Coloured flames help

Hi!! I'm an italian poi twirler... I've seen in a site some mixes to colour flames; www.geocities.com/firepoi
it makes coloured flames adding chemicals to ethanol, methilated spirits or alchol... my problem is that my flame is coloured but it's not strong! I can't do nothing because when i twirl my poi they turn off... how i can make a stronger flame???
thanks!! Paolo

I don't know if this will help you 'Eskimo' but how much of a certain chemical do yo add to your fuel? Have you tried mixing larger amounts of chemicals into your fuel...i don't know if this makes stronger flames but if you add more of the chemical it should (theoretically) make the flame a 'stronger' flame. Hope that helps a bit!
:Chotys:

Ah... the topic of the week I guess.

There are currently two other related threads running on this topic in the social section so I'm going to propose that we make a plan:

IF you have worked with colored flames, tell us exactly what you did and how well it worked.

If not, shush. No theoretical chemistry (so shut up Mrmo), no "I had a friend who's sister said that one time she..." If you've heard a rumor, try it and tell us how it works, what fuel you used, how much salt, etc...

Just cold hard facts from people who've actually done it.

Alright folks, after tonight, I will relate my experiences with you all. I am using the trusty dusty boric acid. THe only thing I didnt understand through all the thread previous and present, was what in the world all these chemicals dissolve in. I dont even want to try out alcohol. I read somewhere that it will dissolve in alcohol, but oh well. So Im trying it out with coleman... Most of it seemed to dissolve, or at least dilute? Ill see when I get to my dance spot, wont I?

Wish me luck!

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We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a physical experience.

~Edgar Cayce

Boric acid does NOT dissolve in coleman gas...

I didnt try it with kero... I guess I have a lot of studying to do, huh? ack

Peace

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We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a physical experience.

~Edgar Cayce

Yeah, the ole Boric Acid trick needs to be dissolved in Denatured Alcohol or methanol to get it to work. I've also heard that it'll work properly with lighter fluid, but haven't found out for sure.

Methyl Hydrate is what I use as a fuel base for boric acid. You can get it in hardware stores.

-Rick

Methyl Hydrate,

Rick, by any chance, do you know how long the burn lasts? Also, what is used for besides us crazy people doing amature chemistry? (This for a cross reference for someone at the hardware store helping me find it!)

Thanks

BTW, I made some towel wicks, and I laced them with boric acid. So dissolving or not, Im going to get some colors on this one!

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We are not physical beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a physical experience.

~Edgar Cayce

Ok guys,
If you want to get boric (or boracic same stuff) to dissolve properly try using something like methelated spirits or shellite. Now i know that both of these fuels have a *VERY* hot flame compared to kero and most other fuels because they are alcohol or petrolium based and if you hit yourself you are more likely to get lit on fire...but anyway...using shellite should work and because you would (i think) only be using boric acid every now and then (like the last finale in your show) the chancers of you getting ill from shellite or boric acid is less. So as long as you aren't using shellite, boric acid or any other chemicals too often then you should be right! I hope that helps a little bit.
Bye everyone
:Chotys:

Hey guys, I'm a ceramicist and I have pleanty of access to lot's of chemicals that I use to glaze with. I've heard that barium compounds work, and I have this but does anyone have any other advice on barium before I plough on and [probably} get hurt?!
Not to worry if you don't, after all I'm the one who's supposed to know! It's just that firing pot's and spinning fire is inheirenty very different. xxxx Masaya xxxx

1. I tried dipping towel wicks in "denatured alcohol saturated with boric acid powder", the flame was greenish, but VERY weak.

2. another time I tried lacing a towel wick with boric acid (disolve boric acid "to saturation" in hot water, then pour on towel, then dry and role it up into a wick) I did not notice any color change at all (compared to the "control wick". I was using an orange burning hydrocarbon based fuel this time.

so far I am zero for two

next I will try lacing and using a white burning fuel light camp stove fuel
just in case the orange flame masked the green color. (but I don't think this will work if my theory below is correct

Theory: Mr. MO, don't the ions have to be seperated in order for the color to appear? in other words, if the salt "decomposes" under heating, but the charges remain bonded in +/- pairs, wouldn't there an absence of color change. That would mean that the ions need to be solvated. I know ioninc bonds (NaCl, etc) are very strong, don't they stay together during "decomposition" via overheating.

Experimental data: For example, when my "laced" wicks were burning in hydrocarbon fuel, I watched the crystals "sizzle and pop" (BTW, that is the scientific term!) I could not see any color change however.

also, Rick,( or anyone who has tried it) does that methylated hydrate stuff give a big flame?

Dear Mr. Mo,
would the wick material also have an effect on the flame brightness? for example, if I use towel wicks (a cellulose bases material, which has alot of -OH groups that can perform hydrogen bonding) with an alcohol (ethanol, which also has H-bonding) wouldn't the affinity of the fuel for the wick (h-bonding) prevent the fuel from leaving the wick readily enough to get a large flame? There for if I was using a different wick material (wool, or maybe kevlar???) I might get a bigger flame with the same stuff.
Theory: wool is made of long chain amino acids some of which have available h-bonding sites but I don't think there are as many as cellulose, also I am not sure how "polar" wool is. I wouldn't think it would be to polar, but I am not positive. I don't know the structure of kevlar, but I doubt it has alot of h-bonding sites, or polarity. (isn't it some sort of polymer?) Do I know what I am talking about or am I totaly off base? Please help me here, Mr. Mo. (I am not going into vaderwalls forces or dipole moments cause that would take up to much room) I am not certain as to the net effect of these atomic forces or which of the four would have the greatest effect.

I concur with... um... the last person who said stuff.

Have no fear guys, I have found the ANSWER!

Actually, after chating with some reliable sources, it seems that I was barking up the wrong tree. I tried soaking in lamp oil and then DUMPING TONS of Boric Acid on only one my wicks (a true science experiment).

NOTHING happened. That is they both burned the usual yellow flame. Actually it was a BIT greenish for the minute before it died.

The problem appears to be sodium contamination NOT solubility. Sodium burns the nice ORANGE flame that we're all used to. It seems that Lamp oil and such contians some sodium to make it burn brighter which masks the color of anything else!

This means you need to use a fuel with no sodium in it like methanol. I have also heard that if you've EVER used a wick with lamp oil it is contaminated and won't burn anything but yellow even if you use non-colored fuels but I didn't confirm that.

So all of our wonderful bonding, polarity, ionic charge arguements seem to be superceded by one stupid element.

But I did find a cool thing to do. Take a sterno can (I found a bunch of them for $0.44 each, be careful they can be GROSSLY overpriced.) Put a bunch of Boric Acid in it, then light it. GREEEEEEEEN! Might be nice as a lantern from which to light from. Be careful with those things thought, as the flames for uncolored sternos are REALLY hard to see (no sodium, see!) And, of course, you just put the caps back on to extinguish them and use them next time...

So, as a newbie, I'm not going to use any fuel hotter than lamp oil so I guess I'll have to wait for pretty colored flames...

Finally, as for the toxicity of Boric Acid. I dumped a TON of 100% Boric Acid Roach Poison on a renegade roach that was in my house. He looked up at me, essentially fipped me off, and then went about his buisness. Two days later I see this white roach in my sink and realize... IT WAS THE SAME GUY! Ahh, the joys of living in NYC.

Yes, yes, methanol. You can also use Denatured Alchohol which will work as well. Dries out your wicks quicker though so I'd suggest using towel wicks b/c they are much cheaper. I was a chem student at UNC so my friends in the labs are gonna get me some Potassium Permangenate to play with. PURPLE! Yay. I'll let you now how it turns out.

dear supafly,
What type of wick are you using with the methanol and/or ethanol? (are you using kevlar?) I tried a towel wick and the flame was so small you could hardly see it, and it would go out if i spun faster than 1 rotation per second. however, there seemed to be alot of fuel left in the wick (because fuel affinity for the wick, the fuel wouldn't leave the wick?!?!?!?) I want BIG flame and LOTS of color!

I Juggle torches so I can tell you how I mix chemicals for that. I always use denatured alcolhol and boric acid. (paint stripper and roach killer if you want to find it at the hardware store). On kevlar wicks it burns fairly well though not quite as nice as a yellow flame so I only burn green at night. I found the best way was to mix the two together till the liquid turned a bright blue color then add a bit more boric acid into the mix. If you have too much alcolhol you will get a yellow flame, if you have too much acid you will have some powder left on your wick when you are done. So take your pick. Also, I've never found it hurt to switch back and forth between fuels. Finally, mixing the denatured w/ colmen or kero will only drown the green flame out in yellow and ruin the effect. Hope that helps. trip11.at.hotmail.dot.com

Haven't tried it w/Kevlar yet. Get decent sized flames with towel wicks, little smaller than when using Coleman's white spirits. Spoke with a fella that used Kevlar and he said that the flame is bigger but it ruins the wicks quicker. I figured this would be due to fewer bonding sites for ions. I guess it's a trade off. I think u r right about the H-bonding affinity of cellulose wicks though. It would increase the number of hydroxide binding sites. How about soaking Steel wool in methanol laced with boric acid? You might get green sparkly poi with a large flame. I'll have to try that as well as break down and get some kevlar myself. I think you will get a smaller flame no matter what material that you use due to the highly volatile properties of ethanol and methanol. They are much "lighter" than kero or parafin and evaporate quickly when ignited.

Where do you get Boaric Acid or Borax from ?

Boric Acid is roach poison if you want to buy it cheap, disinfectant if you want to pay more... I dunno what that translates to in your neighborhood but most large grocery stores in my hood carry it...