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#125371 - 17/06/04 10:06 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: coleman]
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veteran
Registered: 01/05/02
Loc: London, UK
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Well as arashi said elsewhere the notecoleman5 is an uncrossed 5bt inverted weave as the inverted bit your hands aren't crossed... the crossed 5bt inverted weave is where you enter the inverted bit after twisting. Think I finally worked out how your bloody notcoleman5 works last night finally! 
_________________________
"Moo," said the happy cow.
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#125372 - 17/06/04 10:27 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: spiralx]
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big and good and broken
Registered: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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but that means sometimes you count the inverted beats and other times you don't...
the notcoleman5 only has 5bt in total, including the inverted beat [which incidentally is a crossed arm inverted beat - the right arm when inverted spins around the crossed over left arm and vice versa].
as described by arashi above, the 5bt buzzsaw weave has 5bt not including the inverted beats and 7bt if you include them.
the notcoleman5 is a variation of the 3bt move i describe above (which may or may not be a 2bt buzzsaw weave).
question is, is there an way of counting which lets us describe crossed over inverted beats or are crossed arm inverted beats just a variation that can be put anywhere in which case, is there any point discussing them further?
personally, i feel there is something we're missing here... 
maybe i need to learn 3 versions of a 3bt weave with each one inverting a different beat - or would it be 6 versions...?!!??
[edited for maths correction  ]
Edited by coleman (17/06/04 11:33 PM)
_________________________
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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#125373 - 17/06/04 10:59 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: coleman]
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veteran
Registered: 01/05/02
Loc: London, UK
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So that would be
over-under-inside (the standard 3bt)
same-inside-under
same-over-inside
Hmm...
_________________________
"Moo," said the happy cow.
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#125374 - 17/06/04 11:18 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: spiralx]
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big and good and broken
Registered: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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yep.
and that assumes the pattern is symmetrical.
there are 3 more if you consider that you can take those descriptions and apply them independently to each arm.
_________________________
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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#125375 - 17/06/04 11:43 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: coleman]
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veteran
Registered: 01/05/02
Loc: London, UK
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That depends on whether it's possible to do them independantly... let's see L: same-over-under R: over-under-same Standard 3bt? I think so L: same-inside-under R: over-under-inside Is that even possible? That bit seems doable, but going from the third bit back to the start seems like it might be a problem. Or not. I have no idea
_________________________
"Moo," said the happy cow.
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#125376 - 17/06/04 11:55 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: spiralx]
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big and good and broken
Registered: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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good, cos nor do i at the moment you know, i might do some poi this evening  or i might just juggle again (soooo close to my 5b target best now!)... now i've got you in here mr x, i think i'll bring up the subject of butterfly weaves using cross arm inversions which you suggested to me some time ago. obviously you can't do double cross arm isolations (i.e. two cross arm inversions at the same time, or the 'notbarrelroll'  ) due to tanglingness happening. but you can fit in the odd one here and there like the 3bt weave variations talked about above. however, its even harder to work out which beats fit inside and which ones don't with bf weaves... anyone else played with these? [where's arashi when we're posting gems like these all over his threads ]
_________________________
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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#125377 - 17/06/04 11:56 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: coleman]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 21/03/02
Loc: austin,tx
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grrr you guys are trying to suck me back in with g(r)eek talk i liked the name notcoleman5 i was going with it just didn't post cause i was busy (frick i still am) actually i think the confusion started with me hurriedly writing the post and over translating into hop language when i really shouldn't have, the "buzzsaw" is a loaded word, inverted weaves leaves the meaning more open well if i uderstand what you mean, and we may actually be getting closer to understanding, seems like you are doing parts of 2 beat inversions at different points within a 5 beat, since the 5 is, really, different 2's and 4's put together, you can do the 2 beat inversions at different times within the 5 beat (and within the three beat also, of course, at the even times). and crossed arm inversions happen after the 3 and 5s. with the even # inversions the inversions are "buzzsaws", but you don't have to do the buzzsaw with both wicks you can go back to the other weave by adding the 5 beat spider (5 beat hand motion)(which is of course the same really as one side of the 4 beat but never mind that) at the end. if i read you correctly, as you can see there's just too much... can't we just call them all notecoleman5's?  this even beat or notcoleman area goes with i guess you call them offset weaves? where we are offsetting inversions, offsetting parts of 2 beat inversions for instance and anybody who doesn't understand the concept that a complete "4 beat weave" is actually two things put together... the 5 beat and the 3 beat... will just explode when they try to understand all the variations. the 5 beat and the 4 beat involve the same hand motion but act differently depending on the spider pattern you are in. i understand them and i get confused trying to explain it all man it's getting light outside time for bed :insert vampire graemlin: darn you for sucking me back in
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#125378 - 17/06/04 11:58 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: arashi]
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big and good and broken
Registered: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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ah there you are!
thought you would be in bed - damn hippies and their nocturnal habits...
sleep well man 
_________________________
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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#125379 - 18/06/04 12:06 AM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: coleman]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 21/03/02
Loc: austin,tx
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now i can't sleep until i know if i get what you are saying
_________________________
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
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#125380 - 18/06/04 12:07 AM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: coleman]
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veteran
Registered: 01/05/02
Loc: London, UK
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Written by: coleman
good, cos nor do i at the moment
you know, i might do some poi this evening
*falls over gasping for breath after having a heart attack*
Written by: coleman
or i might just juggle again (soooo close to my 5b target best now!)...
See my sig
Written by: coleman
now i've got you in here mr x, i think i'll bring up the subject of butterfly weaves using cross arm inversions which you suggested to me some time ago.
obviously you can't do double cross arm isolations (i.e. two cross arm inversions at the same time, or the 'notbarrelroll' ) due to tanglingness happening.
but you can fit in the odd one here and there like the 3bt weave variations talked about above.
however, its even harder to work out which beats fit inside and which ones don't with bf weaves...
anyone else played with these?
They're still on my list of "things to do" to be honest. However now that I've been playing a lot more with the inverted stuff I may give them a go. I'm pretty sure most of the uncrossed stuff will be doable, but timing is going to be a bitch...
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#125381 - 18/06/04 12:12 AM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: arashi]
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veteran
Registered: 01/05/02
Loc: London, UK
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Written by: arashi
grrr you guys are trying to suck me back in with g(r)eek talk
*innocent face*
Who, us?
Written by: arashi
actually i think the confusion started with me hurriedly writing the post and over translating into hop language when i really shouldn't have, the "buzzsaw" is a loaded word, inverted weaves leaves the meaning more open.
Agreed.
Written by: arashi
well if i uderstand what you mean, and we may actually be getting closer to understanding, seems like you are doing parts of 2 beat inversions at different points within a 5 beat, since the 5 is, really, different 2's and 4's put together, you can do the 2 beat inversions at different times within the 5 beat (and within the three beat also, of course, at the even times). and crossed arm inversions happen after the 3 and 5s.
with the even # inversions the inversions are "buzzsaws", but you don't have to do the buzzsaw with both wicks you can go back to the other weave by adding the 5 beat spider (5 beat hand motion)(which is of course the same really as one side of the 4 beat but never mind that) at the end. if i read you correctly, as you can see there's just too much... can't we just call them all notecoleman5's?
Ok, now there's stuff. Crossed arm inversions happen after the hand movement at the point where you would normally have moved across the body... uncrossed interrupt the hand movement?
Written by: arashi
this even beat or notcoleman area goes with i guess you call them offset weaves? where we are offsetting inversions, offsetting parts of 2 beat inversions for instance
and anybody who doesn't understand the concept that a complete "4 beat weave" is actually two things put together... the 5 beat and the 3 beat... will just explode when they try to understand all the variations. the 5 beat and the 4 beat involve the same hand motion but act differently depending on the spider pattern you are in. i understand them and i get confused trying to explain it all.
Offset weaves - stuff like doing the 2 beat weave using a 5bt twist? I can see how that might relate to this stuff.
Written by: arashi
man it's getting light outside time for bed :insert vampire graemlin: darn you for sucking me back in
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#125382 - 18/06/04 12:23 AM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: spiralx]
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big and good and broken
Registered: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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i think we're both on the same page arashi.
the thing that still seems weird to me is that first 3bt weave variation with a crossed arm inversion i describe above - i wanted to say it was a 2bt inverted weave but the hand motions on the outside are not those of a 2 bt weave...
i can spin a 2bt weave with 2bt of buzzsaw as the transfer from one side to the other but that doesn't involve the notbarrelroll - its just a buzzsaw...
can you spin a 2bt with the double cross arm inversion bit across to the other side?
i think i need to have a play with more even beat stuff after reading your post again dude but for now (just to be sure we're on the same track), i'll just make sure that we're not talking about 'normal' buzzsaw beats anywhere here - all of the variations i am talking about are the ones with single beats of cross arm inversions.
until tomorrow compadres - i gotta go see about a girl  
_________________________
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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#125383 - 18/06/04 12:33 AM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: coleman]
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veteran
Registered: 01/05/02
Loc: London, UK
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Written by: coleman
can you spin a 2bt with the double cross arm inversion bit across to the other side?
I think so if it's an offset 2bt weave... because then you're in the 5bt hand position and thus are crossed.
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#125384 - 18/06/04 02:17 AM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: spiralx]
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veteran
Registered: 01/05/02
Loc: London, UK
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Written by: spiralx
over-under-inside (the standard 3bt)
same-inside-under
same-over-inside
Ok...
same-inside-under seems like it might be antispin..
Code:
L R
Inside
Same
Under
Inside
Same
Under
I think. Or at least there's going to be separations. In fact, this might even be an isolated weave if the separation is right.
Now for same-over-inside...
Code:
L R
Over
Same
Inside
Over
Same
Inside
This looks definitely doable
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#125385 - 18/06/04 04:34 AM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: spiralx]
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Bastard Newbie Messiah
Registered: 14/03/03
Loc: Apparently lost in my ego
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ok.. now that I've had a chance to look things over...
a few things I have may be pertinent or not
1) sprial yes its very much like anti-spin which is why I've been pushing so many people on it.. because it finally gets even newbies to see past the terms -weave-, -buzzsaw-, etc.. because thought it looks liek a weave and has the reverse weave hand motions to a forward spin its really just doing the right side of an inverted weave on the left side of your body no? I mean what you ahve psoted up there looks pretty antispin to me.. now the reason I'm on abbout anti-spin isnt a new move..but a new way at looking at something we already do so to speak.. to see the concept as more then just the way the poi spin since it was something we were doing anyway and never really caught on.. you know..
2) the two beat but being cross armed.. I could be wrong I'd have to go pick up my poi by my antispin (nipS for short) 2bt weave.. is a two bt with inverted hands for the most part which results in me having to cross over my left arm from under in order to get into the buzzsaw at all.. again I'll have to go spin my poi and get back to you guys after I run my errands..
oh wait.. now that Ithink about it.. the nipS two beat is the twisted up 5bt with a 2bt then done.. .. yup.. spot on..
3) we're talking about poi again.. ra..
4)coleman.. I'm not sure.. but these anti-spun butterfly and ttn's that I've been doing may help with some the questions you have above... I havent' really played with it enough to know if or how it would though..
(antispun 4bt ttn for the record.. start with and inverted butterfly, ie right hand on top on left side.. left hand under on the right side. spinning a forward butterfly.. then take the right hand up, pull back towards you and to the right.. then push back under the left hand.. then take the left hand and lift up, pull back and to the left.. and then push under.. basically reverse ttn motions with a forward ttn.. )
Edited by Rev (18/06/04 04:56 AM)
_________________________
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
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#125386 - 18/06/04 11:14 AM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: Rev]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 21/03/02
Loc: austin,tx
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quick question...
spiral what does "same" mean in your diagrams?
_________________________
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
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#125387 - 18/06/04 11:33 AM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: arashi]
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Bastard Newbie Messiah
Registered: 14/03/03
Loc: Apparently lost in my ego
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coleman- on the butterfly whatnot.. I played around today andI went from a reverse butterfly into a straight jacket (where my arms are folded indian style) and for the purpose of this discussion the right arm came under the left aand back over into the buzzsaw pushed through to the left side of the body.. during the buzzsaw into sstraight jacket, the left hand just kept its butterfly motion to the outside (right side), then followed to the left side.. where the process kinda unwound on the other side now.. I've been kinda working the other two more or less equally to get out of it.. but I didn't have neough time to really play that long..
is the something like what you meant by taking one across.. or rather how you meant taking one at a time? I'll see what I can do about getting a diagram up..
_________________________
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
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#125388 - 18/06/04 12:26 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: Rev]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 21/03/02
Loc: austin,tx
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on the notcoleman note (this is mostly for other people reading this, i think we all understand each other) went and read blue's description and remembered again what it actually is... my post above (written pertaining to the other kind of inverted weaves, the super simple ones that are just like 2 beat weaves where one wick leads the whole time) was going on straight up not rolled inversions, patterned into a weave, although my older posts on the the notcoleman were pertinent before i forgot which move they were  the notcoleman is sort of like an offset though, i think the theory on my last post still applies. the two kinds of crossarm inversion that i am aware of at least, as i said when we first realised what we are talking about months ago, are following and leading, yours is following, the example i started this off with was leading. those names kinda suck though so i am open to more mathematical descriptions. basically the "notcoleman" one goes around the arm like a longarm, the center point of rotation is the opposite of an isolation, which there is no word for but i've been calling a longarm. it's really a miniature longarm with no actual arm involved, your hand traces the curve the arm would make. the "leading" ones i described were isolated, to roll around the arms. and (for the deepsoulsheep) the puzzle i threw out was to think of ways to go from isolated inversions directly to "longarm" inversions, and vice versa, both which you can do infinitely. (goes off to try to figure out this inverted bfly anti spin business)
_________________________
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
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#125389 - 18/06/04 06:19 PM
Re: buzzsaw weaves(inversions), insides
[Re: arashi]
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member
Registered: 29/01/04
Loc: Perth, West Australia
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Written by: arashi
a miniature longarm with no actual arm involved,
So this is nothing then?
arg i have lots of practice infront of me. 36 different versions of this: 
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