after a lot of people on this site have thanked me for tryying to press the non toxic issue. i am just working with different parameters than you.
also i think that there has been a lot of misconception built around the vapor thing, read back over what i said and see if you see what i mean. because the vapor from ethyl alcohol is not dangerous. the aspirateds fuels are. and the msds sheets i read about paraffin said vapor harmful or fatal. i can't remember which ones exactly. maybe they were wrong. but products vary, and at least some of them have deadly vapor! that's BAD.
that means that it is way easier to get chemical pneumonia with kero, because you'd have to breathe aspirated fuel to get it from ethanol, and no other way. i simply feel that alcohol needs to be put out there as an option for those with predisposition to get real sick when they put kero in their mouth. along with the fuels such as kero, that have their own dangers, and deadly aspects. every fuel is deadly, and all of them fry faces. so let people make their own choice!
and yes, i'm real excited about the biodiesel thing. but, just be careful! a lot of biodiesels have methanol in them, which is severely severely bad. be sure to warn people about that, so they don't just buy any old biodiesel. from what i understand, tho, big 20-30 foot type flames aren't possible with soybeans either, so i'm not getting too excited yet

i don't really want to keep beating the dead horse either. the only reason i keep up with the finer issues is that it seems it's the only way i can get you guys to acknowledge that it's at least valid, and educate from there. again thank you.

also i just read your thing over pele. i don't want to preach about "my" side. i'm trying to adress what i thought was something wrong. go to renegade, and see how they handle doing Fire Breathing teaching. i think it is great how they talk about the pros and cons of each fuel, and the dangers that each one presents to the body also. now, that is what i hope to achieve here, that you put ALL the information out there that you can, and let people decide. now i saw that the way to do this was blocked- because you have erroneouos information about ethyl alcohol, and it's dangers as compared to kero. so now i'm trying to overcome that blockage. now, even if everything i am saying about vapor/chemical pneumonia is wrong, shouldn't you still put forth the information to people that rum is a choice? out of responsibility? i mean what if all this time, you've been misinformed, and the people who say that rum is safer are right? can you live with that? because things are connected. when you teach, you are connected karmically. i feel like *I* am the one trying to break dowm the dogma here, not the other way around! kero is poisonous. highly. alcohol is too. slightly. you drink a pint of kero and i'll drink a pint of alcohol. you breathe parrafin vapours and i'll breathe rum vapours. both ways, you're gonna drop, and i'll just be smashed.

hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for the concern..
I'm feeling quite a bit better now, and hopefully the antibiotics will keep working.

I don't feel that i know enough to be a part of the whole 'which fuel' disscusion, but i hope something useful comes out of it to reduce the number of people who end up hurt. Although i guess there will always be huge risks involved, no matter which fuel is being used. I s'pose then all you can really do is inform people of the risks, so they do not underestimate them, as i seemingly did.

yeah good to hear f-boy!
we were gettin' concerned like how the autobots did when Opitimus Prime got his ass kicked in the movie.

arashi,
I do not endorse trying fire-anything at all because it is dangerous. If people choose to do this, then I am presenting them with the safest options, not all the options, if I were to do that I would also be putting rubbing alcohol and gasolene on the list as viable. I will not. What I choose to do is stupid and dangerous, and I know this (even poi). I don't endorse it to anyone. I express my opinions when asked. I do not teach fire and will not. I share with those who have already made their choice without my influence. Therefore, my karma is fine.
I ***know*** my information is not erroneous. I have talked to enough well-educated people in many chemically and fire based fields to know better.
You keep contradicting yourself, between posts in this thread and between threads. You are presenting hypotheticals which have no bearing currently in the world of fire. You can not decide if it is technique and teaching (in which case biodiesel will work fine) or if it is all about toxicity, in which case *no* fuel is safe, of if it is about the fuel itself (ie: density and composition) in which case thin is in. You have presented contradicting arguements all over this site about these issues. They all are important. In the end, I feel no one should be Fire Breathing. We know this is not going to happen. If you feel so uncomfortable with it, then stop arashi. That is the point. Preaching is not going to do anything, and your mode of preaching is really making you come out looking uninformed and indecisive.

And for the record, may I remind you (or post the email here?), I am the one who told you to post your plight here, and I am the one who told you where to go. So **do not** go accuse me of trying to limit perspective and options. There is your biggest contradiction.

This is my last post on this. It is getting to personal for me.

Falloutboy...happy to see you doing so well! You will be up and among the land of the healthy breathing in no time! Did they give you horse pills for meds or the yummy pink bubble gum flavoured liquid!?

I'd like to start by saying a happy h@llz yeah to fallout boy, Good to hear you'll be back and walkin around normal soon. You have the most out of everyone on this topic to teach.

As for pele and arashi, I never thought I'd say this but you two sound like children arguing over a toy! Gesah!! Get over it all fuel is bad, Stuckin down tailpipe fumes is prolly more healthy then anything that's been discussed here so far. The answer to a healthy fireball isn't in what type of fuel it's in the how... Think about it use alittle creativity and think of ways of creating the same effect without your mouth... I have the answer but while I'm totally possitive it's safe malcom has asked me not to disclose it to anyone.

well, i'm sorry that it has gotten too personal. maybe you are more responsible for that than you are aware of. i certainly never wanted to get 'personal'- in fact i have been self effacing, apologetic for my shortcomings, even to the point of self derision, to try and keep you from getting defensive, to open up, and start talking rather than this bitching match! you are still just going through and categorically denying me. my points are still derided, my intelligence questionend,i've been INSULTED(by your boyfriend, who no doubt has a lot of his opinions from talking to you), shut down, you've EVEN tried (rather erroneously) pschoanalyzing my motives down to 'post traumatic stress', and then that whole business about trying to get people to "step up and defend" me. JEEEZ! EVEERYTHING WITH YOU IS ABOUT WHO IS WRONG(me) AND WHO IS RIGHT(you). i'm trying to get above that. it's still not working. i'm pretty sick of it myself, esp. the self effacing part. i wonder if i shouldn't have been sterner, tried going tit for tat- does that work?
i know i'm contradicting myself, slightly, about which fuel to use! because there is no truth, no absolute! all along i've simply been trying to open your mind to other possibilities, other options, other TRUTHS. you told me if i wanted to try get you to list alcohol as a fuel for those who are concerned with toxins, to take it here.to the board. so i did, and have got nothing but shit! and walls! i can totally respect your decision not to post anymore. i am deliberately trying to open you up, and it's getting a little difficult. just know that i have NOOOOO hard feelings here. i have just been emphatic because i felt the situation needed it. and i still believe that you are karmically involved. did you go to the renegade website, see their fuel and Fire Breathing section? that's what i call karma free! and near as i can tell, they mostly endorse lamp oil. that's fine! i think it's okay to endorse something that you believe in. but i don't think it's okay to shut information out when you don't agree with it. that's what happened to aristotle. not that i'm aristotle here! the earth is flat, everybody knows that, now...
i know we must agree to disagree. i've known it would end that way for a while now. but i'm still just trying to help you out with your people skills. heck, i'll sum it up for you. i'm an a-hole, who's been trying to pester you, for no reason other than some boring psycho-drama because he got fuel poisoning... it seems like that's the way you see it! so be it! but is that the way things should go in a community of humans? i mean rather than spend all that time projecting on to me, couldn't we just talk? try it sometime!

btw, for those of you still interested in info(rozi)...been looking up the msds sheets more(thank god for debating!) and found out more.
having kero or lamp oil in your STOMACH (much less your mouth)can cause chemical pneumonia. the vapors rise up out of your stomach and enter your lungs. puking is bad for the same reason, it exposes your lungs to even more vapor than just letting it stay there. (drink whipping cream, or high fat something!) so apparently the vapors are even more dangerous than the poisonous nature of most kero, else they would say go ahead and puke it up. so don't inhale very much when you have lamp oil or kero in your mouth. and just for advocacy's sake- the vapors from ethanol are not dangerous, at least b4 fire. puke away, drink away, we all know that...but know that Fire Breathing with alcohol is MUCH more dangerous, once it leaves your mouth and hits the flame. so choose wisely! which is more important, your fear of getting burned, or your fear of poisoning? you decide!!!!
and don't aspirate ANY kind of particulated fuel, or water, or anything! aspirate means to inhale, to breathe in. look it up! so when you blow out, stay away from that cloud of particles! hopefully it's a BIG cloud! long live fire!

this message has been brought to you by your friendly neighborhood dark elvin prince devil's advocate. PEACE!!!!!

This is the MSDS for water. There is an object lesson in this, but I won't insult your intelligence by telling you what it is:

NTP CHEMICAL REPOSITORY (RADIAN CORPORATION, AUGUST 29, 1991)
WATER

-IDENTIFIERS
===========

*CATALOG ID NUMBER: 001573

*CAS NUMBER: 7732-18-5

*BASE CHEMICAL NAME: WATER

*PRIMARY NAME: WATER

*CHEMICAL FORMULA: H2O

*STRUCTURAL FORMULA: H2O

*WLN: QH

*SYNONYMS:
DIHYDROGEN OXIDE
WATER, DISTILLED
ICE
STEAM
SNOW
HYDROGEN OXIDE

-PHYSICAL CHEMICAL DATA
======================

*PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: LITERATURE: Clear colorless liquid
REPOSITORY: Clear colorless liquid

*MOLECULAR WEIGHT: 18.02

*SPECIFIC GRAVITY: 0.997 @ 25/4 C [031]

*DENSITY: 0.995 g/mL @ 32 C [205]

*MP (DEG C): Not available

*BP (DEG C): 90 C @ 525.97 mm Hg [205]

*SOLUBILITIES:
WATER : >=100 mg/mL @ 19 C (RAD)

DMSO : >=100 mg/mL @ 19 C (RAD)

95% ETHANOL : >=100 mg/mL @ 19 C (RAD)

METHANOL : Not available

ACETONE : >=100 mg/mL @ 19 C (RAD)

TOLUENE : Not available

OTHER SOLVENTS: Not available

*VOLATILITY:
Vapor pressure: 23.756 mm Hg @ 25.0 C [205]
Vapor density : >1 [058]

*FLAMMABILITY(FLASH POINT):
Flash point data for this chemical are not available; however, it is nonflammable. Fires involving this material can be controlled with a dry chemical, carbon dioxide or Halon extinguisher. A water spray may also be used [058].

*UEL: Not available LEL: Not available

*REACTIVITY: Not available

*STABILITY:
This chemical is stable under normal laboratory conditions [058]. Solutions of this chemical in water, DMSO, 95% ethanol or acetone should be stable for 24 hours under normal laboratory conditions (RAD).

*OTHER PHYSICAL DATA:
Density: 0.958 g/mL @ 100 C [205]
Boiling point: 80 C @ 355.40 mm Hg; 95 C @ 634.06 mm Hg [205]
Odorless [043,058,062,295]
Tasteless [043,295]
Weak electrolyte [062]
Dipole moment: 1.76 @ 25 C (in benzene) [031]; 1.86 @ 25 C (in dioxane) [031]
Surface tension: 75.83 dynes/cm @ 0 C; 72.88 dynes/cm @ 20 C [205]
Refractive index: 1.33395 @ 0 C; 1.33300 @ 20 C; 1.33194 @ 30 C [205]
Triple point: 273.16 K @ 4.6 mm Hg [062]
Critical temperature: 374.2 C [031]
Critical pressure: 218 atmospheres [031]
Dielectric constant: 87.74 @ 0 C [031,205]; 80.10 @ 20 C [205]; 76.55 @ 30 C
[205]
Latent heat of condensation: 540 cal/g [043]
Bulk density: 8.337 lbs/gal (62.3 lb/cu ft) [043]
Surface tension: 73 dynes/cm @ 20 C [043]
Evaporation rate (n-butyl acetate=1): 0.4 [043]
Viscosity: 0.01002 poise @ 20 C [043,062]
Latent heat of fusion: 80 cal/g [043]

-TOXICITY
========

*NIOSH REGISTRY NUMBER: ZC0110000

*TOXICITY:
typ. dose mode specie amount units other
LD50 ipr mus 190 gm/kg
LD50 ivn mus 25 gm/kg
LDLo ivn rbt 13 gm/kg
LDLo orl cat 320 gm/kg
LDLo orl dog 629 gm/kg
LDLo orl gpg 429 gm/kg
TDLo orl inf 333 gm/kg
TDLo orl man 42.86 gm/kg
LDLo orl rbt 368 gm/kg
LDLo rec rbt 450 gm/kg
LDLo rec wmn 180 gm/kg/28H

*AQTX/TLM96: Not available

*SAX TOXICITY EVALUATION:
THR: Human systemic effects by ingestion of very large amounts. Human and
experimental death reported by various routes at sufficiently large
doses.

*CARCINOGENICITY: Not available

*MUTATION DATA:
test lowest dose | test lowest dose
----------- ----------------- | ----------- -----------------
Not available |

*TERATOGENICITY: Not available

*STANDARDS, REGULATIONS & RECOMMENDATIONS:
OSHA: None
ACGIH: None
NIOSH Criteria Document: None
NFPA Hazard Rating: Health (H): None
Flammability (F): None
Reactivity (R): None

*OTHER TOXICITY DATA:
Status: EPA Genetox Program 1988, Inconclusive: B subtilis rec assay
EPA TSCA Chemical Inventory, 1986
Meets criteria for proposed OSHA Medical Records Rule

-OTHER DATA (Regulatory)
=======================

*PROPER SHIPPING NAME (IATA): Not restricted

*UN/ID NUMBER:

*HAZARD CLASS: SUBSIDIARY RISK: PACKING GROUP:

*LABELS REQUIRED:

*PACKAGING: PASSENGER: PKG. INSTR.: MAXIMUM QUANTITY:
CARGO : PKG. INSTR.: MAXIMUM QUANTITY:

*SPECIAL PROVISIONS:

*USES:
This compound is used as a solvent, suspending agent, industrial coolant, diluent, moderator in nuclear reactors, nutrient substance and power source. It is also used in beer and carbonated beverages, hydration of lime, paper coatings, textile processing, debarking logs, filtration, washing and scouring, sulfur mining, hydrolysis, Portland cement, hydraulic systems, steam generation and in the food industry.

*COMMENTS: Not available

-HANDLING PROCEDURES
===================

*ACUTE/CHRONIC HAZARDS:
Information concerning acute hazards of this chemical is not available.

*MINIMUM PROTECTIVE CLOTHING: Not available

*RECOMMENDED GLOVE MATERIALS:
Permeation Test Results For The Neat (Undiluted) Chemical:

The permeation test results for the neat (undiluted) chemical are given below. The breakthrough times of this chemical are given for each glove type tested. The table is a presentation of actual test results, not specific recommendations or suggestions. Avoid glove types which exhibit breakthrough times of less than the anticipated task time plus an adequate safety factor. If this chemical makes direct contact with your glove, or if a tear, puncture or hole develops, replace them at once.

Glove Type Model Number Thickness Breakthrough Time
Butyl rubber North B-161 0.71 mm 480 min
Neoprene Edmont 29-870 0.48 mm 480 min
Viton North F-091 0.25 mm 480 min
Unknown North Silvershield 0.10 mm 480 min

*RECOMMENDED RESPIRATOR:
Where the neat test chemical is weighed and diluted, wear a NIOSH-approved half face respirator equipped with an organic vapor/acid gas cartridge (specific for organic vapors, HCl, acid gas and SO2) with a dust/mist filter.

*OTHER: Not available

*STORAGE PRECAUTIONS:
You should store this material at ambient temperatures.

*SPILLS AND LEAKAGE:
If you should spill this chemical, use absorbent paper to pick up all liquid spill material. Seal the absorbent paper, as well as any of your clothing which may be contaminated, in a vapor-tight plastic bag for eventual disposal. Wash any surfaces you may have contaminated with a soap and water solution. Do not reenter the contaminated area until the Safety Officer (or other responsible person) has verified that the area has been properly cleaned.

*DISPOSAL AND WASTE TREATMENT: Not available

-EMERGENCY PROCEDURES
====================

*SKIN CONTACT:
IMMEDIATELY flood affected skin with water while removing and isolating all contaminated clothing. Gently wash all affected skin areas thoroughly with soap and water.
If symptoms such as redness or irritation develop, IMMEDIATELY call a physician and be prepared to transport the victim to a hospital for treatment.

*INHALATION:
IMMEDIATELY leave the contaminated area; take deep breaths of fresh air. If symptoms (such as wheezing, coughing, shortness of breath, or burning in the mouth, throat, or chest) develop, call a physician and be prepared to transport the victim to a hospital.
Provide proper respiratory protection to rescuers entering an unknown atmosphere. Whenever possible, Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA) should be used; if not available, use a level of protection greater than or equal to that advised under Respirator Recommendation.

*EYE CONTACT:
First check the victim for contact lenses and remove if present. Flush victim's eyes with water or normal saline solution for 20 to 30 minutes while simultaneously calling a hospital or poison control center.
Do not put any ointments, oils, or medication in the victim's eyes without specific instructions from a physician.
If symptoms (such as redness or irritation) develop, immediately transport the victim to a hospital.

*INGESTION:
DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. If the victim is conscious and not convulsing, give 1 or 2 glasses of water to dilute the chemical and IMMEDIATELY call a hospital or poison control center. Be prepared to transport the victim to a hospital if advised by a physician.
If the victim is convulsing or unconscious, do not give anything by mouth, ensure that the victim's airway is open and lay the victim on his/her side with the head lower than the body. DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. IMMEDIATELY transport the victim to a hospital.

*SYMPTOMS:
Symptoms of exposure to this compound via eye contact include edema of the corneal stroma and epithelium (which increases sensitivity to glare) [099]. Other symptoms of exposure include headache and vomiting which may be followed by confusion, disorientation and restlessness progressing to convulsions and coma. It may also cause stupor [295]. It has reportedly caused tremors and muscle contraction or spasticity. In infants it may cause convulsions, effect on seizure threshold, hypermotility, diarrhea and increased body temperature [015]. It may also cause fever [043].
Symptoms of exposure in animals include hemolysis with or without anemia, convulsions and effect on seizure threshold [015].

-SOURCES
=======

*SOURCES:
[015] Lewis, R.J., Sr. and R.L. Tatken, Eds. Registry of Toxic Effects
of Chemical Substances. On-line Ed. National Institute for
Occupational Safety and Health. Cincinnati, OH. ZC0110000.
February 14, 1989.

[017] Weast, R.C., M.J. Astle, and W.H. Beyer, Eds. CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. 67th Ed. CRC Press, Inc. Boca Raton,
FL. 1986. p. B-94, #h63.

[031] Windholz, M., Ed. The Merck Index. 10th Ed. Merck and Co.
Rahway, NJ. 1983. p. 1441, #9853.

[038] Stull, D.R. Vapor pressure of pure substances: Organic Compounds.
Industrial and Engineering Chem. 39(4):517-550. 1947. p. 545.

[043] Sax, N.I. and Richard J. Lewis, Sr. Dangerous Properties of Industrial
Materials. 7th Ed. Van Nostrand Reinhold. New York. 1989.
Vol. III, p. 3487, #WAT259.

[058] Information Handling Services. Material Safety Data Sheets
Service. Microfiche Ed. Bimonthly Updates. February/March 1989.
#2606-586, A-13; #8362-001, F-13.

[062] Sax, N.I. and R.J. Lewis Sr., Eds. Hawley's Condensed Chemical
Dictionary. 11th Ed. Van Nostrand Reinhold. New York. 1987.
p. 1232.

[082] U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Toxic Substances.
Toxic Substances Control Act Chemical Substance Inventory: 1985
Edition. 5 Vols. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
Washington, D.C. January 1986. Listed.

[099] Grant, W. Morton, M.D. Toxicology of the Eye. 3rd Ed. Charles
C. Thomas, Publisher. Springfield, IL. 1986. pp. 982-983.

[110] Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Environmental Mutagen Information
Center (EMIC), Bibliographic Data Base. Oak Ridge National
Laboratory. Oak Ridge, TN. Listed.

[120] Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Environmental Teratogen Information
Center (ETIC), Bibliographic Data Base. Oak Ridge National
Laboratory. Oak Ridge, TN. Listed.

[205] Dean, John A., Ed. Lange's Handbook of Chemistry. 13th Ed.
McGraw-Hill Book Company. New York. 1985. pp. 10-26, 10-54,
10-91, 10-99.

[275] Aldrich Chemical Company. Aldrich Catalog/Handbook of Fine
Chemical. Aldrich Chemical Co., Inc. Milwaukee, WI.
1988. p. 1540, #19,529-4.

[295] Reynolds, James E.F., Ed. Martindale The Extra Pharmacopoeia. 28th Ed.
The Pharmaceutical Press. London. 1982. pp. 1669-1670.

[455] The Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain. The Pharmaceutical Codex.
11th Edition. The Pharmaceutical Press. London. 1979. pp. 991-992.

[610] Clansky, Kenneth B., Ed. Suspect Chemicals Sourcebook: A Guide to
Industrial Chemicals Covered Under Major Federal Regulatory and
Advisory Programs. Roytech Publications, Inc. Burlingame, CA.
1990. Not listed.

[620] United States National Toxicology Program. Chemical Status Report.
NTP Chemtrack System. Research Triangle Park, NC. November 6, 1990.
Not listed.

-------------------------------------------------------------

[ 19 May 2002, 12:36: Message edited by: MikeGinny ]

Knagi...I am insulted. Two posts and I sound like a child? Thanks. I appreciate that after all the help I have given, thanks alot.

Mike, I love that! There is also a petition that people sign to get DiHydrogenOxide banned for it being so contaminating. To the illeducated, I can understand it looks pretty deadly however, it is funny as hell to me! Thanks.

For those interested, from my friend in the science department at Cornell University, for whatever you might be looking for....

MSDS.PDC.Cornell.EDU/ISSEARCH/MSDSSRCH.HTM

[ 19 May 2002, 14:00: Message edited by: Pele ]

Hi Mike, lol, yeah too much water can kill you. However, with kero, I was under the impression that one of the health risks was associated with inhaling the fine particles (2.5 microns) that are given off during incomplete burning. I suppose the question is, would a fuel with a lower flash point (like white gas) burn hotter and leave less particles in the air?

Also, while were talikng fuels. Some fuels like firewater are reputed to smell nice after burning. Would this indicate aromatic hydrocarbons in the fuel, which I have always believed to be rather dangerous? Thanks

Love yea sis, kinda thought you'd take more of an afence of me comparing Fire Breathing to sucking on a tailpipe.

Off to make some water fires and put them out with more water. Then buy a new heavy duty gasmask befor it rains again!

I'm not trying to say that kero is safe and that we should swim and bathe in it naked and have huge parties where we drink it and inhale its vapors into our lungs (although, come to think of it, we do do that, don't we? )

All I'm trying to say is that an MSDS is to be taken with a grain of salt. No doubt kero and naptha are nasty things that aren't very good for you.

Someone on another section recommended vegetable oil. If it works, it might be better for you.