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Waist Wrap

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#837505 - 26/08/07 04:20 AM Waist Wrap
sp1ke333 Member Registered: 14/05/07	Hello everyone! I looked for videos\tutorial regarding WW but I found only two videos by someone (sorry, forgot your name :P) and i can't see them, dont know why though. Is there any tutorial somewhere, maybe something new that has been posted recently? Thank you very much!
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#837506 - 26/08/07 05:29 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: sp1ke333]
TheBovrilMonkey Liquid Cow Registered: 03/09/01 Loc: High Wycombe, England	Have a look at this helpful thread Also, have a look at this helpful book - Anna Jillings' Modern Club Swinging and Pole Swinging. Although the whole thing is well worth a read, you'd be after chapter 17 - waist circles and waist wraps. Edit, there's also this video in the free lessons section of this site. It only shows a behind the back half waistwrap though. Edited by TheBovrilMonkey (26/08/07 05:40 AM) _________________________ But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
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#837507 - 26/08/07 09:33 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: TheBovrilMonkey]
PinkNigel Pinker than thou Registered: 04/05/06 Loc: A little pink world all my own...	I personally disagree with the Anna Jillings book (and with as much as I read of the other HoP thread) - there are 4 circles in a waist wrap, not 3 (-and-a-carry), if you learn a 3 circle version then the 4th circle is a sloppy mess and makes the whole pattern look bad. So - if I say 2-beat weave, do you know what I mean? (I'm a club swinger, I don't really understand this poi-talk... ) OK, so take that 2-beat weave and do it on one side of your body in what I believe is "Wall plane" (goes through both your shoulders? That plane anyway) with one of the circles behind your back and the other in front. Make sure the clubs/poi/gerbils on strings/whatever stay under your arms throughout (so if you're doing it on your left side then the whole thing is happening between your left arm and your body).When you're happy and comfortable with that, use one of the front circles as the time you've got to swap the "weave" over to the other side of you (again with it all under your arms). Keep going there a while then use a front circle to go back to the side you started on. Now shorten the time that you stay on each side of your body, and keep shortening it until you're only doing one circle behind on each side, and all the front circles aare transitions from one side to the other. You're now doing the front half of waist wrap. The back half is much the same, but you have to take an arm behind your back and use the back circles as the transitions. To join them together there's a certain amount of fudging transition circles which isn't easy to describe, play around and see what you can do.. _________________________ A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
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#837508 - 26/08/07 10:33 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: PinkNigel]
TheBovrilMonkey Liquid Cow Registered: 03/09/01 Loc: High Wycombe, England	Written by: PinkNigel So - if I say 2-beat weave, do you know what I mean? (I'm a club swinger, I don't really understand this poi-talk... ) OK, so take that 2-beat weave and do it on one side of your body in what I believe is "Wall plane" (goes through both your shoulders? That plane anyway) with one of the circles behind your back and the other in front. Make sure the clubs/poi/gerbils on strings/whatever stay under your arms throughout (so if you're doing it on your left side then the whole thing is happening between your left arm and your body).When you're happy and comfortable with that, use one of the front circles as the time you've got to swap the "weave" over to the other side of you (again with it all under your arms). Keep going there a while then use a front circle to go back to the side you started on. Now shorten the time that you stay on each side of your body, and keep shortening it until you're only doing one circle behind on each side, and all the front circles are transitions from one side to the other. You're now doing the front half of waist wrap. Emphasis mine. How d'you stop your arms getting tangled when you're doing the 4th circle? Surely if you do a whole circle in front of you to move back to the side you started on, you're either doing some weird twisty arm movements or adding enough beats to turn it into a fountain? I'm very confused now _________________________ But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
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#837509 - 26/08/07 10:15 PM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: TheBovrilMonkey]
PinkNigel Pinker than thou Registered: 04/05/06 Loc: A little pink world all my own...	You move from front to back/back to front when your gerbils are pointing at the ground, yes?.. So the second and the fourth "circles" are mirrors of each other ("circles" not circles as the centre has become a straight line the width of your hips), and you don't get tangled on the 4th in the same way you don't get tangled on the 2nd. The only unpleasant twisty arm bit comes with the following hand on the third circle as it has to push up in an odd direction. A maybe key bit I missed out in my last post is that your palms face behind you throughout the move (both front and back parts) _________________________ A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
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#837510 - 26/08/07 10:58 PM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: PinkNigel]
TheBovrilMonkey Liquid Cow Registered: 03/09/01 Loc: High Wycombe, England	I'm crap at understanding written descriptions of moves but that sounds much more like a fountain than a waistwrap. The difference as I understand it is that a fountain is essentially just doing weave turns back and forward with a bit of body positioning to emphasise the difference, but that a waistwrap has the carry - otherwise it's a fountain. When you're doing a full waistwrap, how does the 4th circle fit in to moving the clubs behind you for the behind the back part? I think I'm going to have to unpack my clubs and have a play _________________________ But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
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#837511 - 27/08/07 03:57 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: TheBovrilMonkey]
PinkNigel Pinker than thou Registered: 04/05/06 Loc: A little pink world all my own...	Now to me a fountain is forward cross and follow (3-beat weave, I believe you youngsters call it... ), -> reverse cross and follow -> windmill -> forward cross and follow etc (windmill being a circle in front of your face, then one behind your head, in front, behind etc etc) without any hanging around in any of the individual moves. So the only similarity there is the windmill part, being one circle in front then one behind, where the rest is all 3-beat stuff. Waist wrap is all 2-beat, like a vertical helicopter move (or spiral, or something, y'know, one horizontal circle below your arms then one above your arms...) With the full waist wrap the lead hand does its 4th circle as the 1st circle of the next part, while the following hand does its transition on the third circles. So where keeping on one side (front or back) has 4 circles, the full waist wrap has 6 (hey, it's doing my head in trying to turn this into a written description, I won't blame you if you can't follow what I mean here...) It occurred to me earlier that this could all get even more confusing, since what I mean by the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th circles could just as well be the 3rd, 4th, 1st and 2nd circles. However, the natural way round to do it is to count circle one as on the same side of your body as the lead hand. This means that circle 2 feels a lot more like a full circle than 4 does cos you're really doing a wee bit of antispin in circle 4 if you think in terms of the line between your hips being a segment of a large circle... I'm going to go play with 3,4,1,2 instead of 1,2,3,4, so next time I do a waist wrap workshop there'll be a whole new bit to talk about (would've been much easier for you to get this if you'd come to my workshop at play... ) _________________________ A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
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#837512 - 27/08/07 05:41 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: PinkNigel]
TheBovrilMonkey Liquid Cow Registered: 03/09/01 Loc: High Wycombe, England	Ah, I think this may be something we'll have to agree to disagree on. I use the Jillings book as a reference for pretty much everything and you're using a different definition of the fountain (the Jillings one doesn't have the extra windmill parts at the top) Still, windmill circle at the top or not, at least it seems we agree on the rest I was planning to go to your workshop, but true to form I lost track of time _________________________ But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
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#837513 - 27/08/07 07:22 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: TheBovrilMonkey]
PinkNigel Pinker than thou Registered: 04/05/06 Loc: A little pink world all my own...	Written by: TheBovrilMonkey I use the Jillings book as a reference for pretty much everything and you're using a different definition of the fountain (the Jillings one doesn't have the extra windmill parts at the top) Er.. yea it does.. it's just that the circles behind you happen over the shoulders instead of behind your head... (fig. 18.4 in her book..) Soz, I didn't describe that bit very well. So if you use the Jillings book then I can do the other way of describing/teaching a waist wrap.. Do a low reel (chapter 7 p31) with the gerbils swinging parallel, out of time. When you're comfy, use a front circle to carry a gerbil across to the other side of your body so the next back circle with that gerbil happens on the wrong side of your body for that arm (and under the other arm). Use the next front circle to carry the gerbil back to where it's supposed to be. Get comfy again, then do the same thing with the other gerbil. Gradually reduce your "getting comfy time" until it's not there at all. You are now doing the front part of waist wrap. Repeat using back circles as transitions to get the back part. Pay attention to fig. 7.6 when doing the front bit (otherwise you end up doing half waist wrap, half "low fountain" (as Anna calls it)). _________________________ A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
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#837514 - 27/08/07 08:11 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: PinkNigel]
TheBovrilMonkey Liquid Cow Registered: 03/09/01 Loc: High Wycombe, England	Written by: PinkNigel Er.. yea it does.. it's just that the circles behind you happen over the shoulders instead of behind your head... (fig. 18.4 in her book..) Soz, I didn't describe that bit very well. Which turns them into shoulder circles instead of windmill-like behind your head ones. To me, a fountain is a 3 beat move which is just forwards weave -> weave turn with your arms low -> backwards weave -> weave turn with your arms high, with every turn made as soon as possible, so there are no extra beats anywhere. The half waistwrap would be a 2 beat move that breaks down into forward alternating time low reel -> alternating time turn -> backwards alternating time low reel -> carry back to the start, again done with no extra beats anywhere. Again - I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, especially since we seem to have such an exclusive difference in opinion. shrug 'tis just club moves anyway, they're fundamentally the same. _________________________ But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
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#837515 - 27/08/07 08:42 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: TheBovrilMonkey]
UnscrupulousChavOffersFoot Silly Chavs Registered: 17/04/02 Loc: Whales	Written by: thebovrilmonkey different definition of the fountain classic... _________________________ Do not kick wallman. He will eat your leg. No joke.
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#837516 - 27/08/07 01:40 PM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: TheBovrilMonkey]
PinkNigel Pinker than thou Registered: 04/05/06 Loc: A little pink world all my own...	Written by: TheBovrilMonkey Written by: PinkNigel Er.. yea it does.. it's just that the circles behind you happen over the shoulders instead of behind your head... (fig. 18.4 in her book..) Soz, I didn't describe that bit very well. Which turns them into shoulder circles instead of windmill-like behind your head ones. Fair enough, I always thought of that bit as windmill cos I learned the move as "do a bit of cross and follow, do a bit of reverse cross and follow, do a bit of windmill" Written by: TheBovrilMonkey To me, a fountain is a 3 beat move which is just forwards weave -> weave turn with your arms low -> backwards weave -> weave turn with your arms high, with every turn made as soon as possible, so there are no extra beats anywhere. But doesn't "weave turn with your arms high" not necessarily include the circle behind your head? Is that not, in fact, an "extra beat" - or actually two extra beats? Compared to the arms low one it is... Written by: TheBovrilMonkey The half waistwrap would be a 2 beat move that breaks down into forward alternating time low reel -> alternating time turn -> backwards alternating time low reel -> carry back to the start, again done with no extra beats anywhere. Ah, but low reel has hands on the same side of the body as the shoulder they belong to.. And other than that I don't follow what you mean by "forward [...] low reel" and "backward [...] low reel", those terms don't compute with what I know as waist wrap.. So where did Sp1ke333 go? Does he mind that we hijacked the thread to have our own little chat about tthis? _________________________ A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
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#837517 - 27/08/07 11:05 PM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: PinkNigel]
TheBovrilMonkey Liquid Cow Registered: 03/09/01 Loc: High Wycombe, England	Written by: PinkNigel But doesn't "weave turn with your arms high" not necessarily include the circle behind your head? Yep, it doesn't include the circle behind your head because a fountain doesn't have one - it has a pair of shoulder circles and a circle in front of your head. Written by: Ah, but low reel has hands on the same side of the body as the shoulder they belong to.. And other than that I don't follow what you mean by "forward [...] low reel" and "backward [...] low reel", those terms don't compute with what I know as waist wrap.. Yeah, low reel was the wrong term to use really, but it's the best I could think of, I suppose a better description would be a 2 beat cross follow. The forwards and backwards was fairly arbitrary too, the same way that forwards and backwards weave is arbitrary if you're spinning a move in wall plane. Not intending to drag this off topic any further, but are you planning to go to Bristol? It'd be good to chat about this in person _________________________ But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
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#837518 - 28/08/07 12:23 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: TheBovrilMonkey]
Stone Carpal \'Tunnel Registered: 13/06/01 Loc: Melbourne	Hi PinkNigel, I’m loving this club swinging talk. Though, I’ll have to fully read some of your descriptions. Written by: I personally disagree with the Anna Jillings book (and with as much as I read of the other HoP thread) - there are 4 circles in a waist wrap, not 3 (-and-a-carry), if you learn a 3 circle version then the 4th circle is a sloppy mess and makes the whole pattern look bad. Anna Jillings describes the waist wrap really well. I think the confusion starts when we mistake what Anna Jillings calls a waist wrap with the “fountain”. The fountain being what’s described as two beat waist wrap all joined together. When you don’t do the carry you add an extra circle and start to do the upper fountain. What you seem to be describing is the twister or tying the knot; tangle and double tangle aka bloody hard See Schatz's Club Swinging Book. There is a fountain at media circus dvd’s and videos. Reach up to add the top bit to the upper fountain. Hi Bovril, I agree, I'm going to have get out my clubs and have a play. Spring is in the air. Cheers _________________________ The ingredients of health and long life are Great temperance, open air, Indian Clubs, little care.
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#837519 - 28/08/07 02:54 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: Stone]
sp1ke333 Member Registered: 14/05/07	thank you guys for the advices...however it's still complex to figure it out for me. Hope to get an illumination or something during my trainings or that someone will post a video tutorial somewhere thanks again
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#837520 - 28/08/07 03:46 AM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: TheBovrilMonkey]
PinkNigel Pinker than thou Registered: 04/05/06 Loc: A little pink world all my own...	Written by: TheBovrilMonkey Not intending to drag this off topic any further, but are you planning to go to Bristol? It'd be good to chat about this in person I shall definitely be at Bristol for the first weekend, but I have to register at uni on the Monday, after which it depends upon my timetable for the first week as to whether I get back down. You could always come to Manchester Juggling Convention on October 6th if we're not at Bristol at the same time... _________________________ A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
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#837521 - 08/09/07 12:20 PM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: PinkNigel]
thombre member Registered: 06/10/06 Loc: Nottingham	Can the waist wrap be achieved by going from btb forwards and reverse weaves, but in the wall plane? I have tried this and it seems to feel like what I imagine a waist wrap would feel like. (is this making sense?) _________________________ Buy gerbils cos you can't spin with hamsters
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#837522 - 08/09/07 12:30 PM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: Old-User--43917]
_khan_ old hand Registered: 17/11/04 Loc: San Francisco, California, USA	Written by: Dashers Can the waist wrap be achieved by going from btb forwards and reverse weaves, but in the wall plane? I have tried this and it seems to feel like what I imagine a waist wrap would feel like. (is this making sense?) Yes, it's a matter of turning your body approx. 90 degrees toward the poi but keeping the poi on the same plane. i.e., the plane change is achieved by re-orienting your body, not the poi. _________________________ taken out of context i must seem so strange ~ ani di franco
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#837523 - 08/09/07 05:36 PM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: Old-User--43917]
PinkNigel Pinker than thou Registered: 04/05/06 Loc: A little pink world all my own...	Written by: Dashers Can the waist wrap be achieved by going from btb forwards and reverse weaves, but in the wall plane? I have tried this and it seems to feel like what I imagine a waist wrap would feel like. (is this making sense?) If you mean 3-beat weave, no. Kinda close, but no... _________________________ A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
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#837524 - 10/09/07 09:27 PM Re: Waist Wrap [Re: Old-User--43917]
simian monkey Registered: 11/10/02 Loc: London	Written by: Dashers Can the waist wrap be achieved by going from btb forwards and reverse weaves, but in the wall plane? I have tried this and it seems to feel like what I imagine a waist wrap would feel like. (is this making sense?) Hello Dashers in answer to your question: both Nigel and Khan are correct. The answer is YES and NO. Welcome to the most wonderful and awesome world of spinning terminology
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