Mr_Chutney
Tosser
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Reged: 18/04/03
Loc: Herefordshire
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Re: PoiGeek.com - Thoughts, opinions etc  find similar
15/05/08 12:16 AM
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I guess it depends on the relative quality of the videos; many poi 'tutorials' are simply videos of a move, occasionally from different angles. If free videos were created with a good commentary (see durb's 1.5 tutorial for example) I don't see the market for such a site.
Naming: I recall discussion back in the day of the poidia on Spherculism when despite general consensus, some members of the discussions refused to go with the most commonly held term and persisted with their own. I think that an individual's choice is fine if they are aware that they are breaking convention (to know this implies a knowledge of convention so meaning can be retained in discussions) but to teach under a completely different naming structure is counter-intuitive. Whether this a purposeful marketing ploy I can't comment.
I don't have a problem with someone trying to make money from their talent, I just don't see a site such as this as being a particularly good way of doing it.
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There is no book that can tell you what happened after you're dead except one written by a dead person and dead people don't write. All you have to do is go and and look at a lot of dead people, they're not writing, they just aren't.
Stephen Fry
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Durbs
Classically British
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15/05/08 01:13 AM
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Er - i'd say my "1.5 tutorial" is a bad example of this as A) it's the wrong name (Now called "Not 1.5s") and B) I'm not doing a commentry 
Carry on 
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"It's times like this I wish I'd listened to my mother"
"Why? What did she say?"
"I don't know - I wasn't listening"
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Mr_Chutney
Tosser
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15/05/08 03:35 AM
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I'm confusing it with the swishy swishy one then 
 Sorry
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There is no book that can tell you what happened after you're dead except one written by a dead person and dead people don't write. All you have to do is go and and look at a lot of dead people, they're not writing, they just aren't.
Stephen Fry
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Mynci
Macaque of all trades
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15/05/08 04:00 AM
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I see it as basically a DVD for poi without the costs of producing the actual DVD but if GG is famed on HoP the leading online community why not use it's terminology for moves?
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see no evil, hear no evil, speak B*llocks
Likes tail 
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Yakumo
Hyperlight zealot
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15/05/08 04:40 AM
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I was thinking well over a year ago, when considering how to get any income, that this was one of the only ways to make money teaching poi, but I didn't do it for several reasons :
I don't have the skill or recognition of other artists such as meenik
I figured it would ostracise me from the community as a sell out
I just didn't have the boobies
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Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously
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PyroWill
HoP's Barman,Trapped Age 6 months. Back soon
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15/05/08 06:31 AM
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Boobies do sell
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An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind
Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife
"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian
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LazyAngel
random guy
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15/05/08 09:14 AM
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and there was me thinking that this would be a revamp of spherculism... *sigh*
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Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
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simta
compfuzzled
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15/05/08 09:50 PM
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Written by :Yakumo
I don't have the skill or recognition of other artists such as meenik
i think nick is a great example here, his tutorial vids are very in depth, diff angles, diff ways of thinking bout the move etc... they are of a quality far superior to PoiGeek.com
so when comparing the two is there any justification for PoiGeek charging?
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"the geeks have got you" - Gayle
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Durbs
Classically British
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15/05/08 09:57 PM
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But I'd argue, there doesn't need to be any justification...
Regardless of content, people have put alot of time and effort into making the videos. It's up to the individual whether they make their videos free or not.
You could argue the ethics of taking what you've learnt for free and then passing it on at cost - but maybe GG has locked herself away and come with it all herself so feels justified charging for it.
But then it's not charging for the moves, it's charging for the time that went into making the videos, and if they're well made, edited etc. then I don't think it's unfair to charge people.
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"It's times like this I wish I'd listened to my mother"
"Why? What did she say?"
"I don't know - I wasn't listening"
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Durbs
Classically British
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15/05/08 10:02 PM
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So... if Nick charged for his YouTube videos, would people feel happy about it? And would you pay?
Is it the fact it's a relatively unknown spinner, of dubious skill/fame that knarks people, or is it the ethics behind it?
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"It's times like this I wish I'd listened to my mother"
"Why? What did she say?"
"I don't know - I wasn't listening"
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simta
compfuzzled
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15/05/08 11:18 PM
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im not sure, sometimes i think you do need to justify charging a price for something.
but you can also argue that if people are going to pay for something they could get for free with a bit of effort then thats their lookout.
i think people wouldnt be happy if nick started charging for videos now, even though it would be fair enough.
i think it is a combination of a relatively unknown spinner to HOP, dubious skill level ( i think someone mentioned temple of arse somewhere along the line ) and slightly the ethics behind it. although if the videos were much better i dont think there would be as much fuss.
oh and the fact that the website says they are free
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"the geeks have got you" - Gayle
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87wt2gxq7
Ran taran taran taranta
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16/05/08 02:05 AM
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I wonder if there's any copyright trap here...
You pay to learn a move of poigeek, do a show and get paid for it in which you perform that move, poigeek sues you for unauthorized resale of product...
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Suddenly I miss Carpaty
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Dr_Birgit
Doctor of Poisons
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16/05/08 03:13 AM
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But then you could always claim you were doing a simple one-handed butterfly instead of the glittertastic double-twirl-opposites-show-off, no?
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(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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Mucky
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
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16/05/08 10:56 AM
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Odds are it isn't anything that shady. Somebody has something, and other people want it enough to pay for it - voila, a business! If nobody on the Internet is willing to pay for it, they will simply stop offering it.
I used to see martial arts sites like this all the time. Some were really exceptional quality, stuff you could really learn from, and others were average, on par with some of the better homemade Youtube videos, but it was all the same format, give or take a sparkling customer testimonial or two. What usually happened was that the armchair fencers got bored and stopped looking at that site and the serious students either passed it by right off the bat or decided to go find a real instructor anyway for any number of reasons. There's nothing wrong with selling what you have to offer, and that's more true on the Internet than anywhere at any time in history, because it's very low-maintenance and easy to do.
I wouldn't buy lessons from poigeek, but I would gladly donate to Nick. The difference is that he does it for the love of poi and since he's been a big inspiration to me as I've learned to spin, I'd like to give something back. Sites like Poi Geek aren't very inspirational, so at the end of the day it just feels like a business transaction.
I'm not personally familiar with Glitter Girl's history with HOP, or lack thereof, so I can't comment on that. But with stuff like this the market quickly sorts it out by itself.
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Bouncing Baby Pipe!
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newgabe
chopping wood drawing water
Member #17365
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16/05/08 11:02 PM
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Funny this has come up cos I just went on a little explore of old threads last night (the *do anything rather than uni assignment* type explore) after seeing Durbs ref to Temple of etc in another current thread. I was a bit surprised at the venom to GG that was expressed then.. and not surprised that Malcolm had locked the somewhat vitriolic threads those years ago. SO I totally support the not slagging off GG or anyone else here now approach. But it is a bit odd that someone would quote being 'endorsed' by HoP threads when most of the comments on them were so ... unenthusiastic.
As for me personally pay by move? No, of course I wouldn't when I can learn off so many people I know. And there is so much free stuff out there. But I don't have a problem in principle with people charging for the time it takes to make vids/host them etc. I know people like Meenik have been struggling for years to find a way to make a living from their skill and insight, and I myself have happily paid good money for DVDs like encyclopoida and Sphercular Vision. I've even produced one myself (from footage of the last UberOz) that people could learn heaps from... and sold it for a commercial price to cover costs and give the editors a few meals.
The naming thing could be a bit confusing but playing is more important than talking so I'm not so fussed, not worth a war. Aubergine/eggplant. Doona/duvet. Mobile/cell phone. Big deal, we can still make a meal...and communicate.. and keep warm.
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.....I remembered my power cord.... I remembered my power cord....
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jo_rhymes
Momma Bear
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Loc: Newbury!
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16/05/08 11:04 PM
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Wicked post Gabe, totally agree with you, tomayta tomato!
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Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
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newgabe
chopping wood drawing water
Member #17365
Reged: 03/03/05
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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16/05/08 11:22 PM
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I just went to have a little looksee at the site and some of the free trailers and it looks fair enough to me. Not sure how good the actual breakdown lessons are.. but from the freebie it's pretty clear to see what is being offered and to make a choice about if you want to pay to, as it says, have it 'broken down so you can pick it up'. A lot of us would be able to get the idea, pick it up and teach ourselves just from what is there for free... . Good luck to her I reckon. And hey, she's not a skinny boy with long arms so she gets my vote just for that
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.....I remembered my power cord.... I remembered my power cord....
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Mr_Chutney
Tosser
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17/05/08 12:10 AM
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I'm not sure the naming issue is quite as clear as you make it Gabe; most of us are brought up with Duvet's or cell phones etc.
The point with poi naming conventions is that the patterns we use in poi are almost completely alien to someone when they start spinning, so the name they are taught is their only reference. The reason there is no problem with cell/mobile phones, Duvet's or doona's, is that both names are recognised, despite a local preference to a particular name.
If poi is taught with one name, then someone hears another, it is unlikely that a fresh spinner will have any inkling that the two are synonymous. I suggest that this creates at best a hindrance and at worst a barrier.
Names take a long time to come into common use on a wide scale, once those names are established it can appear belidgerent to ignore such conventions or rename without good reason.
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There is no book that can tell you what happened after you're dead except one written by a dead person and dead people don't write. All you have to do is go and and look at a lot of dead people, they're not writing, they just aren't.
Stephen Fry
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simta
compfuzzled
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17/05/08 12:23 AM
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there are problems with that approach to naming of things. i think we would all love to have a unified poi language. a set of unit terms that can be built up to describe things.
therefore describing a 1 long arm/1 short arm weave is more descriptive to someone who doesnt know the move than the "archer weave" is, even though the archer bit of it does describe it to an extent.
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"the geeks have got you" - Gayle
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newgabe
chopping wood drawing water
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17/05/08 12:41 AM
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For that particular move, I think Archer is a great name. Let's all use it!
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.....I remembered my power cord.... I remembered my power cord....
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simta
compfuzzled
Member #32842
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17/05/08 01:12 AM
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yeah but the problem with that is if someone has never heard of it, they would be hard pressed to work out what it is from the name, but if you call it longarm-shortarm-weave, a lot easier to work out.
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"the geeks have got you" - Gayle
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LazyAngel
random guy
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17/05/08 01:19 AM
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wow.. got me posting something moderately sensible in discussion for once...
when you're a beginner, I really don't think the name of the move matters that much: 'Archer', 'longarm/shortarm', 'reaching inside the cow'....
so long as you can see what the move is and figure out how to do it, it's still teaching you basic elements of coordination in a way that's understandable.
I'd agree though, that when you reach the intermediate-advanced level, it helps to start breaking things down, as people get into the idea of 'there are no moves, simply endless variations', at which point, terms like longarm, shortarm, antispin, isolation etc all start to become rather useful.
I've made the mistake in the past of trying to explain the 'no move' theory to people who've been newbies and often received blank stares. I think it can actually be disheartening for some people when they realise what a mountain there is to climb.
Whereas if you say, 'learn this move, its called the archer' its nice and simple, no further explanation required
on a side note, I think its nice to see how GG's spinning has improved since CoL5, although I totally don't agree with the reference to HoP on her website.
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Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
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hamamelis
Groupie
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17/05/08 02:01 AM
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Just on the names thing.. I know it makes life awkward to work out what people are talking about when everyone has different names for stuff, but it *does* make it sound more interesting..
(anyone else a Pratchett fan.. Leonard of Quirm anyone..?)
I suspect they won't do very well on that site, so it probably won't matter what we think of it.. You do really of need a better reputation to sell stuff 'blind' for long.. That's not really inspiring. 
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Makes a man healthy, wealthy and dead.
Proudly Owned by FireTom.
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willworkforfoodjnr
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17/05/08 02:49 AM
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I think everyone should have their own name for every move, poi is too easy to understand, we need to add something interesting or we'll all be bored of it next week.
Excuse me, I'm off to go practice "Poking the bear in the eye"
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simta
compfuzzled
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17/05/08 02:55 AM
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Written by :Mr_Chutney
to teach under a completely different naming structure is counter-intuitive
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"the geeks have got you" - Gayle
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