hey tim
some thoughts:
for one, if find it very interesting to enter a pattern with loads of different objects, every objekt makes the "same" movement, but itīs also sliightly different, and every different information about the same pattern makes you think more about the pattern and gives you better understanding -make sence ?
maybe when you play 3 clubs shower you might find out a details which you wonīt get from staff...hm but asll this is quite hard to demonstrate via internet and writing
so anyway, i found it pretty useful for training and exploring loads of different patters, rather than just train 1- donīt get me wrong tim, you know how much i love you 4 staff shower, but for me itīs 3 staff and loads of variations what makes it interesting..
to come back what master glenneroo said, who by the way is a genius in so many different things, you wonīt belive
everything you learn will influence your understanding, a little example: my parents paid me 16 years of druming lesson..i am boring at drumming, but my understanding of rhythm i got from this, is still the basic of all my juggling systems i developed for me, even he structure of my training. so if something like drumming influences my staff spinning, why not balls, or clubs, they are much closer to staffs than a bongo
but, when will we finaly meet tim ? iwould really like to chat propperly laters seb
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
tim_marston
enthusiast
Member #34445
Reged: 16/05/06
seb well put as always, for me when i watch jugglers i love the simple to understand patterns such as backcrossess,showers,etc,thats why i choose to perform them,i really want my audience to have some understanding of the patterns i display, for me crazy siteswaps and more visually complicated patterns just arent as entertaining,although i do feel a buzz knowing at some level the performer must have spent years perfecting such a pattern, ive started to put some of the footcatchging stuff into my shows and it goes down great because most people have tried to catch and throw with their feet (usually a football or a hackysack or a bag of sugar they have dropped when unloading the shopping)they seem to identify with what im tryin i to do, i am very tuned into the reaction of the crowd to my tricks and the comments they make afterwards,the plan is to create a series of tricks they love to watch and i love to perform
as for the idea of training with balls and clubs and the bigger point you made using drumming as an example i totally agree, i will confesss i disagreed just to stimulate an interesting debate and to push people on here to examine their training patterns rather than just to assume they are correct, i dont think i will start training clubs but im really enjoing playing with my balls!!!!!! im planning to learn mills mess and the box as soon as i catch up with jago for a workshop,ive also managed to reverse the three ball shower its not clean yet but will be one day
a for us meeting up sometime,if www.jugglinginferno.com goes as well as i hope i may be able to fly you over here for a free weekend provdided you in return perform under the jugglinginferno name,if not maybe a fire festival somewhere or maybe i will treat my hopefully soon to be girfriend to a weekend in vienna later dude
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
Mynci
Macaque of all trades
Member #19047
Reged: 27/04/05
Loc: wombling free... 825417
06/08/07 07:58 PM
Edit
Reply
Quote
Written by: tim_marston
"but you could make it look very technical."
mynci i dont mean to be rude but why would you want a trick to look tecnical,isnt the idea to difficult tricks look easy??
I never said make the trick look hard I said technical,
Bastl's mills mess is technical as well as the cascade he showed us that he learnt from antii with the snake wrist movement. I think a boston mess could be done whilt turning on the spot it could still LOOK easy but the technique would be clearly different hence my use of the term technical. sorry for any confusion
-------------------- see no evil, hear no evil, speak B*llocks
Likes tail
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
Irinus
member
Member #33171
Reged: 19/04/06
Loc: London 825442
06/08/07 09:50 PM
Edit
Reply
Quote
It depends if you want the trick to look difficult or easy. I'm probably not the best person to explain this but if you download this Luke Burrage podcast:
and listen for a couple of minutes from 52:35 (I'd skip the rest of this particular podcasts though he has many other good podcasts to listen to) you'll get an illustration of my point.
'The Zen of Juggling' book by Dave Finnigan should also help in developing new ideas on this topic
p.s. I'm cutting my hair off. Please sponsor me here
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
ugoAgogo
member
Member #4392
Reged: 05/04/03
Loc: Brighton / Canterbury 825694
07/08/07 11:27 PM
Edit
Reply
Quote
i treid some three staff juggling last week,
i am using staffs that are just over 1 meter in length (im not entirly sure, but they are standard broom handle length)
i did it continuosly for about 20 minutes before being to tired to continue. I was trieng to shower them (they were all going the same direction) as i have this down with two staffs perfect, and can do passes behind my back confidently,
However after doing this i became aware i had seriously damaged some muscles in my right shoulder, and have had to give all spinny/ thowing activitys a rest. This is rubbish because it is so sunny and nice at the moment!
anyhow, i hope to get this trick one day as i am pretty sure i am capable of it!
Mynci
Macaque of all trades
Member #19047
Reged: 27/04/05
Loc: wombling free... 825701
08/08/07 12:01 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
if you can juggle dude it's quite a simple step but you REALLY have to warm up all the muscle groups involved because you put a lot more strain on your body than you would think especially compared to juggling clubs.
I'm off out tomorrow for a serious session of 3 staff action I have a couple of patterns I want to try including the box and some more practice on 3 staff tennis.
-------------------- see no evil, hear no evil, speak B*llocks
Likes tail
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
bentstix
member
Member #37588
Reged: 17/07/06
Loc: Berlin 825702
08/08/07 12:03 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
Written by: ugoAgogo
i did it continuosly for about 20 minutes before being to tired to continue.
20 minutes that makes around 700-800 throws in a row, or? i wonder why you muscles hurt
maybe try it with slightly more breaks in between
@ tim
yes indeed i do play sometimes with balls and clubs
not train them though but play with them
since they're easy on the body the patterns that i can do with sticks , i can do them as well with the other toys
i just recently tried the 4 ball shower that i never trained before , and could do my 15 catches at the first try same with clubs
and of course for variations its always good to get the concept with the lighter toys - less pain but maybe you like that
cu at some point josh
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
ugoAgogo
member
Member #4392
Reged: 05/04/03
Loc: Brighton / Canterbury 825720
08/08/07 01:43 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
i know this now!!!!! it was more like, 3 thows, drop. drop. repeat drop repeat ect ect.
i wa just pushing for it, because i VERY nearly had it down. It just got so frustrating, being so close to getting the trick, but not quite getting there, Also if i had been doing a cascade rather than a shower, i think i would have not have hurt my body as the power would have been distrubuted from both of my arms rather than just one! im going to stick with doubles for the moment, and maybe make up some more light weight staffs for three staff juggling, Out of interest what do you guys use prop wise for three staff juggling, length weight ect. . . . or just regular fire sticks?? Shoulder is getting better now!
bastl
cross-member
Member #11489
Reged: 22/08/04
Loc: vienna / austria 825724
08/08/07 01:53 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
Written by: ugoAgogo
Out of interest what do you guys use prop wise for three staff juggling, length weight ect. . . . or just regular fire sticks??
ours are 1 metre long,
with soft cover on the ends, thick gripbands total weights of each staff 400 gramms
build first practice staffs, get patterns solid, and than think aoubt firestaffs...3 staffs needs a lot of non-fire-practice....just "some" ages
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
ugoAgogo
member
Member #4392
Reged: 05/04/03
Loc: Brighton / Canterbury 825733
08/08/07 02:30 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
ahh, makes sense,
i have been using broom handles, with weighted ends (tennisballs and plastercise) and innertube grip the whole way down.
i shall have to start making some three staff specific sticks.
i dont own any fire quipment at the moment apart from some swing clubs, i lost my "perfect" staff at Glade fest two years ago:( and the next stuff i get my mits on is going to be firetoys stuff.
fire toys are in the process of developing a fire juggling staff at the moment so keep an eye on their site for details, try learing the shower in both directions to releive the strain on your shoulder,also work on building up strength and muscle mass to help you juggle without serious injury,
irinus my opinion on luke burrage is that he should juggle more and talk less,he seems to take pleasure in being rude to people and appears to love himself a bit too much for my liking,his juggling however is pretty damm good,so thanks fella but i think ill give the podcast a miss
mynci fair point,do you perform your staff juggling?
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
Mynci
Macaque of all trades
Member #19047
Reged: 27/04/05
Loc: wombling free... 826593
10/08/07 11:34 PM
Edit
Reply
Quote
not yet I'm coming on leaps and bounds but I know it's not show quality yet I 'm working on a routine that should be ready by end of this year start of next but mainly I'm trying different patterns to see what can be done.
I'll stick with 3 sticks but I need to work a little on consistancy as my spins aren't quite acurate enough yet, sometimes I can do 40 catches sometimes I manage 3. I need to be consistently good not just "in the right mood" but I'm getting pretty good at going from 2 staffs to a leg flick straight into a 3 staff cascade from a well positioned staff on the ground.
I want to work on my behind the back throw a bit and behind the back passing shower as I think you can go from 2 to 3 staffs with the leg flick quite easily there.
-------------------- see no evil, hear no evil, speak B*llocks
Likes tail
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
bastl
cross-member
Member #11489
Reged: 22/08/04
Loc: vienna / austria 826824
12/08/07 03:08 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
Written by: tim_marston
i really want my audience to have some understanding of the patterns i display,
for me crazy siteswaps and more visually complicated patterns just arent as entertaining,although i do feel a buzz knowing at some level the performer must have spent years perfecting such a pattern,...
for one i agree, that it is very important to give audience access to your trick/idea/move..but just because shower or backcrosses are easier to "think" about (as a juggler) it doesnīt mean, that some complex sideswaps are not easy accessable for an audience...like 531 (allright, not massivly complex;) ) but its a nice sideswap, and the pictures is awesome....3 objects in different hights, "freeze" for a moment in a straight line above the head of the juggler and than break down into something else...
or 6X4 -a wonderfull picture.."nobody understands", but the way this 2 towers building up and breaking down all the time..
i find 3 staff backcrosses donīt work "so well", as normal people watch the staffs in the air, not your hand behind your body...
i love complex figures, and the challenge to find any accesspoint for non-jugglers, to show them the faszinating idea behind it...but i guess your streetshow-crowd-research would be very good preperation for finding various accesspoints..like most people played football - feet catches...
i would like to see your routine and give some feedback, i really like your way of progressing through feedback from street-crowds ..a big advantage to cooperate events...
and all meeting ideas sound good ; )
i am well up for performing under your name,
& you have to come vienna for some fentime anyway
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
ugoAgogo
member
Member #4392
Reged: 05/04/03
Loc: Brighton / Canterbury 827156
14/08/07 02:29 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
Written by: tim_marston
fire toys are in the process of developing a fire juggling staff at the moment so keep an eye on their site for details, try learing the shower in both directions to releive the strain on your shoulder,also work on building up strength and muscle mass to help you juggle without serious injury,
irinus my opinion on luke burrage is that he should juggle more and talk less,he seems to take pleasure in being rude to people and appears to love himself a bit too much for my liking,
fire toys is just round the corner from me so i may pop in and see what they have come up with, I have been doing loats of stretches before doing anymore 3 staff stuff, and am starting to do Chi - Gung exercises everyday to try and do some good to my shoulder ( my right arm is the one i damaged, but when i was 6 i seriously broke and shattered my left arm, its fully healed now but there is a noticable difference between my planes on my left compaired to my right - i know this is the same with most people, but i want to get my left and right sides a bit more balanced) loving the idea of 3 staffs at the moment, but am having just as much fun with staff on staff and crosses and am literaly soooooo close to getting the matrix down now. oh, i met luke when i was studying in staffordshire, just practicing in the park, he was really nice and although he was showing us allot of tricks (which i thought were amazing), seemed really chilled and quite down to earth just having a practice in the park. ive never seen him on stage tho.
*****whist im here anyone who juggles/spins in brighton, england get in contact with me!!! there is a severe shortage of spinners and performers meeting up regualy!!!!!**** wkd.sweet.niceone
Mynci
Macaque of all trades
Member #19047
Reged: 27/04/05
Loc: wombling free... 827480
14/08/07 11:46 PM
Edit
Reply
Quote
I know there are a load of spinners on the poipoi forum from and around brighton as that's where they are based you could ask there, although it's a national site it seems quite local.
-------------------- see no evil, hear no evil, speak B*llocks
Likes tail
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
entheogen
baton twirler wannabee
Member #17375
Reged: 04/03/05
Loc: Berlin 827565
15/08/07 04:23 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
I would be reallycareful stretching the shoulders before staff juggling ugoAgogo. In warming up its really important to get the blood flowing to the muscles. Making small and big circles with the arms, and doing things like pushups or just shrugging the shoulders in the pushup position are much more appropriate preperation for staff juggling. Although I stretch the wrist areas before juggling, I never stretch the shoulders. Any prolonged stretching actually makes the muscles weaker and more vulnerable immediatly after, and will actually increase the liklyhood of injury if you do something physically stressful like juggling stupidly heavy object. All intensive stretches should be done after the session. Then the muscles are good and tired and will give out the best results anyway.
-------------------- 'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
ugoAgogo
member
Member #4392
Reged: 05/04/03
Loc: Brighton / Canterbury 827757
15/08/07 07:22 PM
Edit
Reply
Quote
entheogen, thanks for your concern! I am aware about intensive stretching, upper body wise i do this exercise before spinning, i find it helps, let me know what you think? . . .
hands together, towards the ground infornt of me elevate hands upwards and take slow breath inwards untill hands are above my head, then slowly exhale and seperatre hands, which drop down by my sides 90 degrees adjacent to the angle they elevated in, all in one smooth movement completley linked to the breathing,
Its not a intensive muscular exercise at all, but focus's mind and as you mentioned gets the blood flowing, I usually start off with pois when i go practicing, and hold off doing flowers/antispins and full extension stuff till ready. then pic up the sticks,
bastl, i agree that some siteswaps are very beautiful,i just havent seen many of them performerd cleanly with staffs yet,im sure it will come,
as for the corporate/street discussion, i did an indoor solo routine performed to music but not strictly choroegraphed,i only dropped on one staff due to nerves and getting a bit slack with my single staff routines,sometimes its easier to perform the hard stuff than the easy?!?!?! my choreography messed up a bit because ive got stops for applause built in and the crowd was 99 percent deaf,instead of clapping they wave their hands in the air, this made me freak out and race thru my first two sections!!i sorted my self out for three staffs and finsished a big corporate variety show with two patterns on three(DROP FREE AND FAIRLY CLEAN)then some VERY fast single staff to a swipe out finish, this was an amazing feeling ive worked very hard on cleanliness and had to sacrfice the joy of learning new tricks to get rid of the drops,i see staff jugglers with loads of new tricks and its hard not to get jealous but when it all comes together and im getting paid good money to perform highly skilled juggling clean on stage indoors for corporate gigs,i know for me it was worth it, its also great to have my fast single staff really appreciated,as far as im concerned its the most skillfull and the most impressive thing i do..i hope i can keep going in this direction,i hope to perform my routines on famous variety stages one day,
mynci i look forward to seeing how you get on,i think the foot flick into three is a great idea and will be a very powerful trick for performance good luck dude
ugo,if you go into firetoys speak to william and tell him you spoke to me about juggling staffs,ive been helping him out with some ideas and im sure he will be interested in other staff jugglers,especially if they may want to spend money on staffs!!!
im working on a few new videos and think its about time we had some vids on here to watch!!!!!any offers???
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
entheogen
baton twirler wannabee
Member #17375
Reged: 04/03/05
Loc: Berlin 828515
18/08/07 09:44 AM
Edit
Reply
Quote
Ugo what you described has my approval, though I cant stress enough to everyone out there yet again who really want to juggle three staffs to combine a general overall strength training program for the shoulders and arms. This will balance out the muscles and help impede future injuries.
-------------------- 'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'
Post Extras:
Notify moderator!
tim_marston
enthusiast
Member #34445
Reged: 16/05/06
New Topic
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
paid me 16 years of druming lesson..i am boring at drumming, but my understanding of rhythm i got from this, is still the basic of all my juggling systems i developed for me, even he structure of my training. so if something like drumming influences my staff spinning, why not balls, or clubs, they are much closer to staffs than a bongo 
Notify moderator!
I'm cutting my hair off. Please sponsor me 
I'm coming on leaps and bounds but I know it's not show quality yet I 'm working on a routine that should be ready by end of this year start of next but mainly I'm trying different patterns to see what can be done. 
