UsedCarOnlyFord
I passed my driving test, its a 1991 Ford transit
Member #1881
Reged: 17/04/02
Loc: Whales
209342
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The Problem with new spinners today...  find similar
11/03/04 11:11 PM
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Ive been spinning poi for a good two years now, and I am always more than willing to teach anyone who wants to learn.
Now a bit of background info: Sunbeam, Konsti (troubled badger notjingt to lose) and I (and also another friend) are all at University together.
Here there are many spinners.
The number is growing as well...
however, there is one thing that for some odd reason annoys me (well, not reallys annoys, more like its me being a bit grumpy)
Hyperloops.
I had been spininng for two years before these dumbfounded contraptions of moves were invented.
I learnt the "moves" in poi as most people do (2 beat/ chase, butterfly, corkscrew, 3 beat, 4, 5, etc) and then i learnt hyperloops.
But nowerdays people are wanting to learn Hyperloops straight away.
But I say NO!
My question to you is:
Is my saying NO! justified?
Should people, when learing this Poi malarky, start with easy moves or go straight into hard technicalised stuff?
Is there even a correct order in which to learn spinning?
*mandoratory suck up to not offend anyone coming up*
This post isnt aimed at ANYONE on here and i dont not mean to cause offence. If you dont like what im saying, then print up a t-shirt and tell the world. I dont care. 
*mandatory suck up finished*
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My other car is imaginary - I have a van 
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coleman
big and good
Member #2914
Reged: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
209346
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11/03/04 11:25 PM
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good question.
long answer.
read this. 
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"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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Frodo
Boss of O.B.E.S.E
Member #5027
Reged: 30/06/03
Loc: In a van
209350
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11/03/04 11:28 PM
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ive been spinning for 10 months as u know ucof, should i be trying to learn technical stufF???
does 10 months qualify me? cause ??? cause ??? i wanna learn them, and have learnt a few and am progressing onto some crazy ones?
do i qualify? and am a a "new spinner"??
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Full Time Spinner - and SFS site bum.
Boss of O.B.E.S.E
"He looks like hes doing ballet" - sunbeams
mum comenting on dave knox!
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DeepSoulSheep
________
Member #3146
Reged: 25/09/02
Loc: Ballybrack, Dublin
209355
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11/03/04 11:38 PM
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I would say your better off having a good grounding in the basics first. But then I'm willing to admit I'm wrong.
Where do you draw the line? Can you do a thread the needle behind your head and back? How about a 4 beat behind your back or head?
Hyperloops are a family of moves and although technically more difficult, who's to say where they should be learnt in order. 
There is the argument that poi moves reveal themselves to you over time and that's true but you often need the initial seed (or knowing something exists) or you could miss something.....I think. This isn't the same as been showing somthing like that though.
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I live in a world of infinite possibilities.
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Kit
collector of hippies
Member #6603
Reged: 22/01/04
Loc: middle of Troon
209356
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11/03/04 11:39 PM
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i hope not....  p i've only been spinning since october! i think he means NEWbies like 'ooh i picked up poi last week show me hyperloops!'
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random murbles
BELTANE FIRE FESTIVAL. 30th april ~ Calton hill - Edinburgh
SAMHUINN FESTIVAL. 31st October ~ Royal Mile - Edinburgh
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simian
monkey
Member #3268
Reged: 11/10/02
Loc: London
209359
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11/03/04 11:45 PM
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IMO (which stands for In Monkeys Opinon)
its not about what "moves" you have
its about the control you have over the poi
you can start with tangles before cross follow if you want and\or can
you might find it a bit tricky
but i know an über juggler who did exactly that
and now he's rather good at them
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"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
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mech
maker of pointless avtars
Member #4853
Reged: 09/06/03
Loc: "In your ear"
209366
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11/03/04 11:56 PM
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i say if they want to lear n hyperloops teach them, its then not ur fault if they end up as a 5 trick woner, not knwoing how to spin properly!
still its you who will get bad mouthed! 
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Step (el-nombrie)
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laZy
member
Member #5616
Reged: 28/08/03
Loc: Somerset...... England
209368
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11/03/04 11:57 PM
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I don't think that you can say that you cant learn the hard stuff first. But I kinda defeats the reason of calling them the advanced hard moves if they are learnt first. Plus it's a whole lot easier to learn hyperloops, wraps and isolations once youve got the basics done first. I have been spinning for just under eight months and would call myself a new spinner but at the same time I would call myself a good spinner. I would have loved to learn the hard stuff first but it's like trying to run when you can't walk. Now having got hyperloops under my belt I'm not that impressed and I don't really see what all the fuss is about.
laZy
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as laZy as .....
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Tao Star
Compulsive Knitter
Member #4769
Reged: 30/05/03
Loc: Bristol
209378
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12/03/04 12:31 AM
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i don't think there's any right or wrong, people can learn whatever they want - if you won't teach them then someone else will.
but if they don't learn the basics first then they will be rubbish, basicaly. they will be able to do those tricks, but they won't be able to progress much in any direction till they know the building blocks.
people always ask me to teach them to do btb waeves before they can do a reverse weave - it's possible to learn btb forewards, but much harder, so i never teach till they can do both forewards and reverse. I could try teaching fwd btb, but they normally find it too hard and just give up - it's in people interest to learn properly if they want to take it further.
However if they just want to learn that trick, it's really up to them, they know what they want, and as long as you've explained to them the progression why shouldn't they learn whatever they want?
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I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
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Dunc
PLAY to your heart's content
Member #5526
Reged: 19/08/03
Loc: The Middle lands
209385
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12/03/04 01:11 AM
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humph....more like the problem with old spinners today 
No seriously....different people develop at different rates. Personally I've been learning for *counts fingers* 9 months and had the 5 beat fwd/bkwd basic weave nailed within a cuple days of trying and that was about 2 months after I started spinning....but....I only saw a hyperloop being done about 2 weeks ago and nailed it reasonably quick. But could I do it because I've now been spinning consistently for the last 9 months and have the technique or just because they're actually incredibly easy to do?? If I had seen them done earlier I'm sure I would have nailed it earlier but of course I'll never find out now.
So in answer to your question....
"....people are wanting to learn Hyperloops straight away. But I say NO! ......is my saying NO! justified?"
No. I don't think so. I think if they want to learn show them how to pull off the move, explain the basics of it but explain your thoughts on the importance learning the basics and technique first. Do you have structured lessons? Then make sure that hyperloops aren't in them.
Don't stop spreading the knowledge of moves, you could be holding up the next poi prodigy!! 
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  being a Dad is the best feeling in the world.....ever! 
Sorry but there won't be a bouncey castle at play 
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[Nx?]
Scoiattolo de mare
Member #796
Reged: 05/11/01
Loc: Europe,Scotland,Both
209388
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12/03/04 01:16 AM
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yeah. I think you can teach anyone anything they want. weather they can do it is another matter, and you might suggest a few things to get them there...
so the kids want hyperloops, give them to them, watch thoes planes. give them heavy poi to practice with too, if you can do it you can, and thats great, you kneed joy in your poi to put the hours in to realise your planes. peaple find them in the end, but mainly through trying to learn tricks that are too hard for them.
besides, if something is really difficult then you should straight right away, cos its gonna take ages. 
Later madam bovery
T 
p.s. isolations are always good, they are damm hard and take a few months of practice at least, its shure to get teh newbie going, one way or the other... hehehe
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This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
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onewheeldave
Sheffields Premier Off Road Unicyclist
Member #2895
Reged: 28/08/02
Loc: sheffield
209421
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12/03/04 02:52 AM
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I think that many of what we call advanced moves aren't necessarily harder to learn than the basics if they're taught properly.
It took me 3 months to learn a reverse 3-beat and I've occasionaly taught it to someone in an hour.
I don't think that one handed butterfly combinations are technically more difficult than 3 beat stuff.
I've recently been teaching a girl who's got a lot of potential who's picked up the basics really quickly, last week I started to show her how to do releases/throws.
On the other hand I was recently showing someone else some basics but she was constantly asking how to do five beats. I found it a little annoying as I was trying to help her achieve a more relaxed and stable three beat.
To me, she really needed to sort out her 3 beat before working on getting extra beats in and my feeling was that I was wasting time which could be spent either teaching someone else more willing to listen, or practising my own stuff.
Whereas, the first girl put in a lot of effort to learn the basics I showed her and made a big effort to put thought into learning to slow down the moves as I suggested, so I was totally happy to spend more time teaching her and introduce her to some release moves.
Part of why I wanted her to try this was to satisfy my own curiosity about whether releases are genuinely advanced or whether it's just a tradition to teach them last.
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"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the  Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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Rovo
Happy and you know it
Member #5315
Reged: 30/07/03
Loc: Upstate New York
209425
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12/03/04 02:59 AM
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I think everyone should get a firm grasp of the basics before trying anything technical and complicated. If someone doesn't have a firm grasp of your basic 3-beat weave. Meaning making look clean, not having problems, being able to move the planes around and all the tweeks to it. When they get to harder more technical moves its gonna be that much harder to control the planes keep it looking clean and even from looking good at all.
I think if you havn't been spinning for long and are just starting make sure you have everything down before you move on to more technical stuff. It will help you learn moves in the long run.
I made the mistake of not learning my windmills and corkscrews clockwise when i first started and had to go back and relearn those moves. Believe me it was frustrating.
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Happiness is the only thing that matters
On the corner of life I'm standing just standing kind of doing nothing,
Just biding my time,
I'm standing, seeing the world fly by my eyes it's almost blinding...
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Tao Star
Compulsive Knitter
Member #4769
Reged: 30/05/03
Loc: Bristol
209430
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12/03/04 03:16 AM
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Quote:
I think everyone should get a firm grasp of the basics before trying anything technical and complicated.
true - but not everyone plans to take it on full time - some people just want a couple of moves to lear.
on the other hand, most people don't realise when they start just how addictive it is!
Quote:
I made the mistake of not learning my windmills and corkscrews clockwise when i first started and had to go back and relearn those moves. Believe me it was frustrating.
believe me, i know! i had to spend a good 6 months relearning every trick i knew backwards - it was annoying and also completely POIntless, cos i sould have done them as i went along. that's why it's important to have someone tech you before you jump in alone.
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I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Member #3614
Reged: 02/12/02
Loc: Calgary, Alberta Canada
209432
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12/03/04 03:19 AM
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Personally, when I teach, I bring spinners through the basics first, to give them a foundation from which to build upon.
Different spinners learn at different speeds. I am a slow learner, and I know this. I am a decent spinner, in my opinion.
I'm not a trick spinner, though I love learning new tricks. What I've been told I do and do well is move and dance with the poi. Oh and rolly pollies too. 
Seriously, though, I am not able to teach folks hyperloops because I'm not there, nor am I able to teach isolations.
I can teach behind the back reverse weave, but not btb forward.
Unless the spinner in question seems to be comfortable and smooth with reverse to forward weave turns, I tend to hold off on the extra beat moves until their planes seem decent, and they've relaxed.
HOWEVER, as I said earlier, different people learn at different speeds, so I've had to learn to be flexible.
One of my friends/students has an amazing grace to his spinning. He's probably close to the level I'm at as a spinner, and has been at it for less than a year. He can even move, and dance as he spinns, which is totally amazing to me. It took me about a year to really start moving with it...but then...I'm a slow learner.
Now that I've rambled, and written a novel...I'm going to finish eating my breakfast.
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Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
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Spanner
big ideas between little ears :)
Member #4171
Reged: 27/02/03
Loc: the port of Gos
209454
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12/03/04 04:07 AM
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Jon, this morning*
Quote:
Hyperloops.
I had been spininng for two years before these dumbfounded contraptions of moves were invented.
OK, my neck needs a stretch
No-one invented hyperloops!
I know this because I used to do hyperloops with lengths of rope many years ago, before I even knew what poi were. But that doesn't mean I invented hyperloops, does it?
You could even say it was the first ever "move" I learned. At the time it didn't look like it could be of much use to anyone so I stopped doing it. When I found poi, I read hyperloop instructions which confused me into no longer being able to remember how I originally did them, although i know it's definitely the same move. Is this the right way to learn?
Anyway, that's how it happened for me 
(*only joking luv )
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Once you HoP, you can't stop
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UsedCarOnlyFord
I passed my driving test, its a 1991 Ford transit
Member #1881
Reged: 17/04/02
Loc: Whales
209457
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12/03/04 04:11 AM
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replace "invented" with "got popular"
this means that you have now got to take out the "were" in the sentence as well, but you know what i mean.
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My other car is imaginary - I have a van
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NYC
Newbie Wrangler
Member #552
Reged: 26/08/01
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
209461
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12/03/04 04:18 AM
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I'm always amazed at how fast I can teach someone to learn moves.
I think I taught what took me a year to a certain someone in a weekend. And not even very much time on the weekend too.
To answer your question, YES, you are justified in saying "No" to teaching a newbie spinner tricks before they are ready.
When teaching chemistry, I've got tons of tricks that I COULD tell the kids to allow them to get the 'right answer' on an exam without actually learning the concept. Of course, I don't tell them the tricks until AFTER I feel that they've learned the concepts. And the same is true for poi.
As a poi teacher I feel that I have a responsibility to teach theory and philosophy as well as 'moves'. And if you're not willing to buy into that, then go find another teacher.
Or UCOF, you could just be a jerk about it which is always fun... just keep saying things like:
-"Here, watch me!" [And do the hyperloop slightly differently every time]
-"You're thinking about it too much! Just let your mind clear"
-"Let the poi move you"
-"You've almost got it... try it faster and closer to your face."
-"Visualize it"
-"Be the poi"
-"Yup, that's it!" [When they clearly can't do it]
-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]
-"Try it without the poi first"
-"It doesn't work unless they're on fire"
-"I learned that in London, I can't teach it in New York" [Works for me only]
-"Which move did you want to learn? This one?!" [And then continue doing the wrong trick] "Or this one"?
Hee hee... the list continues... and yes, I do realize that I'm giving the entire London Crew ammo for the next time I ask them to explain a trick.
I got a DJ friend that works in clubs and whenever someone asks him for a request he always says one of two things... either "Yo, I just played that" or "I'm gonna put that on next"... Translate it to poi and use as necessary.
But again, that's just me being silly. I do think we have a responsibility to incorporate proper philosophy and technique in teaching as well as showing where to put your hands for a hyperloop.
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Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
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coleman
big and good
Member #2914
Reged: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
209463
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12/03/04 04:22 AM
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Quote:
No-one invented hyperloops!
ain't nobody here invented a move
we just manifesting this [censored]
at a different time.
said a random b-boy with the knowledge...
[edit:
-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]
i so do that one!
not on purpose though ]
--------------------
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Edited by coleman (12/03/04 04:26 AM)
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mech
maker of pointless avtars
Member #4853
Reged: 09/06/03
Loc: "In your ear"
209468
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12/03/04 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
No-one invented hyperloops!
ain't nobody here invented a move
we just manifesting this [censored]
at a different time.
said a random b-boy with the knowledge...
[edit:
-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]
i so do that one!
not on purpose though ]
pats cole n head (standing on toes) there there cole its ok have a biscuit
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Step (el-nombrie)
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polythene
The nice one.
Member #4685
Reged: 15/05/03
Loc: London/ Surrey
209470
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12/03/04 04:33 AM
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Ok, wasn't gonna post in here... but I didn't know there would be biscuits...
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The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.
Always make time to play in the snow.
Yo ho ho and a bottle of thumbs - Bugis
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UsedCarOnlyFord
I passed my driving test, its a 1991 Ford transit
Member #1881
Reged: 17/04/02
Loc: Whales
209472
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12/03/04 04:35 AM
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munch...
this is turning into an intro thread, now there is all this talk of biscuits...
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My other car is imaginary - I have a van
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mech
maker of pointless avtars
Member #4853
Reged: 09/06/03
Loc: "In your ear"
209473
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12/03/04 04:35 AM
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well i thought it was getting a lil tence, and a lil starngly circular in argument, and as a newbie! felt that to apease the older wiser spinners that biccies would be good!
esp HOBKNOBS
 both milk and...
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Step (el-nombrie)
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Durbs
Classically British
Member #659
Reged: 23/09/01
Loc: Guildford, Surrey, England
209476
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12/03/04 04:36 AM
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Quote:
-"Try it without the poi first"
Best way to teach the weave IMHO...
But otherwise I agree with Jon.
If I'm teaching (which I LOVE more than spinning sometimes) I'm always strict on nailing the basics. Same when I'm teaching drum-kit - Pupils always put on their current favourite track (often Blink 182) and ask me to teach them that. Ok, Blink's an extreme cos it takes practice to get to those speeds, but what's the point in teaching them a song if they can't even play a basic groove.
You could teach a child to play Mozart, but it wouldn't mean they could play piano...
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"It's times like this I wish I'd listened to my mother"
"Why? What did she say?"
"I don't know - I wasn't listening"
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mech
maker of pointless avtars
Member #4853
Reged: 09/06/03
Loc: "In your ear"
209478
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12/03/04 04:38 AM
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not at all jon, this thread is just repeating what countelss threads have already said, that older spinners resent the fact that somtimes moves they have talken a long tim eto learn are being nailed by newbies cos they have been well rehearsed, and can be tought better than some one taught you cos they were new!
belive me man, this aint an attack, and while anyone i have asked has always shown me moves, i like somple moves to look good before i go to higher moves like hyerloops and so on, but i will learn them, and then teach others, but pls dont tar all newbies with same brush, see i bring biccies to win you over!
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Step (el-nombrie)
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