bluecat
azuremog
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the best spinner in the world... and the state of spinning today  find similar
06/03/06 04:07 AM
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once upon a time, when my horizons were small, and the total number of members on hop was less than my currrent member number(aaah the good old days when i went by mineiro  ), i harboured a secret(hah!) desire and need to be 'the best spinner in the world'
this year, with organising uber events, travelling the world, and being generally reinspired to spin after a year of jugglefever i have come to the following conclusion:
there will never be a best spinner in the world.
i long ago stopped thinking it would be me  but now have stopped thinking it could be anyone.
why?
well. theres a few obvious reasons.
spinning is not competitive, its contemplative. this means you will never be able to judge objectively who is 'better' at spinning. and long may it remain that way.
people have entirely different focuses(foci? focal points? crocuses?). how can you compare RHD to meghan? you can't. simple as that. unless meg spends a year on throws, and antti and tommi spend a year on contact(which, quite scarily, i think they have....). or.. glass and oli. eek! what kind of comparison is that?
and, most importantly, people who have different focuses have got soooooooooo good at the individual sections of what they do that in order to catch up you'd have to give up on another section, allowing some other single minded bugger to totally forge off into the future and blow you away when you look back at what you used to do. some good examples being wibblingmatt, rhd again, meenik  , devkev, oli... the list is long and there are so many i have not named.
one of the great things about these people, and many of their contemporaries is the new respect that spinning gains within the performing and specifically object manipulation communities. no longer can a snooty juggler(or diabolist, or staff spinner about poi, etcetc) turn round and say 'huh, poi is not worth my time because i could learn everything in a day' (and beleive me, that is an accurate paraphrase from bristol juggling convention three years ago from a top juggler). it takes time and dedication, understanding and insight, openness and a willingness to share to become a top level spinner.
Some kind of conclusion? hmmm. well, er... i don't really have one, and i suppose i'm opening this up for some kind of discussion here. i don't want replies that say 'xxxxxxxxx is the best'. i want to know how people feel spinning is developing and has changed since you started. i want to know what you respect about people that inspire you, and how you feel that inspiration is good for the community at large. i want to know what you don't like about the new spinning community, and how it has been belittled by its incredible growth.
i also recently rebumped an awesome thread of NYCs about 'the london factor' (sorry, no link, cold fingers) i'd like to hear also what you think makes a successful spinning community and why some places deliver one style as opposed to another... er. that'll do for starters. i need a cup of tea.
i one last thing: I consider it an honour that many of the most innovative and exciting spinners in the world are my friends, and choose to spend some of their time sharing their skills and inspiring me to develop mine. thank you all( i think you know who you are).
Rob
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Holistic Spinner (I hope)
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LazyAngel
random guy
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06/03/06 04:17 AM
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Written by: bluecat
spinning is not competitive, its contemplative. this means you will never be able to judge objectively who is 'better' at spinning. and long may it remain that way.
 Well said Rob!
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Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
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bluecat
azuremog
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06/03/06 04:21 AM
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i've got a small edit tho
martial artists and baton twirlers
need i say more?
as for that quote LA, i once thought very differently, and may do so again, but for now, ta
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Holistic Spinner (I hope)
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newgabe
chopping wood drawing water
Member #17365
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Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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06/03/06 04:39 AM
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Indeed, nice thread Rob.
From my vantage point (the back deck) I have seen the development of spinning over the last 10 or so years. I have made tea for many of the 'best'. I have watched them drop and get burned and try again and get it, and watched little boys turn into stunning professionals. I have seen people with the most extraordinary levels of talent, grace and dedication barely able to scratch a living, and have been honoured to offer them a clean space a mumsy hug and a place to play. I repatch the grass each winter to prepare for the European exodus seeking summer lawns. Why? Because this is the most inspiring group of people I have ever come across. French grace, English eccentricity, Canadian sweetness Aussie sweat or American flash, it all warms my heart. My favorite thing of all, is that total beginners can play right next to 'the best' and everyone is making sense in their own circle. Lovin it.
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.....I remembered my power cord.... I remembered my power cord....
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KaelGotRice
BasuGasuBakuhatsu - because buses may explode...
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06/03/06 06:32 AM
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This thread is made of truth and love.
Keep spinning peoples
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To do: Working on Firedrums 08 video
Some things I missed recording - Yuta looking confused after we asked him to teach us "Hadouken"
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Richee
Concentrator, HOP Librarian
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06/03/06 07:33 AM
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I respect on peple that ispire me, their willing to teach, the opennes as way to develop yourself.
Community is for me, sharing, helping each other. Showing new things, making Poi better, family.
I mede a list what I'd like to seee in the future:
Perforamce - As way to show spinning to public.
Workshop - As way to show how easy it can be to public.
School - To give a educational and livestyle value.
Shop - We sell staff, but where are books?
Books - I made a list of the known, but still they are missing in shelves. The reason is visuality, that why encyclopedia with images, may better electronic book with videoloop could be very helpfull(wikimedia, Omnimodus).
Videos - Those with perforrmance quality, mostly shared now as single pieces, but the idea of DVD is still present (sphercular DVD), workshops can be on tape too.
Center - Where one can come and:
-can make own spinning pro.
-can practise inside
-can practise outside
-can sit in chair and discuss eye to eye.
-can sleep after long time traveling
-can get food and drink
Boad - HomeofPoi, Spherculism, Soton and others for international discussion.
Meetinks - Country-side and international.
InterPoi - Sharing cross countries, inter-community-paths, coutry spinn assistence on-line, help-line.
:R
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UsedCarOnlyFord
I passed my driving test, its a 1991 Ford transit
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Loc: Whales
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06/03/06 08:51 AM
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London thread.
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My other car is imaginary - I have a van 
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duvan
member
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06/03/06 09:14 AM
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ok, let me be the party-pooper but I say there is a way to find out who is the best spinner in the world
just gather the most advanced and talented spinners
have an audience of about 2000 people
and then let them rate the different performances
and - wohoo - you WILL have a winner, mo matter how close the decision is
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yoni
i know why
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06/03/06 09:29 AM
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but thats only one definition of best, as rob sai different spinners have different styles, doing that would be like asking which is a better computer, a chair or a sofa (ok bad analogy). basically what i'm trying to say is you cant compare two differnt styles and then pick the best as alhogh they have similarities they are also very different.
Also thanks for making what should be an awesome thread.
as i haven't been spinning very long i hven't seen it change much however from what i have seen it seems very laid back in most cases, i am much more interested in having a good time, sharing what i know with others and relaxing than i am in being a "better" spinner than someone else
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UCOF "evolution: Poi -> stick -> hoops -> devil stick -> juggling club -> juggling ball -> crayons."
Supergroovalsticprosifunkstication
In other words, it's the thumps bump
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duvan
member
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06/03/06 09:33 AM
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yoni but this is the only way to (quote) "judge objectively "
and to be objective in general you have to collet as many subjective impressions as possible!
edit:
recent example : the Oscar awards
a couple of people chose the winner for one category although the movies are completely different
the average of opinions of different people is what I call objectivity
thus these opinions determine that one specific movie is the best one concerning soundtrack
argh hard to explain tell me if anything is still obscure
Edited by duvan (06/03/06 09:37 AM)
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yoni
i know why
Member #20449
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06/03/06 09:35 AM
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but surely no matter how many seperate judges you have it wont matter if your trying to judge two different people doing different things on the same thing.
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UCOF "evolution: Poi -> stick -> hoops -> devil stick -> juggling club -> juggling ball -> crayons."
Supergroovalsticprosifunkstication
In other words, it's the thumps bump
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duvan
member
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06/03/06 09:41 AM
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of course you do. you do it everyday.
if you see someone playing jazz with his trumpet and someone playing classics, you might say "I prefer the jazzish music"
this does not mean that you denounce the other style but you have a favourite
so if the people had to decide whether Yoni or Duvan is the world's best spinner -> each individuum would chose his favourite style and I think that the average of these decisions is the objective point of view on the world's best spinner
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yoni
i know why
Member #20449
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06/03/06 09:49 AM
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but that would not be deciding the best, that would just be your personal preference. i may prefer the piece of jazz but for the very reason it is different you cannot decide that it is better than the classical piece. and this goes for the same with the spinning, one particular person may impress by being more impressive to the crowd, however another person may excell in a completely other area of spinnig, which is nowhere near as impressive but is still just as much a justified area of spinning, so it would become more a contest between which styles are prefered and not who is best
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UCOF "evolution: Poi -> stick -> hoops -> devil stick -> juggling club -> juggling ball -> crayons."
Supergroovalsticprosifunkstication
In other words, it's the thumps bump
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duvan
member
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06/03/06 09:59 AM
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If I prefer jazz -> then jazz is better in my opinion than classic
If I prefer Yoni's spinning style -> then I think he's better than
Duvan
If I find something better than the other thing I have a personal preference.
Tell me how to make a decision without personal preference.
Once people elect Tony Blair they do it because they think he is the best. Some people might be annoyed about this election but the majority of the Britons did their choice. ( = democracy )
Ermm... it's hard to tell you exactly what I mean  
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bluecat
azuremog
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06/03/06 10:13 AM
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*insert small thread derailing complaint here*
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Holistic Spinner (I hope)
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Ange_GSC
HOP's glowstick ambassador!!
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06/03/06 10:13 AM
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Poi shouldnt become something about who's "the best" that's not what matters to this community. Fire spinning is an art, and I believe this art is appreciated better without many of the bad vibes of rigorous competition, and who's better than who.
Written by:
My favorite thing of all, is that total beginners can play right next to 'the best' and everyone is making sense in their own circle. Lovin it.
Also my favorite thing, being able to spin right next to someone you may have idolized for years, and having it all make sense can be one of the best spinning experiences you'll ever have.
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missegyptology: "I just remember beingall off balance and unicycling really fast down to campus and the arabic was all blurred on the page"
^When Linz pulls an all nighter before Arabic class^
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LazyAngel
random guy
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06/03/06 10:15 AM
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Duvan: are you trying to say that the best spinner in the world is the one whose style is most appealing to the most people?
That would mean that the best move in the world, is the 3 beat weave, spun REALLY fast?
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Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
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UsedCarOnlyFord
I passed my driving test, its a 1991 Ford transit
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06/03/06 10:22 AM
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Nice one Guy
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My other car is imaginary - I have a van
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duvan
member
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06/03/06 10:28 AM
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exactly angel, you got it
IMHO best in the world = the world's darling
get that equation ? 
I don't know if the best move is a 3beat weave muy rapido, depends on how you present tricks. If I show people knowing nothing about poi nice isolations they find it the most astonishing trick they've ever seen with poi
Of course I want to provoke poi spinners out there. They all say "competition does not matter" but in fact competition is very important for the progress of some peoples' poi skill. I don't care about competition anymore since I achieved my personal poi-goals
Edited by duvan (06/03/06 10:31 AM)
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LazyAngel
random guy
Member #10419
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06/03/06 10:57 AM
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Duvan: ahh yes but on different levels I think:
there is competition with your local spinners like, 'who can learn BTB waistwraps first?' but then I'm not looking to compete on with people on an international level, it's just a bit of fun between friends, and it pushes us to keep up with each other.
Sometimes one of my friends will pull out some totally amazing move that will make me stop and think 'cool, I'd really like to learn that' and vice versa.
It's never ever been, and ever will be, 'my style is better than yours'. I just know what I like, and that's ultimately what I aim to produce with my spinning, although I tend to pick up a lot of stuff that I consider less aesthetic and more interesting along the way. Until it suddenly makes sense in the wider context and slots into your spinning like a missing piece in a jigsaw. Then it becomes aesthetic
But aesthetics differ from person to person. Some people are obsessed by high beat weaves and moves, personally, I'm not so keen. So that is not part of my aesthetic poi goal. But there are people that use them to spin really nicely. So at the end of the day, aesthetics must be subjective rather than objective.
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Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
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oli
the girl with cactus
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06/03/06 11:05 AM
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you can have stuff like:
the best person at running 100 meters very quickly in the world
the best person at throwing a brick the furthest
etc...because in these cases there is very specific set of criteria that need to be filled.
whera as i dont think you could name the best runner in the world or the best person at throwing a brick....
because there are people who do long distnace running or 100 meter running and its not the same people who are good at both.. so saying that there is a best runner in the world is much too loose of a statement. likewise, some people night be able to juggle bricks, and some people would probably say they are better at throwing bricks than the person who once thre a brick a really long way.
so saying who is a best poi spinner in the world? is way to vauge to be able to have an actual answer.
and my rambling misguided thoughts on the points at the ends of robs post follow...
When I started spinning… I didn’t know anything about any poi community… I joined hop and I still think it took a while to sink in that there was a spinning community, because it was not automatic for me to assume hop was connected to any kind of community at all. Eventually you start to get involved in the community and find out that there is actually a community.. and then you find out that goes far beyond hop, and that it is in actual fact and massive kind of super community made up of other communities. So I don’t really know what spinning was like when I started spinning, as I wasn’t really involved in spinning then.
Since I have become involved in spinning I think spinning has become much more diverse, it is much more common to see people who have devoted them selves to certain ways of spinning now and are really exploring things.. But again I simply do not know if that is just because I know and see more spinners now a days…
Poi is like any other art, if an artist dose something some other artists likes, it is going to give them ideas about what they could be doing themselves that is natural. And I think it is good to have a lot of people to inspire you, that way you have a much bigger set of ideas going in and out. Any art would be boring if everyone just copied the work of some one else, but if you can mix a few peoples ideas that haven’t been mixed before it is much more interesting. So a lot of inspiration is good for the community as it keeps us all happy, and still spinning.
The spinning community is amazing.. I feel very special to be a part of it, I don’t really need to say any more…
I think a successful community needs a good mix of people, you need organisers, jokers, introverts, extroverts, talkers, watchers, etc… allsorts, there needs to be an understanding that all these different people are what make the community tick, and that they are all important. And why different communities develop different styles, thats evolution I reckon, kinda like monkeys stuck on islands for millions of years.
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Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
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FireTom
~*~
Member #5820
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06/03/06 10:50 PM
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.... so let's bring Poi-spinning to the Olympics to find out...
But generally I agree with Rob... 
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Carpe vitem
~*~
Humble guardian to the amazing three: Chellybean, Hamamelis and AmaraO...
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mcp
The Flying Water Muppet
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06/03/06 11:50 PM
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How's the best is always a pointless question when it comes to spinning, it's like asking who's the best writer, or the best painter?
And if you really think that the best = the most popular, then surely the best restaurant in the world is macdonalds and the best singer is justin timberlake.... What sense does that make? You can barely even call what macdonalds used to sell as food.
And hey look! I was mentioned by Mr Blue! Though if antti is now 'better' than me at contact, I'm going to have to kick his ass!
I've got flu...
Quoted:
Written by: bluecat
i want to know how people feel spinning is developing and has changed since you started. i want to know what you respect about people that inspire you, and how you feel that inspiration is good for the community at large. i want to know what you don't like about the new spinning community, and how it has been belittled by its incredible growth.
i also recently rebumped an awesome thread of NYCs about 'the london factor' (sorry, no link, cold fingers) i'd like to hear also what you think makes a successful spinning community and why some places deliver one style as opposed to another... er. that'll do for starters. i need a cup of tea.
One style as apposed to another, I think it's always due to the other spinners in the area. I learnt a bit of blue's doubles contact and a bit of mo-seph's technical spinny doubles and in learning those things off them, I both encoraged thme to learn more of those respective 'styles' probably gave them new ideas in my random chat and flailing around, and then came back to them once I had learnt it, with variations. Hence a fledgling style becomes more solidified with more people learning and developing it. In order words, I think like a pearl it starts with one person and anybody that comes into contact aids the growth of that style in some way.
Now to the first question: What I like and simulataneouly dislike is people learning really difficult contact moves much quicker than when I learnt them. This happens on almost a regular basis I feel. And I suppose I've only got myself to blame. It's all worthwhile when you meet them in person thou.
Having just got a proper job now, my perspective has changed slightly, I think I might spin for technical perfection rather than performance. Or something like that...
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"the now legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
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Tom_Shill
Teapots President, woo!
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07/03/06 12:02 AM
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Written by: duvan
Tell me how to make a decision without personal preference.
Quite probably can't be done, unless you make a decision at random. But the point you're missing is that situations in which someone/something exceeds others don't require you to make a decision. If one building is 100m tall and another is 50m you are not required to decide that the first building is taller, it just is. Moreover, your personal preference could lead you to decide that the second building is taller, but you'd be wrong. This is because height is an absolute. You can measure it and prove that one exceeds the other. As Oli says, in a distance brick-throwing competition the person who throws the furthest would win. So he's the best at throwing bricks a long way . But what if the loser can juggle nine bricks? You might say that he's better at throwing bricks, but you wouldn't necessarily be right, not in the way that you were when you said the first person was better at throwing them a long way.
So the point is that spinning, like throwing bricks, is not judged on one thing alone, or a set group of things. There are infinate different qualities that different people bring to their spinning based on their personalities and other skils etc. So even if you got everyone in the world to vote you'd still only have opinion. You could say that so-and-so is the world's favourite spinner, but never the world's best.
As to Rob's questions, I haven't been spinning that long so I haven't seen any changes, but I know what's made me enjoy my spinning and keep at it. I think there's an openness that you don't get in other areas of life. There's none of that 'I won't teach you that because I don't want you to be as good as me' business. Everyone's just glad that other people are into it. I was made to think about this the other week by something that I think sums up what I like about spinning and the people who have inspired me. I happened upon a trick that I found I could get fairly easily and was playing with it at our club, and it turned out that one of the guys who's been helping me had been trying to get it for ages and he couldn't. So he asked me to explain it and he had it more or less nailed straight away. In certain sports groups and stuff that would never have happened, one of the top players asking a newbie to explain something. In spinning there's a much more relaxed, sharing vibe, so everyone gets better together, and everyone respects everyone else.
*waits to get jumped on for using the word 'better' *
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Will those capable of telekinesis please raise my hand?
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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07/03/06 02:35 AM
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Surely there is no problem with saying "they are the best spinner in that group of people". The problem is when you expect others to agree, and getting miffed when they don't.
From a more "objective" point of view, given the infinite sets of criteria available for judging the level of someones ability everyone is the "best".
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*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
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