Negative space and framing

negative space is a juggling concept which coleman will kindly explain for me.

and this morning i realised i've been plaing with it loads and loads and loads with poi over the last year or so.

dom's been dipping his toes in the water too......


proper discussion when cole does his part of this job.

smiles
R

Are you trying to take arashi's place now?

Looks like it doesnt it?

Telling others to post for him...



Rob...skinup

sorry.

my definition of it is crap.
coles definition of it is good.

i would prefer you got a good definition.

anything wrong with that?

already skun up. your turn.

Dang.

Can we hear your interpretation of it first please as so to confuse us?

Then Cole can drop by and clear up any misunderstanding.



*skinsup*

*lovestherob*

negative space

don't know where the concept came from - it is possibly a general term, it very possibly comes from the art world and it seems to be used regularly to describe elements in sculptures.

wherever its from, my understanding of it, as applied to sculpture or one's body, is this:

negative space is a space that is bounded by positive space - positive space being the space taken up by an object.

check out the pictures on the left of this page, about half way down.

so to create negative spaces we enclose areas with parts of our bodies or with objects such as hoops.

simplest example i can think of: putting your hands on your hips - this creates two negative spaces on either side of your waist. these are the spaces enclosed by your arms, bound by your arms and your body.

i heard contact jugglers that were dancing using this term first and then found out about a certain stefan sing.

the idea mr blue is getting at is the creation and use of these negative spaces during poi play - creating negative spaces with your body and manipulating the poi through them, or even creating negative spaces with poi and manipulating another poi or your body through that.

i have tried using negative space while juggling but alas it is beyond me, for now.

someone please skin up.

*doof*doof*

thanks cole.

right.

where to start.

f*ck

i think there are about a million moves/ideas already in use.


AAAAAARGH.

uberargh.

will come back when brain less overloaded.

this is the first thing thats made me want to play with poi loadsandloads for over 6 weeks....

Going into a staightjacket (reels with arms fully folded) is an awesome neg space move.

Although neither space is fully bounded when you go through it, so does it 'count'?

Written by: coleman

---

i heard contact jugglers that were dancing using this term first

---

People like Piet Mondrian were using the term 'negative space' in that same sense long before silly ball people

Negative space tree

Although, in my humble opinion, these moves that are called 'negative space moves' would be better served with a less pretentious name
(coughcoughbloodycontactjugglerscough)

They are about making a hole then putting something through it

i've heard far too much absolute bull$hit about negative space from wanky artists

now i have to hear it from wanky jugglers too?

ye gods...

yeah, negative space is a hugely effective tool for artists. it is much easier to draw the outline of something surounding an object (let's say a person) than it is to draw that person's outline directly because of all the preconceptions in your head about what the object/person should look like as opposed to what they do look like. this can be due to poor mapping from 3-d to 2-d or even just mental ridgidity of an idealized form.

To me, what I've hear descibed here for juggling/poi is more akin to framing, which is very similar to negative space in some aspects. But this is purely from the artistic education standpoint (yes, I am a physicist AND an artist by education), and so when terms are taken from one realm to another, their meanings are often morphed.

You can do this sort of stuff as well when you grab the poi head either in the other hand or in the same hand after a wrap. And then exit via more wraps or airwraps.

I like this 'negative space' shenanigan. When I was young un, they called it 'figure and ground'. Negative space seems a lot more futuristic though.

I Like M.C. Escher.

i like the term negative space.

i was jealous when i thought only contact jugglers and people that could draw could use it.

now i can too.

notcoleman5 and lots of other buzzsaw weave stuff utilise negative spaces.

in fact, i think the reason buzzsaws in general look so cool is beacause they pass through a negative space.


yours sincerely,

wanky juggler.

1- the buzzsaw use of negative space is just in the general sense that they are not the body.. there's no connection in a buzzsaw to make negative space.. its more of a C shape the and O.. in that sense spinning at all takes place in negative space (think of the black on the outside of the white stool, not just the black inside the white stool... ) I mean if you want to use non-enclosed sections then any inside (like say a water mill) will make use of negative space in that more general sense.. your arms during a btl weave (and thepoi as they pass btl) Even a good bit of antispin makes use of this semiclosed negative space..

2- inverted weaves are good examples because the over lap of the hands to do the inversion creates a hole that you can put stuff through.. but I mean this could be things as simple as putting your hands on your hips and spinning through the hole.. or the way the poi spin in a tangled buzzsaw.. infact a LOT of tangle stuff makes use of this concept.. sometimes on multiple levels..

3- I think this is one area where glowstringers already have an advantage in that a lot of the string stricks and what not make use of a lot of these negative spaces.. grabbing the stick so as to manipulate the poi through the hole made and what not..

yeah I'm with blue..
F*ck.. theres a lot here..

1. rev, the negative space on the outside of the stool is enclosed by the frame of the photograph.
the watermill (not between the legs version) is a good example of negative space in its loosest sense - the space may not be entirely bound but the space created between your arms and your legs easily qualifies.
btl watermill uses an entirely bound negative space - the btl space is completely bound by your legs and the ground.
fully bounded negative space is rare in poi i think but this does mean the scope is not there or that none of these things can be referred to as negative space.
the buzzsaw negative space may not be entirely bound but the horizontal area enclosed by the arms and the chest are a perfect example of a move where objects pass through a negative space.

2. buzzsaw weaves have more complicated negative spaces that are not entirely bound either - they use the plane of the other poi to help create them.

3. just the few examples of mind games and gumby's that i've seen have a multitude of negative space examples.

Nice one for bringing this up. It's a fantastic concept.

There seem to be two different understandings of negative space in this thread; there's the general artistic version, and possibly there's a juggling specific version, which consists of

Written by: simian

---

making a hole then putting something through it

---

In the general sense, negative space doesn't have to be completely surrounded by the object to be negative space - if you look at the picture of the stool with the negative space highlighted, most of it is outside the stool. This is quite clear because there's a defined frame around the image; it's a bit more difficult with a spinner - is the frame the stage, or the reach of the toys, or something different and harder to define? But there's negative space around you all the time. Worrying about whether or not it's completely enclosed is closer to topology.

So I think there's a two directions that come from this; one is finding families of moves which involve the making and penetrating of holes , and the other is a more general understanding of the effect of spinning. To get pretentious, you could say that spinning is really an exploration of negative space - you're finding configurations which allow the toys to move through the negative spaces left by the body (because if you try to move them through positive space it hurts.)

And I think that looking at spinning as negative space exploration is a nice way to get into multi person stuff and environment interaction.

Right, off to think and play

Edited to say that coleman types faster than me

wwwaaaaoh sh*t.

do we start on semi-enclosed spaces as well? f*ck.

i was thinking of puting p some lists, but here are some ideas of was o create negaitve spaces(mmmm lovely wank eh simon?).

isolated stalls: stalling so the poi head is stopped, touching your body.

notcoleman variations(oh alright, inversions, well, some of them)

drapes: should be obvious, explanation if not

end catches(remember you have feet )

wraps
airwraps(most variations, naming shenanigans aside)

mindgames; couldn't agree more rev, glwstringers ae way ahead here, tho that bristol lass elasta has these coming out of her ears. talented lady, must film.

i'm sure theres loads more, but been jugglng and thats put my mind oon another plane.

love
R

coleman...

I was citing the figure in the diagram where it said the stool could be completely drawn form the negative space.. whihc I took to mean the outside as well since the inside alone can't draw the 'stool'


and on the inverted weaves... the create negative space.. because like a weave, your wrists are together.. so you have a bound circle using just your arms.. and since the wrists stay in contact, there is never a break by whihc to not have negative space.. so it really doesnt need the poi at all for negative space...

???

Oh the geeks have risen to a whole new level.

We've taken off the coke bottle glasses and pocket protectors and put on black berets, ghotis and fake French accents and clap by snapping our fingers.



Mais oui... It is not where ze poi is... but where ze poi is not. Not where it has gone but where it is go-wing. It is emportant to think outside ze poi, so we may become what is inzide ze poi. Much like ze music is always playing and we only use ze instruments to harness it, ze poi is always spinning... and we only use the wicks to contain which of ze infinite poi possibilities we will realize. Schrotengers cat is alive and we are all dead."

See... THIS is why I love you guys.

Looking forward to more...