i8beefy2
member
Member #4300
Reged: 24/03/03
Loc: Ohio, USA
536420
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Re: A History of the Fire Arts  find similar
31/10/05 07:42 PM
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Well, my GUESS would be that most people see these things as a cultural thing... at least the people doing the hiring usually, and so they go for authenticity and try and find a polinesian performer. As I have very limited experience in the professional area of spinning (besides the few little gigs I and my troupe do), I can't really say.
As for why they find us 'whites' heavy and boring I'm not quite sure. Im not sure what boring and 'heavy' mean... you callin' me fat?! 
Does that mean we spin slower and more artistically, rather than "really really fast" and exciting? A good spinner can do either, and depending on the audience can switch between. For instance I can dance around with a staff even at high speeds doing contact and all that and the audience loves it... other times I go really slow to showcase how much control I have and they love that too... Maybe the people they are interviewing just aren't extremely good yet?
A lot of people on here cry about it all the time. "I did all this cool complicated stuff, and the next person went on and did one move really really fast and the audience liked them more!" Personally I don't get it cause I never play to the audience... which is why I would never make it as a paid performer.
I'm really currious as to what these "promoters" meant, and WHERE you are talking about specifically. If your talking about promoters strictly for luaus that are trying to put on an "authentic" feeling show, race may be a big factor there. I mean if they just said "Make it really fast" most performers that I would think would be up to it would be able to do that just fine, albeit bored out of their skull most of the time probably...
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Stone
old skool clubswinger
Member #331
Reged: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
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01/11/05 12:30 AM
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To answer some of your questions, mr historian.
“There have been sooooo many fire toys for decades, even centuries…..Why now does it become popular?” Resurgence in circus type skill’s, busking and stuff ie. Contact juggling and New Circus like the The Flying Fruit Fly Circus in Australia.
“Why is this new trend so dominated by the staff and poi?” Well it was dominated by staff in Australia for 8 or so years. The rise in fire chains (poi) is more recent, and follows HOP.
Don’t know about it being dominated by one colour; green is difficult to make but I think blue is easier. I think they do a lot of fire spinning in South America, and much poi is done in Thailand.
“Why aren't you learning to juggle fire clubs?” Juggling three is much harder than juggling 2, and not generally as dancy. Though most of the poi moves come from club swinging.
"Why didn't the hippies in the 60's take it on, it was around then?" See ConFest.
I think the cross over came from circus or Chinese theatre or something like that. Perhaps people like Tim Furst (Fyodor Karamazov) who wrote a brief intro in The Meteor Book, and other people like that.
Perhaps someone sees something at a circus, or like Frankie Manning (Lindy hop fame) goes to a circus to find new ideas. They take the ideas to a Fringe Festival or ConFest or BM and lot’s of people go yeah, that’s for me. They go to another festival. Next thing you know, everyone’s doing it. The rise in the rave and bush doof culture may have helped dissemination.
And don’t forget the martial arts
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The ingredients of health and long life are
Great temperance, open air,
Indian Clubs, little care.
Edited by Stone (01/11/05 12:45 AM)
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bluecat
azuremog
Member #3686
Reged: 15/12/02
Loc: everywhere
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01/11/05 04:46 AM
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Written by: Stone
“Why aren't you learning to juggle fire clubs?” Juggling three is much harder than juggling 2, and not generally as dancy. Though most of the poi moves come from club swinging.
i think this is even less true than when i last argued with you about it. shall we begin again?
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Holistic Spinner (I hope)
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historian_of_fire_arts
newbie
Member #25887
Reged: 04/10/05
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01/11/05 07:31 AM
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STONE! Thank you for a confirmation. Indeed, it appears that the poi did follow the staff in about 8 years. Would any of you happen to know who the first poi people were? Hmmmm??
I am starting to get a couple of names, but it's the proof, you see, that is really the most important thig to me. It means nothing without some sort of verification. Anybody can make a claim. Someone could claim to be able to juggle four fire staffs, and have four friends who will 'swear' that he can do it, but until I see that person do it in front of me, or at least on a video, his claim will remain 'hear say', and rightly so. Dating something as to when it first took place, the guidelines are a bit more relaxed.
Again the issue of 'white' has popped up. I am familiar with whom performs with what in the world now. Brazilians, Thai, Indians, Africans, celtic rituals, polynesean, circus performers,
martial arts, Chinese performers,etc. Thank you all!
However, for twenty years an EXPLOSION of popularity for the fire arts has occured, predominately, within the 'white' race. This is undeniable. One just has to look at most of the photos that can be viewed on peoples HoP websites. Look at the people who perform at Confest, Burning Man, and festivals everywhere;
'white'. Virtually every professional fire performers website that I have visited, and there have been many, almost everyone is white. Now there are a lot of professional street performers who are NOT white, but none of them fire perform with staff or poi.
Crap, I have to get going. I will continue this later on. Peace,
Historian
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The pen is mightier than the sword
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DeepSoulSheep
________
Member #3146
Reged: 25/09/02
Loc: Ballybrack, Dublin
537141
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01/11/05 05:28 PM
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Ask Dragon7. He's the only Maori I know of that post here...
He told me about Maori people that went to the states a long time ago. And they twirled fire too....
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I live in a world of infinite possibilities.
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Glåss
Eeeeeep
Member #829
Reged: 08/11/01
Loc: Bristol
537281
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02/11/05 12:11 AM
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- of the fire arts
to be a:
"Historian" - Is a way of thinking.
"Historian" - Is a way of gathering and carefully appraising information.
"Historian" - Is a way telling a story which is supported by the facts, not in finding facts to support your theory.
"Historian" - Is a title that you earn.
I have some primary sources that are findable from 1900's, 1930's videos *2, 1970's, 1980's.
I also think but I'm not certain Red Sarah started spinning about when she was 5 and I guess that was nearly 30 years ago. You couldn't write about the second half of the 1990's without including "The Drome / Just jugglers"
Convince me that you're a good historian and I will dig them out for you.
Glass
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Glåss
Eeeeeep
Member #829
Reged: 08/11/01
Loc: Bristol
537291
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02/11/05 12:23 AM
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ps HOTFA: What's the info with this?
http://www.performers.net/forums/showthread.php?s=eb6aa551dfb9a6407bda0b788df60c14&threadid=3994
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UsedCarOnlyFord
I passed my driving test, its a 1991 Ford transit
Member #1881
Reged: 17/04/02
Loc: Whales
537299
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02/11/05 12:37 AM
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My other car is imaginary - I have a van
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mcp
The Flying Water Muppet
Member #4704
Reged: 20/05/03
Loc: Edin-borrow.
537636
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02/11/05 06:14 AM
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I bet he's like the A-Team...
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"the now legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Edited by mcp (02/11/05 08:04 AM)
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bluecat
azuremog
Member #3686
Reged: 15/12/02
Loc: everywhere
537648
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02/11/05 06:22 AM
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meg
no matter what you think of him, this is not good.
*goes off to make new thread*
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Holistic Spinner (I hope)
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Stone
old skool clubswinger
Member #331
Reged: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
537749
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02/11/05 10:00 AM
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Sad but true bluecat. But I ask you - is it less true that they light the Olympic flame with poi?
Also mr historian, try Callam at Concentrate, he's been into this stuff for quiet a while.
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The ingredients of health and long life are
Great temperance, open air,
Indian Clubs, little care.
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historian_of_fire_arts
newbie
Member #25887
Reged: 04/10/05
539623
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04/11/05 01:38 PM
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This has GOT TO BE the strangest day of my life. It is so bazarr, that I am almost at a lost for words, and that just about
NEVER happens to me. All I need now is the sound track to the Twilight Zone with Rod saying "Trapped, Trapped within a rehlm of time"... to make this whole experience complete. Where, in God's name, to begin. I'll answer a couple of questions, maybe that might help.
Glass, I couldn't convince diddilly squat right now. If you have something that will inform and improve the awareness of the people that will read my book, and help keep me honest in my intention to present nothing but the facts that have been validated by reliable sources, then groovy, I'll take 'um. Other than that, you're on your own.
A street performer e-mailed me Robert's brother's address in Amsterdam. I got his # and called him. He's totally freaked out! He hasn't heard a word from him in almost two years. He asked me if a reward would help. I told him it wouldn't hurt, and so he's offering 500 Euros to locate "Bobby". I decided to give this info first to the street performers website, since many more people there, have known Robert for a lot longer than any of you, AND seem to have a MUCH different opinion of him than some of you do. Much different! This has become ever so apparent to me after finally taking i8beefy2's advice, I looked up "Robert Heart" in the search box and read things... that...have left me...in shock.
A shock that has been extremely compounded by recieving a package this morning, Fedexed from Robert's brother, of Mr Heart's career, with the duplicate newspaper clippings, certificates, etc., of just about everything he has done up until two years ago.
I really feel like I am in the Twilight Zone. Sorry folks, but I must take my leave to work some of this out. Talk with you soon.
What ever happened to 'The Golden Rule'?
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The pen is mightier than the sword
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bluecat
azuremog
Member #3686
Reged: 15/12/02
Loc: everywhere
539797
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05/11/05 12:31 AM
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post deleted.
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Holistic Spinner (I hope)
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Glåss
Eeeeeep
Member #829
Reged: 08/11/01
Loc: Bristol
539975
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05/11/05 02:48 AM
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It's sad that this has decayed to a Discussion of robert heart.
I think he's only a very minor note in the recent history of staff and fire:
References to thread about RHeart from 3 years ago:
Duvan - juggling convention ever in waldmünchen and Spin-Bo
http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...rev=#Post140755
Approve ninja - The incredibly restrained - Non actively mean robert heart experience:
http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...ll/fpart/1/vc/1
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bluecat
azuremog
Member #3686
Reged: 15/12/02
Loc: everywhere
540487
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06/11/05 12:55 AM
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yes. sorry drew.
won't happen again. or if it does, then it'll be in private.
R
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Holistic Spinner (I hope)
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Stone
old skool clubswinger
Member #331
Reged: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
541165
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08/11/05 12:38 AM
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Arr, mr historian, it does appear that you are trying to fit facts to support your story. Initially, I thought you might be doing research for a PhD, but the quest to find a “”””hero””” seems more “60 minutes” style.
To answer your questions: “who were the first poi people?” That would probably have been Maoris from New Zealand.
“Who popularised firetwirling?” We did mr historian. Firetwirlers and jugglers like us, who attend festivals like ConFest/BM/Doof's etc, and hang out at HomeOf Poi; which incidently has been around for about eight years.
People have been doing firearts for a long time, and I think we would all like to see an authentic history told. After all, Hunter S. rode with the Hell’s Angles, and I suspect he may have even visited Vegas. For a good bibliography see Anna Jillings in her book on modern pole and club swinging.
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The ingredients of health and long life are
Great temperance, open air,
Indian Clubs, little care.
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loki.c1687
jedi
Member #9662
Reged: 13/07/04
Loc: manchester....uk
541194
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08/11/05 01:26 AM
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might try looking for the first mob in history with all those pitch forks and fire touchers some day one person must have said wow why not put them together?
mike.c
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Rules and responsibities:
These are the ties that bind us.
We do what we do,because of who we are.
If we did otherwise,we would not be ourselves.
I will do what i have to do
And i will do what i must..
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Seye
has loads of toys!
Member #18035
Reged: 27/03/05
Loc: Manchester
541362
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08/11/05 04:56 AM
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like i said before - covent garden market and glastonbury were the big ones for spreading the word in the uk.
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"He had decided to live forever or die in the attempt."
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historian_of_fire_arts
newbie
Member #25887
Reged: 04/10/05
541479
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08/11/05 07:33 AM
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Lord, what an amazing weekend. I've got a lot of things cooking on the fire right now, and I find my time thinly stretched. I have a wonderful relationship goin' on.  I have a great job with deadlines that constantly demand my attention. I have parents that I adore who are just now entering those challenging years.  I hold two degrees from Stanford University; one in Psycology, and one in Philosophy. Top of my class.
I love the human experience, but I am aware that there is so much that needs improvement. I try my best not to react to life's unpleasantries, but to take pause first, gather my thoughts, control any negative emotions that might wish to make the matter worse, and reach for some kind of a solution that enables both parties to grow in a positive direction from the experience.
I bring this up for a reason. I am aware of information that, I presume, most of you are not aware of. Information that would help you understand the human condition so much better as to define the virtues: empathy and compassion to a greater degree.
You have made a regretful mistake, to this I have NO doubt.
It's the difficulty in how to present this information to you that I am presently faced with. I usually try to avoid politics, especially when it doesn't concern me, however, the knowledge obtained from my education lends me a unique perspective on how to correct an unjustice that has been given. With your permission..?
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The pen is mightier than the sword
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bluecat
azuremog
Member #3686
Reged: 15/12/02
Loc: everywhere
541484
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08/11/05 07:41 AM
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please. at least pm it to me. i'll reply as gently and objectively as i can.
R
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Holistic Spinner (I hope)
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Stone
old skool clubswinger
Member #331
Reged: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
541545
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08/11/05 09:52 AM
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Written by:
You have made a regretful mistake, to this I have NO doubt.
Threats mr historian  If you have something to say then please get to the point, and stop beating around the bush.
We are all busy too, have wonderful relationships, double degrees etc, etc, etc… What is your point?
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The ingredients of health and long life are
Great temperance, open air,
Indian Clubs, little care.
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TheWibbler
Aotearoan Adventurer
Member #4448
Reged: 11/04/03
Loc: New Zealand
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08/11/05 01:32 PM
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Hmm... All sounds very odd. Still don't know why the focus is on the 'fire' arts and not the twirling arts which surely predate them.
I see little point in trying to pin down 1 white person who started it, since there were a thousand and 1 non whites doing it for years. Plus i've witnessed a great deal of 100 monkey mentality in the twirling community.
"You have made a regretful mistake, to this I have NO doubt." I have no idea what this is about, assume you're talking about the missing man.
I'll be sticking to the classic maori history thanks. It really is of no concern to me when the white man learnt the arts, nor when people set fire to it. I'm a human, my history is of my race, not of my skin pigment.
This thread has all gone very strange. No more riddles please.
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Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
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Glåss
Eeeeeep
Member #829
Reged: 08/11/01
Loc: Bristol
541664
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08/11/05 01:50 PM
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Historian of the Fire Arts / Paul Rule,
For many reasons what you have posted on this forum, makes me suspicious and does not ring true.
I have NO respect for you,
I do not trust you,
you are a liar and
At the moment I do not believe a single word that you have posted.
I don't know what your hidden adgenda is,
And have no interest in helping you.
I repeat, I do not believe anything that you have posted.
Some of it is no doubt true, but without independant supporting data, "it won't stand up in court"
I have many resons to believe this, But for the moment I will say this, If you lie once, I will believe that you always lie. So what I need was some hard evidence that you are delieberately misleading us.
I believe that:
You do not have 2 degrees from stamford, this is your fantasy.
By the way that you write, I sincerely doubt that you are old enough to have one.
You do not have a degree in psychology, because If you did, you would be able to spell it correctly.
(see above quote 10 posts up "..... I hold two degrees from Stanford University; one in Psycology, and one in Philosophy. Top of my class."
to missspell this once would be an accident, but to have it wrong in your intro thread too, that looks far too fishy: http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=521806.
quote "...Philosophy, sociology, history, psycology and gettin' it onnnn!"
Home of poi as a community and those who post on it. Hold certain personal values very highly.
One of those is honesty.
Do not lie, do not bullsh!t. Here, we have little time for that.
Now I offer you some advice: Come clean, post an apology, post the true about yourself, and you will find HOP a very forgiving and friendly place, otherwise .....
Good night.
Edited by Glåss (09/11/05 07:10 AM)
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bender
This is MADNESS!!
Member #864
Reged: 14/11/01
Loc: Melbourne, Oz
541699
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08/11/05 04:18 PM
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I humbly express that a twirling history book that focuses on robert heart would be like a music history book focusing on the spice girls. any skewed history would cause harm even if a few people read it.
There is a level of hostility and incredulity on this discussion - on the point that we all share a love of this magnificent art and care about it's origins, let us honour our common ground and let go of how well connected or studied in psychology or philosophy one is. there's no need to justify oneself if we are confident of what we believe.
I thank you for the effort that you have clearly contributed in searching for the firey past and urge you to recognise the negative psychology that all of us are involved with here.
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nothings lasts.... but nothing is lost
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arashi
raised by sighthounds
Member #1678
Reged: 21/03/02
Loc: austin,tx
541793
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08/11/05 11:21 PM
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OK folks, let's settle just a bit, let the man say his peace.
"It's the difficulty in how to present this information to you that I am presently faced with."
What, is Robert Heart ADD /HD or something? Turret's Syndrome? We are all human here. But it seems like you have a signpost here, some reactions to previous interactions people have had with him to deal with in this society you are trying to "document." If you want to "reveal" something that pertains to him so i'd say just spit it out, or else we run up against more projections from all sides.
i've only met him briefly and he was pretty sociable so i stand outside of this rather interesting discourse... but i do think that the premise of your book seems... infantile if all you want is to find the "robert heart" or whoever this person ends up being.
it's like you'd rather interview buffalo bill than sitting bull about frontier spirituality.
actually i know for a fact that R.H. is not the person you are looking for, there are others who've been fusing those arts for longer, there are quite a few in fact, one has posted here and others have been mentioned!! but at this point i too am starting to wonder about your motives, or rather... your intentions, which seem to really support a cult of personality mindset.
Have to say, glass, i was wondering myself about the bad grammar and mispsellings of "diploma subjects." but then, i'm educated years beyond my lack of desire to capitalise... and i could definitely pick apart every post for grammar oopsies and such... anyways, i'm starting to wonder... why is it this is all starting to seem like a R.H. publicity stunt or something? or is paranoia finally manifesting itslef in the cyber poi world? or can we looks at tribal reactions to percieved personality types as projections of our selves, and our subsequent reactions to ourselves? every level of society has these kinds of personality conflicts. if you have a psych degree surely you can objectively shed more light on this matter 
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