Coloured flames and toxicity

A good source of information as well as products are those scientific equipment retailers, They have cataloges that are three inces thick, and you can order all kinds of different gas masks, as well as a variety of filters for each one. Because gas masks are different, and there are different types of filters for diferent stuff. I am not certain, but I think activated carbon (charcol) is one of the best for filtering out nasties. The USA military uses it in their clothing to absorb toxic substances, (of course there are always exceptions) There is also clothing available to civilians that is basicaly the same as military (activated carbon), they are sold in deer hunting cataloges (eliminates odors, which are often aromatic organic compounds) "shotgunnews.com?" ,etc. this type of clothing should filter out the nasties, and as far as I know I think the military gas masks are probably preatty good to use. Please, somebody tell us if they find out otherwise. another hazzard is absorption through mucus membranes (eyes, mouth, vagina, anus, whatever...)yea, watch out!

also, most gas masks tend to be bulky. also, if you have facial hair it will interfear with the seal...that is bad. I have an inexpensive Isreali mask, it works good as long as it is tite (one size fits all) but it is better to buy a high quality mask with a soft, silicon seal instead of medium hard rubber (isreali). the isreali mask is sort of uncomfortable to me when it is adjusted tight enough to seal, but maybe I am not adjusting it properly.

Like anything, gas masks have their limitations. the main one being the intelligence of the person who is using them. You can buy separate filters for various chemicals, and you want to make sure that you have the right filter for the chemical you are using. don't think that just because you are wearing a gas mask that you are immune to all harm! i still think that Boric Acid is relatively innocous in comparison to the carcinogenic byproducts of any organic fire, and if someone wants i can do the math to show this. but i'd hate for someone to start using something truly toxic and think that because they are wearing a gas mask they are safe!

Just how toxic is it to add boric acid to a flame some ppl say it's like adding another drop to an alrdy bad mix. Some including me think that it makes spinning much much more harmful. Which is it?

What about the other colors, I remember one being an anti-depressant. Wouldn't that be much less toxic then anything else since you could eat it anyways? I heard normal table salt could be used to change the color too burning that couldn't be nearly as bad as burning roach poison could it?

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We are all in the cosmic movie. That means the day you die you watch your whole life repeating for eternity. So you'd better have some good things happen in there and have a fitting climax. --Jim Morrison

The jury's still out on Boric Acid. 100% Boric Acid is sold as Roach poison by the pound. You can also buy 100% Boric Acid at your pharmacists for use as eyewash and disinfectant (it costs more, of course). Exact same chemical. Though, when it's sold as roach poison it has lots of warnings on it and when it's sold as disinfectant it has many fewer.

I still say don't eat it.

I guess if you put 100% boric acid in a bottle and write "roach poison" on the outside it is HIGHLY TOXIC whereas if you write "eyewash and disinfectant" on the outside it's relatively tame. I'm still working on it...

[This message has been edited by mrmo_nyc (edited 20 July 2001).]

Hi everyone, I first tried to find out about colouring flames just after I started doing photography at school, bumber it was only B+W. But anyway I did manage to do boric acid with metho and it worked really well, watch out though, metho has a higher flash point than kero etc and the flame will move to your pants,shirt if the end wacks into you.
also try to add enough salts to saturate the solution, you can tell when this has happened because the salts will be visible at the bottom no matter how much you shake n stir, this'll give you the most intense colour.

Flame colour substance
red strontium nitrate
orange calcium chloride
yellow sodium clorate & potassium oxalate
green borax & boric acid apple green barium nitrate
emerald green cupric nitrate
blue cupric clorate & potassium clorate
indigo lithium clorate
violet potassium clorate
magenta lithium cloride

You could also use barium cloride instead of barium clorate & sodium cloride (table salt) & strontium or lithium clorides instead of the corresponding nitrates and clorates. The idea of this is to get rid of the oxidisers thus making the chemicals safer to deal with.
all this is of a page I got a few years ago, I hope its of some use, have fun and keep twirling.
cya's.
PS: it came to me the other night, i wonder if it i'd cause changes in ya aura, i need a bit more kundalini enery, now where's that strontium.

[This message has been edited by JeStEr (edited 04 August 2001).]

Hi,

Sorry to join the discussion so late, but i was having a few thoughts, a gas mask would look pretty cool, BUT, you may freak out any audience you may have in that if you've got a mask they make think they should have one aswell?!

Also, one of my brothers is a chemist, and i remember him making blu-tack (you know for hanging up posters with) and its main constituient is boric acid. - just a random fact, but it doesn't seem very dangerous.

Digression:

'1902 - Dr. Wiley established the formation of a group of 12 young men (Dr. Wiley's Poison Squad) to study the effects of ingestion of preservatives on humans. The conclusions of his studies were based on comparing the physical conditions of and analysis of excreta of each subject. As a result of these studies, boric acid, salicylic acid, sulphurous acid, benzoic acid and formaldehyde were declared harmful "when continuously administered in small doses for a long period or when given in large quantities for a short period".'

This was back pre-FDA (Food and Drug Administration) when boric acid was an ingredient in catsup.

ok boring, but what about table salt? easy to get, no? makes a sparkly yellow/red flame, no? (i know it does with candles, anyway...)

does it work in twirling???

someone give me an answer to this... otherwise i'll just try it. maybe i'll give myself deadly sodium chloride poisoning :P

incidentally it would be cool to have a normal flame but firebreath in another colour...

ok just tried salt. it sprayed sparks for about twenty seconds, which was cool, and then was noticably brighter for about thirty more, then went normal. i think i need to put more on. NaCl isn't soluble in paraffin, is it? I just dipped them, which may account for both the sparks and the short lived effect. was kinda cool though.

**** BUMP ****

And please move this to a more appropriate forum Oh Great Moderators.

(Awaiting Sparkly poi questions as it seems to be that time of year again... )

I want to colour my fire on my poi. I've heard you can buy stuff which does the job, but i don't know what it is or anything, if anyone can help i'd be very gratefull.

thats funny...why havent he mods moved this to technical discussion?

ok for colored flames i dunno about the boric acid
but most of the metal hydrides wont dissociate enough into kero\parrifin if ur not in teh US
for those who didnt know
also
something i was thinking of was potassium permanganate in glycerin cause i know that makes a fREAKIN HUGE FLAME
i mean MASSIVE
like we put in about 10g of KMnO and about 4g of glycerin into a 100ml beaker and the flames almost reached the ceiling
if your going to use potassium permanganate its a mad oxidizer so BE CAREFUL
Ok this might sound crazy but i was thinking about making a mix kinda like this
ok use lamp oil and white gas as ur fuel
then if your going to use a metal hydride
for example Copper Chlorate (brilliant blue green flame)dissolve that into acetone, paint thinner, or mineral spirits...Basically a really really stong industrial solvent
then u mix the solvent w\the dissolved metal hydride into your white gas and lamp oil mix
methinks it would work
i dunno risk of flashback might be really hi tho.......
another thing i was thinking of was using that goo\paste that they use in hibatchi.....
ill check out teh solvent thing w\me dad
hes got a degree in organic chem. so well see
more details tomorrow

ok i found out about the boric acid peice
go to http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boric_acid
and thats just about everything on it
its only a mild irritant if inhaled or gotten on skin etc etc etc
not lethal unless ingested
so yeah thats about it on the boric acid topic

i've heard that blue-stone gives a green flame.......

can anyone verify this?

ken

blackbird......you're funny. i'm gonna try table salt and see what happens, too.

Whoever was tlaking about using boric acid....DONT it will kill you!!! That stuff should have a little label on the side saying that this is DEADLY TOXIC TO PEOPLE AND PETS!!!!!

Just a little warning.....look at my signature to see what i mean about what will happen if you use this stuff!

Ug... we've talked about this a billion times before... Boric Acid is only dangerous if you eat it. As is Kerosine, lamp oil, kevlar, ball chain, or leather straps. As long as you don't eat any part of your poi (including any boric acid) you won't have to worry about the toxicity.

Boric acid is used as a rat poison but only kills rats when they eat it. Not when they twirl fire with it or put it on their fur.

Don't eat it.

hmmm.....good point...but let's think about this....eating, breathing, if you're downwind or the wind changes and you're breathing it in....or you open your mouth and the wind changes....you're kind of screwed...!!!! Just to give you a little heads up!

(Not to be mean or anything)

The Dragon of the Poi

Not to be mean or anything but generally people don't eat the poi wicks which is what we're talking about.

If you are spinning poi and fire ends up in your mouth you've got bigger problems than boric acid.

and one can buy these cool sounding chemicals...um...WHERE?!?!

*walks into sainsburys*
ah yes hello...i would like half a kilo of pottassium permangenate, 2 oz of hydrochloricbexyhydrountramonesoduim glucim nitrate please.....thanks..


i dont think..

salicylic acid is toxic when administered in small amounts over a long time?

that's normally called asprin, you know.

has anybody tried putting the metal salts into the wicks as solids, before rolling / folding them? I'm imagining even having powdered magnesium. hmmm. there must be some way of delivering a compound into the flame and avoiding having to dissolve it first.

I found that when you make your wicks, if u want really good color you can seed your wicks i.e. sprinkle boric acid on the kevlar while ur rolling the wick.

IT DOES WORK

IT DOES WORK...

... when you use the right fuels.

(Not lamp oil, kero, etc...)