Coloured Flames FAQ (First draft)

I asked my art teacher a while back to see a glaze catalog becasue I heard somewhere that many of the chemicals used are used in glazes. Sure enough most of the chemicals were in there. Go online and do a search for a glaze or pottery retailer, someone huge. They'd sell the chemicals. They come in 1 pound bags for pretty cheap.


-Hope it helps

uhhhh, maybe im missing something, but is it good to be igniting someting that kills roaches? (they can live in microwaves)

breathing it cant be healthy...

i tried green and it's nice... though the meth and the boric acid won't mix very well...

A few corrections are in order here...

Methylated spirits (meths) and denatured alcohol are the same thing. Usage varies by locality, much like kerosene/paraffin.

The stuff is basically grain (ethyl) alcohol (yeah, the same stuff you make punch and jello shooters with) with just enough wood (methyl) alcohol to make it too poisonous to drink.

This is the same stuff that is used in a bunsen burner or an alcohol camp stove.

These alcohols burn much *colder* than either kero or white gas, not hotter.

The fumes/vapors, while toxic, are less so than then kero or white gas. This is *before* you add the chemicals. Afters, all bets are off...

The biggest danger (unsaid above) is that before you add chemicals, alcohol/meth burns with a clear, almost invisible flame. Most alcohol burns are caused because nobody saw the flame. Be particularly careful arround your fuel dump.

For some reason kevlar wicks don't seem to work so well with alcohol. This is one case where you are better served with plain cotton, either denim or terry-towel.

Personally, the only chemcial I've ever used is boric acid, and I've never had any troubles getting a rather briliant green flame. You just need to mix in as much power as will dissolve.

Now, some questions... Does anyone know where to get denatured alcohol in the US for less than $11/gallon or boric acid for less than $3.50/lb? These are the best prices I've been able to find in local retail stores.

-p.

We (Ice-E FyreStorm) have been doing alot of recearch into this topic, and are in a phase where we are trying stuff out (wish us luck). Stevo (<-you'll meet him soon enuf) and i will then complile the data we gather with ALL the saftey and hazzard data, as well as saturation points, into a comprehensive document of what works and what does not, with a list of the best fuels to use, so sometime before the end of May I'll post the info here!

EDIT:
okay so we're a little behind the schedule... I'll post as soon as we have gotten round to finnishing it!

Hey y'all...

In a fit of boredom at work I took 4 photos of coloured flames while my class was doing a 'flame test' lab. It shows the colors when burning in a blue bunsen burner.

Dunno if we want to put them anywhere or anything but I thought I'd contribue to the massive colored flame encyclopedia. A photo being worth a thousand posts and all.

I never figured out how to link to photos in my own gallery but my gallery is here....

My Gallery...

Leave it to an old man to not know how to use the internet

EDIT - bah, HoP's gallerys don't allow direct linking.

Lithium Chloride


Sodium Chloride


Strontium Chloride


Copper Sulfate

Hey guys..

Anyone in the UK managed to get any of the chemicals to work please?
Drop me a line if u have.

Ive managed to get hold of some potassium chloride in tablet form.. crushed it and drowned it in meths.. so far not having much luck in getting the powder to dissolve..

Maybe something to do with the tablets known as Slow-K but got it from pharmacy/chemist.

Ive tried getting hold of the other chems but no joy
Any ideas please guys?

Thanks very much

Mr D,

Gently heat the suspension (and I mean gently using a desk lamp) with the lid on should result in a nice solution.

With compounds such copper II sulphate I dissolve the compound in a small amount of water first and then the alcohol. I like copper II suulphate as flame is much bluer than boric acid green.

As for safety all metal chlorides produce hydrogen chloride gas when burnt. This gas turns to hydrochloric acid when it comes in contact with water i.e. mucus of the the nose, lung and saliva. Metal carbonate alternatives are safey. However, if spinning outside with a gentle breeze should reduce this risk to a minium - when I teach flame testing at school I have a window open and let my students use plastic atomisers to spray the colured flame mixtures - no deaths as yet

Solubility is the key with these salts, and here's a (somewhat) simplistic explaination.

This is a measure of how easy it is for the solvent (Ethanol, meths, kero or whatever) to dissolve up an amount of the metal salt. The way it dissolves it is by separating the two halves, the metal (Lithium, potassium etc), for the counter ion (Carbonate, acetate, chloride).

As a rule, the more polar your solvent, the easier it will be for it to dissolve your salt. Solvents are normally just chains of hydrogen and carbon, with other things like hydroxide groups (Alcohols), acetyl groups (ethers) etc added to them. Kerosene has non of these groups on it, so it's really polar. That's why you can't use it for the commercially available salts. Ethanol is ideal, as it is easily available and has quite a high polarity. You should be able to search on the internet for polarities of solvents. If you find a particularly good one though, a) make sure it's safe, as some are HIGHLY toxic, and b) make sure it actually burns, and at what temperature.

On the salts front, generally, the size match in two ions (metal and other) is what determines how easily they will dissolve. The bigger the difference in size, the easier to dissolve. Lithium Chloride therefore, will be quite difficult to dissolve, in comparison to Lithium acetate. also, if the counterion has alkyl chains (carbon and hydrogen chains), then that'll aid solubility in less polar solvents. These are usually quite difficult to get hold of though, and are usually only available to chemists (not Pharmacists, the other kind).

I've rambled too long now, and I hope this has been of use. If you need to know anything else, let me know through this thread or a message, and I'll see if I can help.

Paul

Gelfling. Do you seriously heat these things in a sealed container? I wouldn't advise anyone do this, as some of the solvent will turn to gas, and the pressure in the system will cause the vessel to explode.

If anyone want to see the injuries from this type of accident, I've got a few scars on my arm I could show you.

Good info is worth repeating.

My motto, and I'm sticking to it

Ducky - see method for heating using a desk light - to clarify I'm talking about temperatures under 50 degrees centigrade for no more than ten minutes in a plastic container (used for duty free gin as the alcohol does not degrade this sort of plastic).

"...the cancer caused by the inhalation of those chemicals would take a few years to manifest..." by which time they will never be able to link me as the cause - Mwa ha ha (that'll teach them for not completing their work). Seriously though, the quantities used and the exposure time are ridiculously small. In the UK any school experiements are assassed by two inpendant safety organisations: COSHH (control of substances hazardous to health) and CLEAPSS (Consortium of Local Education Authorities for the Provision of Science Services) so whatever I do ends up being risk assessed at least 4 times once by myself, once by my lab techs and once by each of these organisations.

Sorry. It wasn't clear from your post. I don't think I've ever heated anything with a desk light (I'm not sure I even know what one is). It's probably my job talking. When I heat things, I do it with a paint stripper, and industrial stregnth glassware. I wouldn't advise anyone else to do this however. I generally know what I'm doing in those sorts of situations.

I'm guessing that you've never incubated ant eggs then nor bamboo seeds. Simply shine the lamp onto the bottle - in summer dissolve near a sunny window - yah greenhouse effect

Amazing what you can find online

NYC, this sound about right?


Colored Fire / Star Mixtures

The following compositions can be burned loose, in a small pile to produce a colored flame.
They can also be made into "Stars". Stars are solid chunks of pyrotechnic compositions that are designed to either burn in various bright colors, or produce an effect such as glitter, streamer/tail, etc. while traveling through the air. Stars are the basis of Aerial Shells that paint the sky during firework displays. To make any of the following compositions into Stars, simply add a little water to them until the mixture has the consistency of cookie dough. Once in this form, the composition can be pressed or rolled into small pellets and dried. Once the pellets have thoroughly dried and become hard, they are known as 'Stars'. Never force dry pyrotechnic compositions with heat. Always dry them in the open air and in the shade. Depending on the type of composition and temperature/humidity,
drying times for a batch of stars can take from about 3 to 7 days.


Double Neon Blue
Potassium Perchlorate
127.6 g
Copper Carbonate
25.8 g
Parlon
27.6 g
Dextrin
8.6 g
Red Gum
19.0 g

Purple
Potassium Perchlorate
122.6 g
Copper Carbonate
14.8 g
Strontium Carbonate
10.0 g
Parlon
24.8 g
Dextrin
18.2 g
Red Gum
19.0 g

Pink
Potassium Perchlorate
140.0 g
Strontium Carbonate
30.0 g
Dextrin
8.0 g
Charcoal
4.0 g
Red Gum
18.0 g

Lemon Lime Green
Potassium Perchlorate
94.4 g
Barium Nitrate
56.6 g
Strontium Carbonate
10.0 g
Parlon
9.4 g
Dextrin
10.0 g
Red Gum
28.4 g

White
Potassium Nitrate
140.0 g
Antimony Sulfide
30.0 g
Sulfur
14.0 g
Dextrin
7.5 g

Electric Orange
Potassium Perchlorate
106.0 g
Calcium Carbonate
28.0 g
Magnalium
12.0 g
Parlon
28.0 g
Dextrin
8.0 g
Red Gum
18.0 g

This is the most intense pumpkin orange you'll ever see.
'Electric' colors are much brighter and vibrant than normal mixtures. This is due to the presence of a metal in the mixture (usually Magnalium or Aluminum). The burning metal dramatically increases the flame temperature and also the visible luminous output.

Electric Magenta
Potassium Perchlorate
16.0 g
Strontium Nitrate
76.0 g
Charcoal
10.0 g
Sulfur
10.0 g
Magnalium
24.0 g
Copper Carbonate
20.0 g
Parlon
36.0 g
Dextrin
8.0 g

This is a breathtaking color, producing an absolutely intense magenta color.
'Electric' colors are much brighter and vibrant than normal mixtures. This is due to the presence of a metal in the mixture (usually Magnalium or Aluminum). The burning metal dramatically increases the flame temperature and also the visible luminous output.

Electric Red
Potassium Perchlorate
106.0 g
Strontium Carbonate
28.0 g
Magnalium
12.0 g
Parlon
28.0 g
Dextrin
8.0 g
Red Gum
18.0 g

Electric Yellow
Potassium Perchlorate
90.0 g
Cryolite
26.0 g
Magnalium
60.0 g
PVC
10.0 g
Charcoal
4.0 g
Dextrin
10.0 g

Electric Green
Potassium Perchlorate
58.0 g
Barium Nitrate
46.0 g
Barium Carbonate
28.0 g
Magnalium
22.0 g
Parlon
28.0 g
Red Gum
10.0 g
Dextrin
8.0 g

White Strobe Composition
Barium Nitrate
51.0 g
Potassium Nitrate
7.0 g
Sulfur
19.0 g
Magnalium
18.0 g
Dextrin
5.0 g

Mix the components well and add just enough water to where the mixture will stick together when squeezed between 3 fingers. Surprisingly this mixture will work well even when it's still damp. Pressing a small amount into a small pyramid and lighting the top with a torch produces dazzling, bright white flashes.

Man, those things are awesome for fireworks, but I think they'd need some modification for poi.

Some of the chemicals used there aren't things I'd like to inhale. Parlon, for instance, is essentially PVC. At least some of the vapour from that will be pure hydrochloric acid. Unfortunately, all the pyrotechnic colour enhancers I've found tend to be similar. Sulphur is just as bad -- burning to produce sulphur dioxide, which will oxidise on contact with your skin (or in your lungs) into sulphuric acid. Not pleasant.

Don't get me wrong, the information is sound man. Just needs a little work is all. Thanks for the research. Very helpful.
This is kind of a pet project for me, actually (I'm a chemistry grad, and my best friend's a doctor ). I'm not so sure I agree on all the current HoP information on this, incidentally. Methanol is a pretty dangerous fuel to be using...


As for the mixtures being solid, an expensive alternative would be to have wicks dedicated to certain colours and then saturate the wicks with the necessary chemicals. Though you probably should use different wicks to avoid contamination anyway.

Kael, I have no idea what the heck you're talking about.

I say "Try it out as long as you are two states west of me when you do."

Bumpity-bump,
Check it out, http://www.more-than-light.com/index.asp
Anyone think it might be worth investing a few euro/dolars/yen/whatever?

Yeah, that stuff's been around for a while.

First thing that shocked me looking around the site was 1-litre of pure paraffin for "only" $20 We get 4-litres for £4-5...

For spinning use - "Paraffin oils burn brightly with minimal smoke residue and are perfect for most conditions, these oils are also available in color, (in this case the oil itself is colored, not the flame)"

It doesn't say what the fuel-base is for the Colored Flame Oils... the FAQ says "Our oils can be harmful and even fatal if swallowed. If swallowed, do not induce vomiting and Call a physician immediately. The product should be left to pass through the system normally.
The greatest potential danger is that, should the child or individual vomit, some of the oil could aspirate into the lungs and this could quite possibly cause a petroleum pneumonia, a very serious illness." - Which is nice and vague.
Not sure which of the thousands of petroleum distillates it is - are most of them potentially fatal?

Still, if it wasn't for the overwhelmingly expensive price, i'd try them
$12 for 200cc?! i.e. 0.2 litres?!
I doubt that would give me one burn on my poi...
Or the bulk-order back - 2litres for $90!


I wonder if they do endoresments/sponsorhip?

Epson Salt didnt work for me either....

Paraffin will never work for coloured flames. It burns too much yellow.

The stuff Kael is talking about is all the stuff I've been finding about coloured flames too. There's not much around about poi colours, cos it's the pyrotechnics guys that have been doing coloured explosions for like hundreds or thousands of years or something.

Essentially we need to take the chems they use and figure out which ones we can dissolve in liquid that burns colourless flames (like ethanol) , and will burn a colour at the temperature that said liquid burns at. Also if they didn't explode that would be good.

I've been trying but none of my mixes are as good as the flame dyes they sell here at HoP...