Coloured Flames FAQ (First draft)

all the epsom salts i've come across have been magnisuim sulfate and not magnesium chloride..... recently we've found that lithium acetate also makes a red flame, i'm working now to see how the concentrations for the chlorides and acetates compare.

I'm gonna have to agree.. The information here is all based on heresy and conjecture... Any FAQ about colored flames should be based on actual information, instead of just 'i heard that maybe you'd get this color if you maybe used this stuff'.

Here's a few clarifications you might like, based on actual experience.

Safety: These chemicals aren't universally dangerous. If you want information about inhalation hazards, look up the MSDS for the chemical you are using. In nearly all cases, inhalation of the chemical powder will be worse than inhalation of the burned product. Salts don't turn into a gas, they decompose into their base chemicals. The organic products produced when burning any fuel will be as bad as or worse than most of these chemicals. Also, if you squeeze your wicks out by hand, you should consider getting a pair of gloves. Solvents can let chemicals into your body through your skin, and you don't want to be absorbing these chemicals through your hands if you can help it. That said, the safest are probably the chlorides, sulfates, and acetates and things that don't involve heavy metals such as chromium. When in doubt, read the MSDS, and limit your exposure.

Shoddygoods is right, you shouldn't be putting in as much chemical as possible, you should be putting in as LITTLE as possible to get the desired effect.

Here are some ideas based on things we've actually done:

Fuel: Denatured alcohol.

An aside on fuel... Around the world, people use all sorts of crazy names for fuel. You should, as a rule, ignore whatever crazy crap people are telling you about your fuel, and contact the company that made it, and get an MSDS for the fuel, it will tell you exactly what you are using. Most companies have the MSDS online, and if they don't, they will mail it to you, email it to you, or fax it to you. They are required to do this by most countries laws.

The fuel we are using is Klean-Strip brand Denatured Alcohol, which is about 55% Ethanol, 40% Methanol, and 5% 'misc', Ethyl Acetate, Methyl Isobutyl Ketone, etc. This is a higher concentration of Methanol than most Denatured alcohols. When you are saying what fuel you have used, please tell us what your fuel is made up of, not just the regional name 'meths', 'meth spirits', 'denatured alcohol' etc. Be aware that methanol is fairly toxic before its burned (after which the products are only as bad as anything else you'd burn, if not better, since it burns so clean), so limit your exposure to the vapors, and try to keep it off your skin.

Our fuel burns a pale orangish color with no other chemicals added.

Colors:
Red: Lithium Chloride: about 15 grams per Liter. The fuel may need to be gently heated to aid dissolving, don't heat with an open flame, use an electric heater.
Red: Lithium Acetate: about 25 grams per liter. Dissolved without trouble at room temperature. Color is about the same as the Lithium Chloride, but seems to require higher concentrations. I'm using it because I had a bunch lying around, Lithium chloride might be a better overall solution.
Green: Boric acid: about 22.5 grams per liter works well. Produces a nice pale green. Does not need heat to dissolve in the fuel.

Other colors? Pure speculation. Cupric Sulfate (Copper II Sulfate) does NOT properly dissolve in the alcohol we are using. Copper chloride may give blue, but we need to experiment with it.

If you created other colors, let us know what chemical you used, what fuel (exactly!) you are using, and how much you added to get the desired effect.

We'll have some side by side photos to compare the colors soon. I know this data seems sparse, but I'd rather us have a little bit of good info, than a bunch of speculation. We'll be getting more with time.

A quick note on how to GET these chemicals. Boric Acid is sold as a roach killing powder. Lithium Chloride is sold for firework making and theatrical pyrotechnics, through stores such as: http://www.iowapyrosupply.com/

Keep in mind that you may have to pay a Hazmat charge to get these shipped to you, and you may be asked to provide ID, and possibly possess a pyrotechnics license, depending on your locality. Your best bet would be to seek out a local theatrical pyro supply store to avoid high shipping costs for hazardous materials. Keep in mind that pyro places will expect you to know at least a little about what you are doing, and sell a whole lot of stuff that you DON'T want to use in poi, so don't just pick up a little of this and that and toss it together, just get what you know you need.

Well, this is only the tip of the iceberg, but I hope it helps.

Peace,
Sam

The first post (Mine) which has now been turned into a full article was entirely based on actual proven results from experienced fire spinners (photos available on request )

I agree, alot of this thread turned into speculation which isn't helpful and is potentially dangerous hence the need for a good FAQ in the first place.

so then is this thread supposed to be a sticky?

As in the post above ( ) it's been made into an article which is linked to from the Sticky FAQ...

This guy does Fire Breathing with different colors and sparkles. There are some good pictures on this site especially the green fire. He also has a lot of good informational links regarding the chemicals.

http://fire.ranchtronix.org/

Enjoy.

its all right i have a bottle of lithium sitting in my desk.
yeah! it comes in handy to be nuts every know and then

Hello!

I did stumbled across a lamp oil supply company that offers colored lamp oil that produces colored flame. I was wondering if anyone has tried the colored lamp oil?

Thank you!

just saying i wouldnt if I were you...it wont be actual lamp oil, the chemicals used to make these colors wont dissolve in any sort of oil..oil isnt a polar solvent.....so....might wanna talk to the company and get an msds on your so called "oil"

There was some coloured candle oils for sale which came up for discussion... Try searching for "Candle Oil" in Seach (Link in my signature)

I asked my art teacher a while back to see a glaze catalog becasue I heard somewhere that many of the chemicals used are used in glazes. Sure enough most of the chemicals were in there. Go online and do a search for a glaze or pottery retailer, someone huge. They'd sell the chemicals. They come in 1 pound bags for pretty cheap.


-Hope it helps

uhhhh, maybe im missing something, but is it good to be igniting someting that kills roaches? (they can live in microwaves)

breathing it cant be healthy...

i tried green and it's nice... though the meth and the boric acid won't mix very well...

A few corrections are in order here...

Methylated spirits (meths) and denatured alcohol are the same thing. Usage varies by locality, much like kerosene/paraffin.

The stuff is basically grain (ethyl) alcohol (yeah, the same stuff you make punch and jello shooters with) with just enough wood (methyl) alcohol to make it too poisonous to drink.

This is the same stuff that is used in a bunsen burner or an alcohol camp stove.

These alcohols burn much *colder* than either kero or white gas, not hotter.

The fumes/vapors, while toxic, are less so than then kero or white gas. This is *before* you add the chemicals. Afters, all bets are off...

The biggest danger (unsaid above) is that before you add chemicals, alcohol/meth burns with a clear, almost invisible flame. Most alcohol burns are caused because nobody saw the flame. Be particularly careful arround your fuel dump.

For some reason kevlar wicks don't seem to work so well with alcohol. This is one case where you are better served with plain cotton, either denim or terry-towel.

Personally, the only chemcial I've ever used is boric acid, and I've never had any troubles getting a rather briliant green flame. You just need to mix in as much power as will dissolve.

Now, some questions... Does anyone know where to get denatured alcohol in the US for less than $11/gallon or boric acid for less than $3.50/lb? These are the best prices I've been able to find in local retail stores.

-p.

We (Ice-E FyreStorm) have been doing alot of recearch into this topic, and are in a phase where we are trying stuff out (wish us luck). Stevo (<-you'll meet him soon enuf) and i will then complile the data we gather with ALL the saftey and hazzard data, as well as saturation points, into a comprehensive document of what works and what does not, with a list of the best fuels to use, so sometime before the end of May I'll post the info here!

EDIT:
okay so we're a little behind the schedule... I'll post as soon as we have gotten round to finnishing it!

Hey y'all...

In a fit of boredom at work I took 4 photos of coloured flames while my class was doing a 'flame test' lab. It shows the colors when burning in a blue bunsen burner.

Dunno if we want to put them anywhere or anything but I thought I'd contribue to the massive colored flame encyclopedia. A photo being worth a thousand posts and all.

I never figured out how to link to photos in my own gallery but my gallery is here....

My Gallery...

Leave it to an old man to not know how to use the internet

EDIT - bah, HoP's gallerys don't allow direct linking.

Lithium Chloride


Sodium Chloride


Strontium Chloride


Copper Sulfate

Hey guys..

Anyone in the UK managed to get any of the chemicals to work please?
Drop me a line if u have.

Ive managed to get hold of some potassium chloride in tablet form.. crushed it and drowned it in meths.. so far not having much luck in getting the powder to dissolve..

Maybe something to do with the tablets known as Slow-K but got it from pharmacy/chemist.

Ive tried getting hold of the other chems but no joy
Any ideas please guys?

Thanks very much

Mr D,

Gently heat the suspension (and I mean gently using a desk lamp) with the lid on should result in a nice solution.

With compounds such copper II sulphate I dissolve the compound in a small amount of water first and then the alcohol. I like copper II suulphate as flame is much bluer than boric acid green.

As for safety all metal chlorides produce hydrogen chloride gas when burnt. This gas turns to hydrochloric acid when it comes in contact with water i.e. mucus of the the nose, lung and saliva. Metal carbonate alternatives are safey. However, if spinning outside with a gentle breeze should reduce this risk to a minium - when I teach flame testing at school I have a window open and let my students use plastic atomisers to spray the colured flame mixtures - no deaths as yet