Inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

LOL... been there done that man... but it only turns up some of the inversions like the one you linked, not like the one I linked (with the exception of the one I linked.. )

the word for the day is "inverse kinematics" ... (?)

• http://hms.upenn.edu/software/ik/ikan_gm.pdf
  
• http://freespace.virgin.net/hugo.elias/models/m_ik.htm
  
• (or the source) http://www.google.com/search?q=inverse+kinematics
  

that was two words, huh?

"crap". you still have to work the poi, hand, and elbow as targetted "joints", but the elbow can be fudged, and the poi can be specified in combinations of planes, I think. that should handle all the math you need, though. =D

umm. and you can use this to model inverse stuff.. lalalala .. (what topic?) lalala..

-- dut

I think I found the hardest inversion that I've learned to date... take the left hand counter clock wall plane btb.. take the right hand counter clock behind the shoulder blades/neck...

be careful not to hurt the shoulder socket of the hand that comes up from the bottom..

ouch
hey i've got some time!
atomics.

just so you know some of these moves are easier if you stick your tongue slightly out like this...

first let's start with the atom itself, {simian, your atomic weave is two atoms woven together so let's start from here first.}for all these basic moves try to keep the atom shape intact and in the same angles.
this isn't the best way to learn atoms, but we need a set of terms first. so the names may appear to jump around and not have any sort of coherency, but just know that the names make more sense as we get on to the atomic weaves.

let's start with a _forward_ inversion/buzzsaw. from here there are 2 inverted atoms. and there's 2 from the reverse buzzsaw too.
here's a pic courtesy of the illustr-ious spiralx... even though the arms are too short and the poi too long... who's counting?
mind blowing graphic of inverted atom

1. open the buzzsaw into an atom by taking the right plane and moving the far side of the circle 45 degrees to the left, and the far side of the left circle 45 degrees to the right. keep both hands inverted. we'll work with this one cause this typewriter only has backslashes and so this atom will always be an X from above.
Code:

---

L---> X  <---R

---

2. open the buzzsaw into an atom by taking the right plane and moving the near side of the circle to the left 45 degrees, and the left plane will move the near side of the left circle to the right 45 degrees.

okay. from here on out let's ONLY work with atom # 1, but all this applies to both, in a reflective way. remember, always go back to that exact atom every time you mess up! it will get confusing...
#1
so now let's try moving it around. first the easy one, move the atom away from you to a full outside.
outside #1
Code:

---

 X

^^

!!

LR

---

now back to #1
it's really simple to half invert it, with your right hand "outside" and your left hand inverted. you can flip your right hand from inverted to outside and you'll be flipping the atom from inverted to half inverted, see?
half inversion #1
Code:

---

L-->X<--

         R

---

now let's do more. lets move the right hand around.
there's lots of places you can put your right hand if you can crane/parallel the poi so they don't hit each other... let's assume you can, and do the moves in order, keeping the left hand still and bringing the right hand's postition more and more around in a clockwise direction. now we have zones: with the left hand in a and the right hand in c
Code:

---

    b

a(L)X(R)c

    d

---

let's go back to the full inversion #1

the hardest one-you pull your right hand toward you, into the space created by the triangle closest to you, zone d, but without changing your right hand at all, iow it looks like it stays "inverted" if you just stare at it as you move it. you'll be essentially putting your left arm in to zone b, forearm at a 45 degree angle. this is a crane half inversion and this one's real crooked. you can do your right hand either inverted or outside and they are the same.
Code:

---

L 

!

v

X

^

!

R

---

but this requires really good "crane control" so you get a cracker if you get it.

move back to inversion #1...
if we continue, keep moving the right hand around to zone a, and you will run into problems. the first option, is to do an outside atom, 5 beat or second degree to be specific. you'll have to be in a 5 beat spider, (so just the arms... they are crooked around each other like the crossover in the middle of a 5 beat weave... left elbow on top, right elbow under, right hand poking up and on top with left hand under) the atom will be fully outside at this point.
Code:

---

L-->   X

r-->          

---

another is to put your right arm in zone a, just next to the close side of the left poi's circle, and the left arm will be crooked 45 degrees in zone b. this is an outside half inversion
Code:

---

    L

    !

    v

R-->X

---

keep doing this one... you can keep going around if you can crane, by pushing your right hand so it sits under the left forearm... your atom is outside again, now your hands are doing the three beat spider, or first degree crossover. this is a 3 bt. crane atom.
Code:

---

L-->X

  /

R

---

if you keep going around, to inside atoms, they are the same as the moves of an atom from a different buzzsaw so let's stop there for now.

Ok so that's a hell of a lot of new stuff arashi, many thanks for taking the time to write it all down! I'm going to have to spend a fair bit of time when I'm not sat at my desk here at work going through it! I've done some stuff with inverted atoms, but just getting the basic inversion to stay there is harder than doing a bloody inverted weave.

One quick clarification - in your first diagram is your body directly below the X? So the two planes at at 45 degrees to your normal wall/wheel planes?

Once again - thanks!

no with the body like this
Code:

---

     X
   /    /<--pretend this is a backslash, so it 
   *body*      looks like a real arm and not some cheap 
                    imitation flailing arm

---

oh even though i b*!ch a lot about circuitous argumentative word misunderstandings you don't have to be so nice... not that i'm complaining but when you're this nice it makes me feel...

like ROYALTY
wait we take it back, you may now grovel to us...
[holds out his ring]

I'm not kissing your ring you know :P

But you seem to be agreeing and disagreeing with me... here, I've drawn a crappy diagram, is this what you mean?


http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/display.php?image=/500/1989atom.GIF

The red lines are the planes of the two poi. And yes, I know the end of the arms should be closer to where the planes cross

as the french would say, weewee.
can i put that up there somewhere?

Go for it

Ok, initial thoughts

Written by: arashi

---

let's start with a _forward_ inversion/buzzsaw. from here there are 2 inverted atoms. and there's 2 from the reverse buzzsaw too.
1. open the buzzsaw into an atom by taking the right plane and moving the far side of the circle 45 degrees to the left, and the far side of the left circle 45 degrees to the right. keep both hands inverted. we'll work with this one cause this typewriter only has backslashes and so this atom will always be an X from above.
Code:

---

L---> X  <---R

---

2. open the buzzsaw into an atom by taking the right plane and moving the near side of the circle to the left 45 degrees, and the left plane will move the near side of the left circle to the right 45 degrees.

---

So from #1 the poi are in a plane parallel to the arm holding them, in #2 they're in a plane perpendicular to the arm holding them? Hadn't thought about that difference before, I've done everything in #2 which seems a hell of a lot easier...

Written by:

---

so now let's try moving it around. first the easy one, move the atom away from you to a full outside.
outside #1
Code:

---

 X
^^
!!
LR

---

now back to #1

---

Ok, some clarification needed, doh. In the very first diagram are your forearms pointed towards each other with the centre of the cross in between your hands? And to get the outside you move your arms so they instead point away from your body.... the poi are still spinning in the same place but you've gone from inverted to outside?

Even if that's not what you mean that's something for me to think about already lol

oh crap! just wait til you try the cranes... i'm eager to see how many can do that first one...
"one bite on this to(ngue) and the baron will be no more"
.
.
"remember the to-(ngue)"

seriously, once you practice #1 atom that outside's an easy transition.

or you could try tackling them all in your natural (2nd) atom. if you did you'd probably figure all this out for yourself, for now i'm just taking an atom and moving my hands around... your first outside would be the 3bt atom, corresponding to the #1 atom's 3bt inside atom which i stopped short of... hey if you do that, would you code it up for us? otherwise start with the ones i posted.

if anyone is trying this and has questions now is the best time cause i won't have lots of time (again) really soon...

Just to check are we talking same- or split-time for all of this?

same. well both really, but the basic crane transitions, split time, in an atom... without threading you'd have to thru wrap, right? i don't have my poi with me...

Ok that's what I thought

so, is this indecipherable or what? i see lots of people reading this thread but no responses for almost 2 weeks!! is it too hard or too easy? or did arguing with rev scare everybody off

broken fingers are stopping me try any of this stuff at the moment...

--ben

OMG that is my worst nightmare.
worse even than this F#*KING MUSCLE i keep pulling in my hip... (limps back to the kitchen)
so sorry!

I've been trying to understand this thread for longer than I care to admit, in retrospect, what I should have done is jumped in my car and driven down to Texas. With me it's the learning from reading text, I'll cast my vote with too hard

you know it's okay to ask questions
did the vid of the three beat inversion not help?

I'm still trying to find out if I understand.. so I can't ask anyquestions.. because I understand something, pretty sure its this.. who knows.. but I've been to busy with school, and my new poi project that I kinda slacked off..

i could've sworn YOU posted a vid of one somewhere!
*grumbles incoherently about short term memory loss*

Oh yes, that one. I guess it was an inverted atomic weave lol.

Doh!

Oh and I did a couple of better diagrams here for your type 1 and 2 atoms - blue is left hand poi, red is right hand poi. Although yes, the poi are still too long lol

Type #1
http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/display.php?image=/500/1989atom1.gif

Type #2
http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/display.php?image=/500/1989atom2.gif

Arashi. you mean the video on page 6? it kinda helped although I felt like i was watching a hyperloop tutorial, no laughing please, I'm hoping to link up with PoiBox II in the next few weeks. hopefully he can shed some light on this subject.

I can't seem to get past the buzzsaw weave, which to me feels like more like a short chain three beat weave with a couple of ( to swipe a term from spherculsim ) fakeys in it. The timing just feels strange

Ok.. I must just be missing something.. all my atoms work like butterflies.. and I get all the transitions your talking about without a problem.. and I'm afraid I still don't get the point.. I mean.. yeah I get that its an atom, but I'm trying to figure out how this is anydifferent from a butterfly stuff.. so either A) I'm child prodigy, or b) I'm hopeless.. I'm going with the latter..

That might be because these are all opposite direction atoms... If you start with a same direction normal move it turns into an atom with a "butterfly" characteristic and vice versa it seems to me.

every way I turn my atom ends up coming out butterfly like.. even when I turn straight from same direction -> atom -> butterfly -> other atom -> back.. it all comes through butterfly.. *shrug*

Left poi front wall plane CW, right poi right wheel plane CW. That's not very butterfly-like