Naming Staff Moves IV

charlie, you got it wrong again,

fishtail is a vertical trick, the staff never does a full figure eight, isted its broken down with the end spinning circles on either side of the hand. a 1 beat, if you like. your right about the back of the hand tho.




N

if shotgun(forward) = 1 then
beats_behind = 3
beats_infront = 2
else
beats_infront = 3
beats_behind = 2
end if


N

You guys are such nerds...errrrrr....geeks...hmmmmm....programmers!

Beats...beats beats, all this poi talk is driving me nuts (maybe I should try poi more often)

Anyway...Nix? or +), I still don't get this fistail thing, is it like a vertical figure 8 where oyu don't move your arms?

I have a move like that that I call a mini figure*, the arm is full extended and the motion of the staff is just provided by fingers and wrist, no arm movement at all.

Somhow, a fishtail seems to indicate more motion that that...

Shotgun - Staff does extra rotation before taken to other side/rear.

We worked out someplace (in a staff thread) that a half rotation in staff is the same as 1 rotation (or beat) in poi.


So I would say Shotgun is something like your double fig 8 as described above.


Some people seem to call the move a "cradle" as well and also too.....

erm, I know its late and I might not be thinking straight but how can a half revolution with a staff be the equivalent to a full revolution with poi?


Can anyone direct me to a thread with the shotgun explanation please. If a figure eight (2 beat or two revolution of a staff has extra beats why not just call it a 3 beat or 4 beat?

Isnt this just a name for the sake of it? I fin it much simpler to describe it as extra low or high beats to a froward or reverse fig 8 (2 beat) as you look at it.

So a forward 2 beat can have an extra beat low where you drop it behind you or one infront where I think the cradling term came from - very similar to a half a snake when talking about swinging clubs.

Oh yeah, this 'half snake' or cradle (cradled on the forearm in front the chest) would have an off centre pivot point.

This extra beat can be achieved with a a central pivot point by doing a thumb extension where the staff is 'trapped' between the thumb and the back of the hand for half a beat.

I could be wrong in what I am refering to as a cradle but I don't like that term or the shotgun one when simpler terms can describe the same thing.

Also Charles, I believe the fishtail to be like your mini figure 8 but on the back of the hand, not in the palm like a normal figure 8.

[ 15. May 2003, 16:19: Message edited by: TEMPEST ]

The back of the hand??????

um.... i have NO idea how that works

um.... ---<help>---

Charles, a rescent discussion talked about an online Japanese baton site that had a whole bunch of videos. There were two videos of "fishtale". The URL's have changed somewhat but I believe that these two will work:

http://www.interq.or.jp/mars/tom0503/taiikukan/adbyce/vtr/fish.rm

http://www.interq.or.jp/mars/tom0503/taiikukan/adbyce/vtr/r-fishtale.rm

It can be a bit tricky to do this moves, especially with a large staff that carries some momentum but it certainly can be done

yo,

i was talking about beats as head passing, ie tree heads pass behind before you bring the staff to the front, the shotgun is just a name for the extra beat without the 'cradle' or thumb-extansion, its the one that happens in the shoulder and wrist rather than laying against the arm. its just a name (this is to the best of my info.)

Bulldoser, i actually find fishtails easier with big heavy staff.

Charles, a figure eight normally has one leading head that does a compleat circle, followed by the other head on each side of the body.

Fishtail runs on what i call a one beat, so that one head makes a circle on one side and the other on the other, its even less than a figure eight

one beat = one head circles on each side
figure 8 = two head circle both sides
shotgun = three heads pass on each side (sort of)

the fishtail is a one-beat circle on the back of the hand, the hand swiches side to support whatever end is decending. Months of mental torture.

as Bender once said concerning fishtails

'Is this going to be in the test?'

and the answer is YES, if your taking the supper hardcore contact test, that is.

I only learnt thease properly at the bjc and theyre still not smooth. once you get it on the hand it can be done on forarm, elbow and shoulder. tho dont askd for a demo.


L8r

N

fishtails YUMMY

but for me and rob and steve.. reverse fishtails are easier.

I suppose you could call them fishheads
and when I say eaiser compare.
Really Really Really Really Really Really Really Really Really hard
with Really Really Really Really Really Really Really Really hard

Thanks Inferno

Ok, I now know what a fishtail is, and yes, the name is veyr apt!

What a crazy move! Somehow methinks it might take a bit of practice to get that one solid with my big staffs. I've got it with one of my smaller staves, but...

Can anyone who has attempted double fistails give me any pointers? No luck at all yet...

Bender? Did you just amke an almost completely comprehensible post?

(falls off his chair and onto the floor)

Ok, so fishtails are much much harder with big staffs...any tips from anyone who can do double fishtails?

fishtails not harder with a big staff.
about the same I reckon.

two hand fishtails, I'm close, both hand are getting solid, but only left hand works when I'm not looking but I only really started swinging doubles last night

1 Agreess with bender but I'm still looking for the joke in the last line
I just call then extra loops or snakes.... but I think it is the same as a (normal) clubswinging snake

righty ho, then, mr www.firetwirlers.com,
i believe your non-poi windmill is sometimes referred to in the HoP-niverse as a pinwheel.

also, is the double figure eight not a symmetrical move? does the staff not also spin in front as it does behind?

As well as the "double figure of 8" behind your back...

methinks you are right though that 'kickups' and 'passings under the leg from all fides' (i call em 'leg tucks' personally) have yet to be mentioned on this thread.

Thanks for all the great replies on the "fish tail and shotgun", and apologies to Bender for not using the correct “technical” terms

I was seeking clarification, because I find all the double f8 variations confusing, and only brought up the term “shotgun” coz I was curious to see if it was a "double f8", or perhaps an interesting variation (ie. advanced cousin of the double figure of 8 ). I guess the term “shotgun” comes from a “double barrel shotgun”, which could indicate a double f8.

Still, some interesting discussion on double f8’s. I don’t think the “cradle” or “extra loops” have been mentioned much before, but they seem appropriate, as we all do em somewhere along the way.

Snakes are a club swinger move, but you don’t generally cradle a snake. With a staff, the length and weight generally means that it does end up in a cradle (and you kinda carry it a bit).

I think for a staff hip snake, you would include a wrist roll in front, because you don’t hold the snake grip in front for an outward hip snake. However, with club hip spirals (snake held in snake grip in front and behind) you start bringing the club in b/t hips and forearms, and even with a longish staff (3-4 feet) you can get in, another rotation in front. Like on the second rotation you go b/t the wrist and forearm, away from the elbow, before you go around the back. I get confused with spirals, so I hope that made a bit of sense.

Single staff “windmill”, is a full/big circle behind the back, made up of smaller circles, with a hand changes behind the bum and above the head. I think from memory Charles it’s called a “pinwheel” when done in front.

Cheers