Coloured flames and toxicity

Hey guys, I have a great idea, It is called a GAS MASK, maybe you have heard of it!!!

Seriousely, I was thinking of colored flames the other day, and the chemists are right, most of that stuff is some preaty wicked stuff. But....a good quality GAS MASK should filter out most of the nasties. Being a biologist and chemistry teach myself, I would not suggest using the vast majority of chemicaly available, especialy since inhaling the fumes is a VERY good way to absorb the stuff into your system. You can buy curent issue military surplus gas masks (Isreali, german, etc) for about ten dollars (USA) through the mail, on the net, etc. and the top quality ones run about $50-200.
Realy guys, even some of those gas masks that just cover the mouth and nose would work. Maybe we should all start using masks for regular flame twirling too. It might look funny, but isn't your health worth it?

Hey guys,
what was so bad about reading that redox thing that put you so off using chemicals such as boric acid? I read it and i'm still going to use it...hell it won't kill you unless you relly try...think about it...if you are only using it a few times every now and then and aren't exposed to the fumes hours on end and you don't stick the stuff directly in your mouth or inhale the damn stuff your pretty safe? I'm getting some boric acid from the chemist tomorrow or the day after so after i use it i'll tell y'all what it was like and if i'm still alive.
See y'all l8r

:Chotys:

Dear Chotys and everybody else,
What was the LD 50 (leathal dose for 50 percent of test subjects per body weight) for boric acid? 5-20 grams leathal dose for adult human? Remember, you will be burning this stuff, Which will turn it into an arosol (that is a "vapor" for the laymen out there) which you will be breathing. And 5 grams is not a whole lot. I don't have the MSDS in front of me, but a lot of chemicals can have a cumulative effect. Some prime examples are metals like Copper, Lead, Mercury, and Aluminum. I don't mean to be your mother or anything, I just want to make sure you are aware of what you are doing.

And on another note, it is a good idea for us all to be on antioxidant vitamines like vitamins C, E, A, and the B vitamines, and folic acid (folate). Actuall a good multivitamine (with complete minerals too) would be great, with a little extra vitamin C of course. You see, most of the danger from burning hyrdrocarbon fuels comes from the carcinogenic (cancer causing) and mutinogenic (mutation causing) chemicals. Suplying your body with the proper nutrients will reduce the risk of getting cancer by an order of magnitude. some forms of cancer can be reversed with the right nutrients (the opposite phylosophy is chemotherapy) both work, but the nutrient method relies on strengthening the bodies immune system. In fact many doctors belive there are mutated cells forming in the body every day, but our immune systems deal with them no problemo.

Well, I didn't mean to go off like that. It is just that natural healing and homeopathic medicine is a hobie of mine.
no such thing as safe sex, just safer sex right?
No such thing as safe twirling, just safer twirling. Right?

I still think the gas mask idea is fool proof, even thought it is kind of wierd looking, but then so were "bell bottoms" when they first came out.

A gas mask wouldn't look silly if it was incorporated into a post-apocolyptic Mad Max inspired costume! In fact, it would look pretty cool.

I've been thinking about doing something like this for a gig that the Wick Effect have coming up. I'm pregnant and have been told by my doctor and mrmo_nyc - the home of poi's resident chemist, not to play with fire until after the baby is born. If I used a gas mask while performing I might be able to get away with it!

Dont worry mrmo, I wouldn't make a habit of it!

Finn

yea, like something off of Mad Max. Complete with peircings, leather and chains? or maybe some body paint? It seems like most of us are realatively young, imagine how good we will be in 30 years... But we have to live that long first. might not hurt to start taking some precautions early on. Especialy when burning the highly toxic colored flames.

Glad to hear about the good news Finn! congradulations. and, yea, don't make a habit out of twirling fire while pregnant...

Peace Love Fire

Daniel

Beware of gas masks... they obviously restrict your oxygen intake somewhat. You may start to feel dizzy if you're performing with a gasmask on which is because of the lack of oxygen you're getting while doing aerobic activity. Unless that's your fetish, but that's a whole other website.

BUT... this just in... Boric acid has also been advertised as a disinfectant and eyewash! MY 100% boric acid is advertised as roach poison and has tons of warnings but I have heard of other 100% boric acid advertised as disinfectant and eyewash with very few warnings! This only makes sense if you think of the purity of it. If a company is marketing it for Roach Poison they can be less careful with the purity. If a company is marketing it as an eyewash they'll probably need to charge more as the purity of it will need to be higher. I'm off to my local drug store to find out!

The LD50 for Boric Acid is high because we all agree that orally it's quite toxic... 5.14 g/kg (rats). The fatal doses of 5-20 grams was for humans. I am POSITIVE that it's bad to eat. Still workin' on it kids...

There's also a thread open in the technical section for those who've actually used it.

Finn--

Don't forget that inhalation is only one vector for absorption of nasty chemicals. The other is through the skin. These suckers are all (as Mrmo has pointed out) organic solvents which means they'll go through bodily tissues (including both the skin and the placental wall) really easily.

A gas mask will help, but it won't remove all the danger. (OTOH, a couple of celebratory glasses of wine or champagne during pregnancy won't give your child FAS -- there's a whole continuum of danger here; it's not a strict either/or situation.)

Just wanted to point out the skin-absorption problem.

Good call yo.... True dat, true dat.

Thanks kmactane.

I'm aware of the risk of absorbing toxins through the skin too. I would ensure that my skin was covered.

I wouldn't be twirling anyway, I'd just be part of the performance in a support role.

Trust me, I'd be the last person to place their unborn baby at risk.

Finn

Be careful with gasmasks! Each type is made for specific chemicals. You may think you're safe, but you could be inhaling just as much with the wrong mask than unprotected.

Also, someone asked a while ago if theatre people knew of any neat pyrotech tricks. There is stuff called flash paper and flash powder. If gives you a nice bright burst of light and some thick smoke. It would be pretty cool to see someone work it into poi. Any SFX for Theatre catalog would have it. Have fun!

A good source of information as well as products are those scientific equipment retailers, They have cataloges that are three inces thick, and you can order all kinds of different gas masks, as well as a variety of filters for each one. Because gas masks are different, and there are different types of filters for diferent stuff. I am not certain, but I think activated carbon (charcol) is one of the best for filtering out nasties. The USA military uses it in their clothing to absorb toxic substances, (of course there are always exceptions) There is also clothing available to civilians that is basicaly the same as military (activated carbon), they are sold in deer hunting cataloges (eliminates odors, which are often aromatic organic compounds) "shotgunnews.com?" ,etc. this type of clothing should filter out the nasties, and as far as I know I think the military gas masks are probably preatty good to use. Please, somebody tell us if they find out otherwise. another hazzard is absorption through mucus membranes (eyes, mouth, vagina, anus, whatever...)yea, watch out!

also, most gas masks tend to be bulky. also, if you have facial hair it will interfear with the seal...that is bad. I have an inexpensive Isreali mask, it works good as long as it is tite (one size fits all) but it is better to buy a high quality mask with a soft, silicon seal instead of medium hard rubber (isreali). the isreali mask is sort of uncomfortable to me when it is adjusted tight enough to seal, but maybe I am not adjusting it properly.

Like anything, gas masks have their limitations. the main one being the intelligence of the person who is using them. You can buy separate filters for various chemicals, and you want to make sure that you have the right filter for the chemical you are using. don't think that just because you are wearing a gas mask that you are immune to all harm! i still think that Boric Acid is relatively innocous in comparison to the carcinogenic byproducts of any organic fire, and if someone wants i can do the math to show this. but i'd hate for someone to start using something truly toxic and think that because they are wearing a gas mask they are safe!

Just how toxic is it to add boric acid to a flame some ppl say it's like adding another drop to an alrdy bad mix. Some including me think that it makes spinning much much more harmful. Which is it?

What about the other colors, I remember one being an anti-depressant. Wouldn't that be much less toxic then anything else since you could eat it anyways? I heard normal table salt could be used to change the color too burning that couldn't be nearly as bad as burning roach poison could it?

------------------
We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim Morrison

The jury's still out on Boric Acid. 100% Boric Acid is sold as Roach poison by the pound. You can also buy 100% Boric Acid at your pharmacists for use as eyewash and disinfectant (it costs more, of course). Exact same chemical. Though, when it's sold as roach poison it has lots of warnings on it and when it's sold as disinfectant it has many fewer.

I still say don't eat it.

I guess if you put 100% boric acid in a bottle and write "roach poison" on the outside it is HIGHLY TOXIC whereas if you write "eyewash and disinfectant" on the outside it's relatively tame. I'm still working on it...

[This message has been edited by mrmo_nyc (edited 20 July 2001).]

Hi everyone, I first tried to find out about colouring flames just after I started doing photography at school, bumber it was only B+W. But anyway I did manage to do boric acid with metho and it worked really well, watch out though, metho has a higher flash point than kero etc and the flame will move to your pants,shirt if the end wacks into you.
also try to add enough salts to saturate the solution, you can tell when this has happened because the salts will be visible at the bottom no matter how much you shake n stir, this'll give you the most intense colour.

Flame colour substance
red strontium nitrate
orange calcium chloride
yellow sodium clorate & potassium oxalate
green borax & boric acid apple green barium nitrate
emerald green cupric nitrate
blue cupric clorate & potassium clorate
indigo lithium clorate
violet potassium clorate
magenta lithium cloride

You could also use barium cloride instead of barium clorate & sodium cloride (table salt) & strontium or lithium clorides instead of the corresponding nitrates and clorates. The idea of this is to get rid of the oxidisers thus making the chemicals safer to deal with.
all this is of a page I got a few years ago, I hope its of some use, have fun and keep twirling.
cya's.
PS: it came to me the other night, i wonder if it i'd cause changes in ya aura, i need a bit more kundalini enery, now where's that strontium.

[This message has been edited by JeStEr (edited 04 August 2001).]

Hi,

Sorry to join the discussion so late, but i was having a few thoughts, a gas mask would look pretty cool, BUT, you may freak out any audience you may have in that if you've got a mask they make think they should have one aswell?!

Also, one of my brothers is a chemist, and i remember him making blu-tack (you know for hanging up posters with) and its main constituient is boric acid. - just a random fact, but it doesn't seem very dangerous.

Digression:

'1902 - Dr. Wiley established the formation of a group of 12 young men (Dr. Wiley's Poison Squad) to study the effects of ingestion of preservatives on humans. The conclusions of his studies were based on comparing the physical conditions of and analysis of excreta of each subject. As a result of these studies, boric acid, salicylic acid, sulphurous acid, benzoic acid and formaldehyde were declared harmful "when continuously administered in small doses for a long period or when given in large quantities for a short period".'

This was back pre-FDA (Food and Drug Administration) when boric acid was an ingredient in catsup.

ok boring, but what about table salt? easy to get, no? makes a sparkly yellow/red flame, no? (i know it does with candles, anyway...)

does it work in twirling???

someone give me an answer to this... otherwise i'll just try it. maybe i'll give myself deadly sodium chloride poisoning :P

incidentally it would be cool to have a normal flame but firebreath in another colour...

ok just tried salt. it sprayed sparks for about twenty seconds, which was cool, and then was noticably brighter for about thirty more, then went normal. i think i need to put more on. NaCl isn't soluble in paraffin, is it? I just dipped them, which may account for both the sparks and the short lived effect. was kinda cool though.

**** BUMP ****

And please move this to a more appropriate forum Oh Great Moderators.

(Awaiting Sparkly poi questions as it seems to be that time of year again... )