Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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Re: "I just learned a new move" thread  find similar
05/04/06 12:24 AM
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Demand away.... It might even happen. 
In the meantime,
@ sandy- I'm also guilty of lopsided spinning, I tend to favour clockwise with a few exceptions, and am trying to correct this. However, yes, the staff is spinning the "wrong" way for a matrix.
@ strugz- with a bit of practice the footwork becomes unecessary, I went through this stage with the move, and it can be done just by twisting at the waist. However the footwork is fun, feels great when dancing, and helps with control when transistioning to another move.
As well as the figure of eight motion if you twist fast enough you can do a fishtail on the back of your neck.
@ MCP- not sure I'd consider these as anti-spin propellers. You've got the idea though, the arm travels horizontally underneath the staff clockwise as the staff spins anti-clockwise. Or visa-versa.
By the way, loving all the angel roll and layout variations.
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*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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05/04/06 03:45 AM
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Written by: mcp
Anyway a true anti-SPIN matrix would be the weirdest and hardest thing I can currently conceive of.
Really? How about walking on your hands while doing contact with your legs, that's where I'd like to be in couple of years....
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*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
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mcp
The Flying Water Muppet
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05/04/06 04:16 AM
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well I did mean with a staff. I didn't mean a circus trick. 
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"the now legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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05/04/06 04:52 AM
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*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
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-sandy-
Wants your body
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05/04/06 07:09 AM
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meg your right going in from vertical steve entry makes it wrong for f/s angel roll but i tried it going in fron reverse fishtails and it works much better (and slightly easier than the vertical steve).
Also came up with one armed angel rolls where you turn 180 in the middle and go back down the arm. This can also be done for vertical steve.
chrono you really do have to make a video i understand the idea of the anti-spin matrix but i want to see it.
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"Don't do it naked!"
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mcp
The Flying Water Muppet
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05/04/06 07:32 AM
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Written by: -sandy-
Also came up with one armed angel rolls where you turn 180 in the middle and go back down the arm. This can also be done for vertical steve.
yeah, been doing them a lot recently, but with 360's in. not sure if they'll make something nice, but they're fun.
was trying some of the stuff tonight: Angel rolls can't do neck wraps. They can only go through halo's or throat wraps. Steves can't go into halos, they can only do chest halos or neck wraps. You can't put a throat wrap in a vert steve.
So I reckon throat wraps and halos are interchangable in moves, as are chest halos and neck wraps. But you can't transition from one pair to the the other without doing something CRAZY, like well, turning.
That's all from megs elaborate school of stating the obvious for tonight!
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"the now legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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05/04/06 09:40 AM
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Written by: mcp
Angel rolls can't do neck wraps. They can only go through halo's or throat wraps. Steves can't go into halos, they can only do chest halos or neck wraps. You can't put a throat wrap in a vert steve.
Erm... (raises hand). Put a half rotation in when it reaches the first shoulder, the staff crosses to the front/back. This lets you go to a neck wrap from an angel roll, and to a throat wrap from a vertical steve. Then another half rotation at the second shoulder will take you back to your original V.steve or angel roll. Or you could leave this out to switch from V.steve to angel roll, for example.
@ sandy- Patience  . The move is stupidly hard. At the moment I can do it fully, on average, twice a day. If I owned a video camera this wouldn't be a problem, I could spend a day shooting to get five seconds of footage.
As things are however, you're going to have to wait for me to practice.
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mcp
The Flying Water Muppet
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05/04/06 08:19 PM
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Yeah I know, but What I said still stands? Why would I want to do something CRAZY like add in extra beats? That said I don't think it needs the extra beat, I think it needs to cross the shoulder. Which starts gettng you into weird angel roll to stalled up snes territory.
that said, it's fun trying to do stuff with only one gripping hand. (My left has a chunk of skin ripped off the palm.)
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"the now legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
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-sandy-
Wants your body
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05/04/06 10:26 PM
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i know what you mean meg my right elbow is rather pathetic and weak since i gave it a good smack in a bad place yesterday.
On a side note id like to suggest we give angel rolls their own family. I know they are technically extended halo's but they are also antispun steve's and there are so many varients (i can think of 7 straight off and there must be more) i think they deserve their own classification.
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"Don't do it naked!"
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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05/04/06 10:35 PM
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Ooh, nasty!  for you both!
@ MCP- Hmm.... The extra half beat is letting it cross the shoulder, I guess it could cross at any point on the arm. I suppose you're right however, as this makes it feel like a different move.
Thought it was worth mentioning though.
Could we stop stealing baton twirling terminology and invent new terms that are more openended?
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*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
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mcp
The Flying Water Muppet
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05/04/06 11:39 PM
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We already have. Open ended baton twirling terminology is fine if you never use any form of communication apart from verbal. Which is how they communicate all their moves. If they actually had to communicate mostly through text, I think they would soon develop a more rigorous terminology.
Typical hop real life interaction:
"hey show me that thing you were talking about online!"
"What you mean this?"
"No, but that's cool, teach me it!"
Which is why terminology is important in the context of hop, but not in real life. Saying "I think you can do a cool variation of that new variation of an angel roll we made up yesterday, but with an extra bit over the arm." isn't exactly immediately transparent as to what your doing. But with the above posts I can make out what they're talking about, without videos, reality, or elaborate diagrams. I like terminology.
Which is also why I don't really have an opinion on making angel rolls into a 'new' 'family'. It won't increase my staffing ability. It'll only slightly change the structure of my website, if I bother to.
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"the now legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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07/04/06 02:40 AM
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Written by: MCP
I don't have an opinion on making angel rolls into a 'new' 'family'.It won't increase my staffing ability.
Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't....
Written by: Chronofracture
Could we stop stealing baton twirling terminology and invent new terms that are more openended?
When I wrote this I was feeling irritated with both the clumsiness with which I've been expressing myself, and what amounts to aurguing about semantics. I've since realised that this may not be totally a bad thing, just part of a process which is, on the whole, positive. At any rate MCP's post has made me go and sit down with a cup of tea and think.
MCP is right, real life situations require little or no verbal communication. Monkey see, monkey do. This applies to videos as well. For the pure transmission of known skills I think these are great routes to take.
Sadly we do not all live door to each other, nor do we all possess the required resources, material and technical, to make videos. We're left with language for communication. So one which promotes clarity, and has an internal consistency, is desirable for this purpose. This is something that I hope will develop with time.
However, no words are really adequate to describe a physical process, the map is not the territorty.
But, this isn't the only thing that they can do.
Talking and writing about staff forces me to think in a different way about what I do, and produces different ideas than watching others or practicing.
Just having to explain something can, in itself, inspire new thought.
Also, terminology provides a sort of shorthand for combining moves into new untried sequences, as well as developing entirely new moves. Try sticking vertical infront of a normally horizontal move, or antispin infront of any move. Then go and see if you can make it real.
The restriction of named moves provides inspiration, how far can I stretch a move till it no longer fits the catergory it's been given. Once this has been done, make new catergories, and break those.
And a great way to motivate some people is to tell them a move is impossible.
I believe that the language we use, and how we use it, affects not only our ability to communicate but also the way that we think.
So if we change the way we describe a move, we might end up performing it differently as well.
After writing all this  , what I'm thinking is full vertical steve, which if I ever managed it, would make me a better staffer.
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strugz
is on his way back..
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07/04/06 03:26 AM
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Ever since i started posting on there boards - its amazing to see the variance in lauguage used to descibe moves.
TBH i think the poi forums are far more complicated!!
This forum however has come on loads and thanks to peeps like MCP there is now a broad understanding and a good sound base lauguage for contact staff.
Your right tho chrono - i too have learnt loads of things from the moves given here - not because of how they are described but, where i have learnt what a steve is, a matrix, a fishtail, a halo.....
these words them selves havnt taught me lots - but they have enabled me to put a certain stick movements into a group.......
thus giving me the opertunity to think how these moves all link together - its those places that link moves that really excite me and i enjoy finding........
however its those bits of moves that are the hardest to give a good all round name...... let alone describing them!
We should all get together far more often is what i think 
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mcp
The Flying Water Muppet
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07/04/06 03:55 AM
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+1 to what chronos said.
Names are important, not just for the above reasons, but because they affect how you think. Why do so many people want to learn the matrix? Why is the retarded man in the lawnmower man called Wade and not: Brick McIronJaw?
Messing around with adjectives is what made me want to make the notation I made in a thread a while back. (Still gotta make the EBNF for that thou...)
The map is not the territory. ~ Alfred Korzybski (has to find this quote...)
and on the way I found:
Alice came to a fork in the road. "Which road do I take?" she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat.
"I don't know," Alice answered.
"Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."
~Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
and perhaps more relevantly:
The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him? ~Chuang Tzu
and:
The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. ~Edward R. Murrow
and my favoured approache to staff:
Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end; then stop. ~Lewis Carrol, Alice in Wonderland
this post is a bit of a ramble. But I found loads of cool quotes on the way! Ahhhh.
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"the now legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
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-sandy-
Wants your body
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07/04/06 05:06 AM
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naming moves is important for us to comunicate here and having a standard list of names makes it much quicker and easier for people to express what they have been doing out in the back garden.
The problem is that this takes time for everyone to agree on what moves are called what. When i first started spinning i really wanted to come up with a move to be called a sandy. But as i've learnt more and progresed ive realised the pointlessness (and egotism) of this. People need names they can recognise as sensible for the move and can see how one move leads to the next. This is why i was suggesting giving angel rolls their own family, it could be hard fo a newbie to recognise a horizontal angel roll as a move that evolved from a halo and therefore it might take them longer to learn it.
While i think its a good idea to give new moves names it is also a pain in the arse thinking of a good name that makes sense to everyone and will help people learn. i guess that is why we start these threads.
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"Don't do it naked!"
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-sandy-
Wants your body
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09/04/06 03:54 AM
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ill stop wandering off topic now and actually talk about what new moves im doing.
Just been playing with arm fishtails (i guess thats what you'd call them), Starting in an angel roll, spin the staff a little faster than normal roll the staff down your arm and when it gets to your elbow (hand facing up) move your arm across to the front to fishtail. This has to be done quite fast since it is closer to your body and you have to get across the distance for the staff to be able to turn.
Where did everybody go?
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"Don't do it naked!"
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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10/04/06 04:38 AM
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Sorry, life sort of got in the way....
I've been playing with angel rolls as well. Liking the Inside Of the Elbow (I.O.E) as a control point, lots of nerve endings there. What you mentioned also works for a v.steve, at the I.O.E a half fishtail can send it into a halo. Playing with this reminded me that you can spin the staff gripped in the I.O.E, something I did years ago and just forgot about.
So, how many beats can we fit into an angel roll, if a "normal" one has one and a half?
And on the subject of giving angel rolls their own family, absolutely. Except I think of them as "rolls between outstretched wrists" which can include V.steves, angel rolls, combinations of the two and a whole buch of other stuff. But they're certainly distinct from halo's.
What have I been practicing? Matrix variations. Full vertical steves (turning and non-turning), which aren't as hard as I thought but the non-turning especially feels poo. And lots of angel roll type things and linking consecutive "vanilla" angel rolls with a fishtail and a 180 degree twist of the torso, this feels lovely .
Also, not a new move but if you cross your legs, you can spin 360 on the spot quite gracefully uncrossing then recrossing your legs. Or be sat crosslegged, stand up and sit down twisting, recrossing your legs the other way. Been working these into my staffing, jesus/halo stuff and anti-turn matrix's work well.
Off to practice....
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*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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10/04/06 07:35 AM
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.... Which went really well  .
Did a full vertical steve (turning), which actually felt nice. And loads of lovely links between v.steve and angel roll variations using fishtails, conveyor belts and lucero's.
And remembered to dance!
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*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
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mrsoap
newbie
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10/04/06 11:39 PM
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I don't know if there is a name for this move or if anyone has done it before, but I've been practicing it a lot lately and I can pull it off very well. There is a lot of finger twirling involved and you probably need to have double-jointed shoulders to pull it off :/
If no one can give a name for this, then I will name it.
This is what it's like while I'm twirling:
1) While finger twirling with right hand anti-clockwise, sit on the ground on your butt.
2) Keep finger twirling, but put pressure on the staff with the intent of making it spin horizontal to the ground while you lie down backwards. At this point you should be on your back, finger twirling the staff horizontal to the ground with your right hand (above you, that is).
3) This is where the flexiness is helpful. Thrust your right hand (with the staff in it) to the right as far as you can. Kind of like the Heil Hitler salute, except sideways. As you are doing this, put your left hand behind your back and roll your body over to your left hand side.
4) As you as still finger twirling with your right hand (and you are rolling over to the left), pull your right arm behind your back (while twirling if you can pull it off :/ ) as if a police officer was pulling your arms behind your back so he could put handcuffs on them.
5) By now, you should be completely on your stomach (having completed a 180 degree roll). The staff should still be spinning horizontally above you if you have done it right. Since your left hand is behind your back now too, you can transfer the staff to that hand and keep the finger twirling going.
6) Start to turn over again with the intention of completing a 360 degree roll. The rest of the move is essentially the same as the beginning, except in reverse (with the opposite hand).
There!!!
If I were to describe this move in one sentence, I would say that is something along the lines of "Finger twirling an angel while rolling across the ground on your back and stomach." I've clobbered myself in the head and burnt my back a bit trying to pull this move off, but I think it was worth it. As you become better at it, you can roll across the ground multiple times, like someone rolling down a hill
It looks really cool because you are sandwiched between the ground and your staff which is spinning above you. If you can do it really fast, it looks like the staff is hovering in the air above you without you touching it at all.
I should record a video.
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Love,
- Eric
Edited by mrsoap (10/04/06 11:47 PM)
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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11/04/06 05:25 AM
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Hiya MrSoap, welcome to the HoP staff forum.
The move sounds cool. I don't know anyone who does this kind of groundwork, you've just inspired me to go and roll around on the park.
As for names.... Lawnmower, grass cutter, under the radar....
I'm crap at names.
More groundwork shenanigans please!
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*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
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-sandy-
Wants your body
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11/04/06 05:53 AM
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hello there mrsoap  . That sounds like but not quite the same as something i used to do (and should start doing again) which i called jedi rolls cos that was what they called them in the hop staff tutorials (they are now called Btb and sitting combination
http://www.homeofpoi.com/lessons/staff_lessons.php?lesson=26
which i think is a much less imaginitive name).
Obviously yours involve more rolling around on the ground (making them much cooler) but i think the principal is the same.
So what have i done today? well actually spent most of the time trying to juggle 4 balls but did play with my staff a bit. played more with angel rolls trying to put lots of beats in (4 and a half most i got). Also been playing with angel roll fishtail angel roll with reasonable success but no where near smooth and the idea of fishtailing down your arm for an angel roll is a bit of a way off just yet.
Again chrono, i must thank you for a fresh bunch of ideas with the vertical full steve (turning), very nice and definitly hard enough to keep me keen for a while on this one. Btw what do you mean by 'vanilla' angel rolls? across one way and then back the other?
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"Don't do it naked!"
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yoni
i know why
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11/04/06 05:58 AM
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Hey Mrsoap
sounds like an awesome move you got there.
Today i've been playing with some isolations and transitions with some tiny doubles and cleaning up my anti-spin weave. There's been some awesome new idea's in here recently, so thanks for all the awesome new idea's and concepts.
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UCOF "evolution: Poi -> stick -> hoops -> devil stick -> juggling club -> juggling ball -> crayons."
Supergroovalsticprosifunkstication
In other words, it's the thumps bump
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mcp
The Flying Water Muppet
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11/04/06 07:03 AM
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I've been getting stuff clean. Trying to work it into my 'flow'...
that and trying to do mindtricks with just one staff... g'damn contact jugglers...
I have also been working on getting my knee better, but it is still very not.... 
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"the now legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
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Larry
Electro Ponce!
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11/04/06 07:26 AM
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suppose i'd get laughed at for saying i learnt to do a couple of neckrolls?
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What're you looking at?
I assume you're being rhetorical?
What're you callin' me!?
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Chronofracture333
Hobo Gaylord
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11/04/06 08:47 AM
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Nope, you get a big  !
@-sandy- sorry, "vanilla" was just there to denote a plain/normal angel roll as opposed to the variations we've been discussing. Totally unecessary.
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*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*
"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"
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