Mint Sauce
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Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?find similar
02/09/07 03:19 AM
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Is Intelligent Design a Theory or a Critique?
Can anyone please direct me towards a theory of intelligent design the dose not involve the disregarding of evolution. I'm am very interested in the subject but for the life of me I cant find any theory’s on intelligent design that stand up on there own without bringing into the discussion on how other theory’s are wrong.
What I am looking for is a theory that stands up on its own without the need to discredit other theory’s so I can make my own mind up.
(I am not a believer of intelligent design but am very disappointed in all the information I have found on it how can they even consider being taken seriously if they don’t have a theory that stand up on its own)
or am I mistaken and intelligent design is not a theory (as many would have you believe) and it is just a critique of other theory’s of how live came into being and how we have the diversity we see today.
I don’t want a discussion on intelligent design V evolution (that’s hear)
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Rouge Dragon
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02/09/07 09:36 AM
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It's a critique.
"intelligent design" is what they started calling "creationism" to make it sound more scientific and therefore to give it some sort of standing to be taught in schools under science, rather than under religion. Why? To discredit evolutionism.
The way I see it is that creationism is the theory, but intelligent design is the critique.
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jarle
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02/09/07 09:44 PM
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One of my uni classes this year is 'History of Ideas', which is basically a history of philosophy/science.
You may want to read about a guy called 'Linnaeus' - a 'natural philosopher' (scientist) during the Enlightenment period, his main aim in life was to uncover the system by which God had created the world. To this end, he set about classifying life left and right and putting them into an order known as the 'Chain of Being' (he didn't make this, though I think he made a few improvements).
He was quite religious and beleived that God had created a single a single animal for each genus (small group of similar species) and that the individual species were due to adaptation to the local environment - a process God did.
I'm no expert on the subject, but I hope it helps!
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Doc Lightning
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04/09/07 07:27 PM
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Intelligent Design is neither a theory nor a critique.
It's bulldroppings.
By even paying attention to it you do it too much credit.
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Invader Xan
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04/09/07 10:35 PM
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Written by: Mint Sauce
I'm am very interested in the subject but for the life of me I cant find any theory’s on intelligent design that stand up on there own without bringing into the discussion on how other theory’s are wrong.
Unfortunately, the basic premise of all the Intelligent Design arguments I've read pretty much goes like this: "You might be wrong, therefore I'm right". Seems like the only reason it exists is to discredit evolution.
It's not a theory because it makes no testable or observable predictions. It's not a critique because it certainly doesn't provide an accurate review of any information or literature -- though it does tell a lot of lies about scientific "facts", as well as flagrantly mis-quoting Charles Darwin amongst other scientists.
It's a belief. Pure and simple. And it should stop dressing up in science's clothes -- they really don't suit it.
-------------------- "Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art." --Konstantin Stanislavisky
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Stone
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05/09/07 12:16 AM
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Hi Mint Sauce,
It’s a very good question.
Written by:
Can anyone please direct me towards a theory of intelligent design the dose not involve the disregarding of evolution?
I think the theory you seek, is contained in a book called the Bible. On the first day .. Genesis, Chapter One.
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robnunchucks
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05/09/07 12:39 AM
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I think the theory you seek, is contained in a book called the Bible. On the first day .. Genesis, Chapter One.
actualy even that isn't uncontested theres a non-chrisian group in america who are also avid inteligent design suporters. however they think that the "inteligence" was aliens who came down to earth created hummans (and the egypten pyramids) then buggered off
and i know where your comeing from mint sauce i spent ages looking for something similar a while back but unforutnaly it doesn't seem to exist.
i think the reason it doesn't exists is as follows inteligent design is basicly a rebranded verision of creationism. it was rebranded to try and make it non-religiou enough to push into public schools. however to do that they have had to remove all religous refrences and material from the theory.
unfortunatly for them thats pritty much all of it leaveing them with only vauge refrences to some intelgience and alot of hand waveing
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Sambo_Flux
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05/09/07 01:13 AM
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Written by: Invader Xan
Seems like the only reason it exists is to discredit evolution.
Agreed. I think it's also worth noting that most current thinking on Intelligent Design originates from The Discovery Institute, an american "think tank" dedicated to legitimising this weak pseudo science and pushing for it to be taught in schools. The website is obviously very polished (these people have a lot of money to throw around), and even denies being a religious organisation (in the FAQ section).
Doing a little digging however will turn up the fact that the institute itself was deliberately founded to deploy the Wedge Strategy. Scary stuff. And here is the Discovery institutes official response. They call it an "urban myth", then fully admit publishing it. Meh?
ID isn't a critique, or a theory in itself. It's a thinly disguised attack on a fundamental principle of modern science, propogated by people who are too indoctrinated and scared to allow any other way of thinking. This type of fundamentalism is dangerous, and I have serious issues with ID being taught in science classrooms, other than to be ridiculed. In RE classes, fine, not a problem, but it's NOT SCIENCE.
Grrrrrr. This really gets my heckles up.
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faithinfire
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05/09/07 01:47 AM
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Ummm no, intelligent design is that there was a divine maker who set things in motion. Period. The Original Mover.
Intelligent Design is NOT mutually exclusive of evolution.
Intelligent Design is NOT creationism.
-------------------- Faith
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Rouge Dragon
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05/09/07 01:51 AM
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How is it not creationism? How is it different?
-------------------- i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
I saw a car run a red light today. Therefore all drivers are bad Motorist logic in reverse
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Sambo_Flux
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05/09/07 02:00 AM
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I thought the premise of ID was that it doesn't have to be a god, merely an intelligent designer, or designers. In fact, ID proponents avoid religious terms, on the grounds that ID ISN'T a religious idea.
So how come you're using the word "divine" Faith? That's a religious term.
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Rouge Dragon
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05/09/07 02:02 AM
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So why was intelligent design coined by the churchies if it's not about a god?
-------------------- i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
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Sambo_Flux
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05/09/07 02:26 AM
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It's churchiness in disguise!
*plays transformers noise*
It's more about discrediting Darwin. I note that it's generally only evolution that gets attacked by the religious right. I reckon it's because evolution is the only scientific theory that DIRECTLY contradicts the bible. The churches can't have millions of kids running around thinking that a sound scientific theory that directly contradicts their religious beliefs is the correct one, so they invent a plausible "alternative", dress it up in scientific language, teach it in Science classrooms, and suddenly creationism doesn't seems so ridiculous to the kids anymore. And George Bush supports this. *shudder*
Faith: If Intelligent design is not exclusive of Evolution, why then do nearly all the major proponents of it (especially the ones with doctorates) insist on attacking evolution and coming up with ideas like "irreducible complexity" to discredit it?
Edited by Sambo_Flux (05/09/07 03:53 AM)
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Rouge Dragon
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05/09/07 02:28 AM
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thats pretty much how i see it too. it's a scam. like the nigerian lottery
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faithinfire
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05/09/07 03:03 AM
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Creationism is that God created it all in 7 days.
I used divine because I am catholic. Use the spagetti monster if you want to
Because there are always quacks out there and those are the ones that are most vocal
-------------------- Faith
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The Tea Fairy
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05/09/07 03:18 AM
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Um, can't access the last link Sambo! Would like to read it, sounds interesting.
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faithinfire
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05/09/07 03:30 AM
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Irreducible complexity I believe, could be wrong, is that there is a first mover, the watchmaker. The programmer for an AI software.
-------------------- Faith
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Invader Xan
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05/09/07 03:47 AM
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See? The idea in itself is quite interesting, when taken as a philosophical (if not strictly religious) concept. But it isn't science, and it irks me that it pretends to be. If anything, it's a philosophy.
Though when people start to have faith in a philosophy, it starts to look a lot like a religion...
-------------------- "Love the art in yourself and not yourself in the art." --Konstantin Stanislavisky
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Sambo_Flux
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05/09/07 04:46 AM
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Faith, not quite, that's the idea of ID as a whole. Irreducible complexity is an argument used by ID Scientists to discredit evolution. Here's an explanation:
And here's why it shouldn't be taught in schools.
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Stone
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05/09/07 09:09 AM
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I never felt that evolution was a direct contradict to my religious beliefs growing up as a Catholic. I agree, I think it’s more about discrediting Darwin. From my point of view, I just don’t think Darwin’s religious contemporaries ever got over the fact that he suggested they were closely related to monkeys. I’d suggest they thought they were created specially by god, and considered themselves vastly superior to all other creatures on the planet.
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Poje
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05/09/07 09:20 AM
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i never understood why creationism and evolution clashed so badly. Why cant some religious people beleive that just because their god created things, the things are able to change and adapt?
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Invader Xan
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05/09/07 09:27 AM
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Those are my thoughts entirely...
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robnunchucks
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05/09/07 11:52 AM
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poje
i never understood why creationism and evolution clashed so badly. Why cant some religious people beleive that just because their god created things, the things are able to change and adapt?
its a nice idea but that still contradicts what the evidence and current theorys regarding evolution. the problem is if we assume evolution is correct. which has been increadably convinceingly estabished over the last 150 years, i meen it predicted the discovery of genetics amongst other things. then we are left with only one posable role for god to play.
to put it simply if evolution is true then this is what god did at most
first god creates a single simple self replicateing chemical and puts it on earth. Then over then next four and a half billion years he creates tiny point mutations but is very carful to ensures that the point mutations are statisicaly indistinguisable from what we would expect to see if the mutations were occureing at random.
but heres the kicker non of it was needed god is totaly pointless in this process it would have happend perfectly well without his intervention
this is the threat to religion evolution posess. evolution doesn't disprove the existance of god it just shows he is a totaly unnecessary part of it.
Edited by robnunchucks (05/09/07 12:45 PM)
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Mint Sauce
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05/09/07 11:59 AM
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Thanks Sambo_Flux these made for some very interesting reading.
and FireTom did you even read my original post or just the title??
Written by: Mint Sauce
I don’t want a discussion on intelligent design V evolution (that’s hear)
Written by: Sambo_Flux
*plays transformers noise*
LOL (a lot) very good
Written by: Sambo_Flux
I reckon it's because evolution is the only scientific theory that DIRECTLY contradicts the bible.
Humm not sure there are lots of thing in the bible that Science has proved wrong but I think evolution is such a big and still developing theory that they think they can pull it apart.
Example: at 01:02 (or 06:40 depending if its countting down or up??)
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02/09/07 09:36 AM
Mint, done a search? 
