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#308685 - 11/03/04 01:49 AM You can go to the ball..... *****
Glåss Offline
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Registered: 08/11/01
Loc: Bristol
edit- now with descriptions - Of one characteristic member of each family.some families have 60-100+ members.
and over simplified definitions of ways of spinning and of fundamentals, you should get the idea

In reverse order:
Moves:
as if I'm going to write out a list

up one level to:
Families:
CROSS FOLLOW - weaves and variations
BUTTERFLIES - see hop lesson for a simple butterfly ( a butterfly is still a fly.)
WAIST WRAPS - oldskool clubswinging term, for me the carry defines the wastwrap. lush vaiations btb and butterfly
STARTS - play
STOPS [inc. stop wraps]
REELS - Reel (simpelist butterfly reel) = low wave or mexican wave + a lot of variations
oldskool clubswinging term. Look it up in schatz, watch the gandini clubswinging dvd. ailing that you can be pretty sure that if its wall plane and you have a poi on each side of your body than its a reel variation.
PARTIAL ARCS - incomplete circles in lots of different ways eg pendulums
JEDI MOVES - the one that isn't logical: defined as stuff that I and almost nobody really understand fully and is concepts that are really really hard. members don't tend to stay in here for more than a year or 2, because, as more people learn them they become far easier to learn (somone type global conciousness in here,) because as we gain understanding we learn how to teach it, and because we get to see it IRL and in videos rather than just in our heads. so it used to be that 5bt btb weave was jedi, now its just very difficult. Part of the reason that it exisst is that its often not completlt clear where now concepts are going to fit in when they are finally fleshed out, so it kindof existed as a holding group when I made the list for stuff that is really hard and we don't fully understand and haven't got solid. by the time it becomes mainstream nobody really thinks its Jedi anymore.
ISOLATIONS and taking the weight off - see below, buzzsaw isolation was one of the first also known as illusion
THROWS - toss juggling poi
THROUGH WRAPS
TANGLES - inc hyperloops and airwraps
BIG CIRCLE LITTLE CIRLCE - see below
SEPARATE [independent] - disconnect your arms and have 2 brains
BUZZSAWS / INSIDE - spin a wheel with short poi follow time
SPIDER - follow time, spin in follow time anywhere, you can think of it as one move (arashi classification) or as a family (ww cross follow etc traditional club swinging classification) and as a way of spinning. It becomes a game to extend your spider, add btb, add wall plane, add long arm etc etc. )then go do a split time spider then butterfly, then parallel etc)
BODY TURNS
ILLIGAL MOVES [ edit: ]
FOUNTAINS and FLOWERS - edit oops forgot this sub family of cross follow. flowers are very simmilar to fountains if you reverse the major circle
There are more or less depending on your breakdown

up one level to
Ways of Spinning:
FOLLOW TIME: same direction 180° apart. like you do in cross follow or 3 bt weave.poi point in opposite directions
PARALLEL TIME: same direction and parallel, , its the simplest time to understand
BUTTERFLY TIME: opposite direction crossing at top and bottom
SPLIT TIME: opposite direction crossing at sides. same rhythm as follow time but poi travelling on opposite direction so they cross at 3 oclock and 9 oclock
QUARTER TIME (ugh) poi at 90 degrees
2:1 // 3:1 // 3:2 // X:Y // X:1 - one poi completing one revolution everytime the other one does two? and so on and so on.
CLOCK TIME- jedi at the moment, so I won't describe. variation on x:y and specically playing with 5:4 big circle little circle wall plane
BIG CIRCLE / LITTLE CIRCLE - combine long arm with normal circles or isolations - play with circle size eg
flowers
VERTICAL
HORIZONTAL
INCLINED
DIFFERENT PLANES - ATOMS (poi spinning on different planes) - OTHERS non atom
eg - vertical and horizontal - one poi on each
TRINITY

up one more level to
The Fundamentals:
BASIC CIRCLES - Shoulder centre (long arm rotation - watch pk or jo derry do it cleanly very hard to do well)
- Elbow centre
- hand centre (normal spinning)
- mid string centre (isolation see below much difficult)
body turns - (move yo' ass)
HANGS AND STILLS (and gilligans) - po hanging straight down post modernist poi swinging
PULL THRU's - when the poi climbs up to 10 oclock tug so it flys acrros to 2 oclock and chops off the top of the circle etc
CRITICAL MOMENTUM: when near the top of the revolution, the speed of the po at the top of the arc falls below a certain speed (aside: it think its about 2m/s or 6 ft/sec for the old timers and yanks if your hand is stationary but i wouldn't trust the math i do late at night and your hand isn't stationary )...
where was I, ok, below a certain speed at the top the tension falls to zero. and the po falls off the circle for about a quarter to a third of a circle, but still completes the loop around the hand.
Ideal for drunken master style. very difficult to have any plane control or timing, but that’s just more drunk, very nice feeling at the po fall over your hands plop plop plop. much easier if you don't try. mostly poi ntless
THROWS & RELEASES - letting go
CONTACT MOVES - po head or string in contact with some part of the body and still moving
ISOLATIONS - difficult analogous in many ways to club swinging snakes. the po rotates about a point in the middle of the string. powered isolations - rotate about a point between centre and head. lame/lazy or bad isolations rotate about a point between handle and midpoint of string.
WRAPS - po wraps around part of your body and unwraps again recoil or stop wraps- bounce off and come out in reverse. thru wraps unwrap because you moved the limb they are wrapping round to the other side of your body
SPIRAL - play with spirals
CONSTRUCT/helix - this is super dark, and I'm not going to explain it here, its the most complex concept in poi that I have ever understood. I can now explain it. but expect your brain to cook. id saw its utterly jedi to even form a mental picture the concept in space.

EDIT:
also if you want to get serious about terminology - get a copy of schatz (I've lost my copy, have i leant it to you??)
gillings can be very useful, but not all of it is correct (fountain is counted wrong, and very difficult to under stand in places, but http://www.semlyen.net/cosmosjugglers/lib/contents.htm.
__________________________________________
It isn't complete. They're my definitions, in my list of moves. (And if you're using expressions like families / hyperloops / isolations / and about 1/4 of the terms up there you're using words defined for poi in my list)

before you get really confused, most moves live in more than one family, and most moves have cousins in every other family. (if you want to develope your spinning, take any move and transcribe it to another family, or to another way of spinning.... eg take a weave, put it in split time get a split time butterfly weave).
one last thing: my recommendation is that you don't put your effort into try to work out what other people have done, don't waste your effort trying to disentangle badly described poi words. use them mearly as inspiration, its far more rewarding to explore the teritory for yourself, and to define perfection in poi for yourself, and to always aim and strive for that point.
\end technical nerdy poi spinning mode

I wish you all clean planes and down right dirty dancing
Drew

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#308686 - 11/03/04 01:58 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Glåss]
UnscrupulousChavOffersFoot Offline
Silly Chavs

Registered: 17/04/02
Loc: Whales
cheers dude..

most usefull.

were the ratios to do with one poi completing one revolution everytime the other one does two? and so on and so on.

whats an example of a jedi move?

Reels?


clock time? (both poi, same time, same direction, wall plane?)

pull throughs?

spirals?

helixes?


_________________________
Do not kick wallman.
He will eat your leg.
No joke.

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#308687 - 11/03/04 02:06 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Glåss]
bluecat Offline
geek, level 1

Registered: 15/12/02
Loc: everywhere

extremely nice one


i have a similar(but different) set of cross references up on my wall at the moment(in lots of need of an update, the last one was three months ago...)


but:


please don't completely ignore the technically difficult in pursuit of aesthetics. for who know what beauty may come from geekdom?

smiles and much appreciating hugs.

printout coming my way for to compare with my listings(which incidentally if anyone is interested in goes into more detail on the moves front, but less on the concepts...; i could post in its own thread....?)

i can't help but wonder how many people keep a self-encyclopedia in some shape or form...?

R
_________________________
Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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#308688 - 11/03/04 02:10 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Glåss]
simian Offline
monkey

Registered: 11/10/02
Loc: London


*starts transposing to stick*
_________________________
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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#308689 - 11/03/04 02:15 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Glåss]
coleman Offline
big and good

Registered: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
absolutely wicked.
now cue the endless questions for clarification on these names

[edit: seems it was the first thing to have happened!]




and as for 'HOP=JABOSK?', possibly...
or maybe some of us are just feeling our age recently...?


Edited by coleman (11/03/04 02:53 AM)
_________________________
"i see you at 'dis cafe. i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself. they do porridge." - tim westwood

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#308690 - 11/03/04 02:25 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: UnscrupulousChavOffersFoot]
Tao Star Offline
Compulsive Knitter

Registered: 30/05/03
Loc: Bristol
Quote:

whats an example of a jedi move?





yeah, i'd like to know that too. I thought it was a general term - is there a specific definition?
_________________________
I had a dream that my friend had a strong-bad pop up book, it was the book of my dreams.

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#308691 - 11/03/04 03:27 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Tao Star]
NYC Offline
NYC

Registered: 26/08/01
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
If the cool kids are being cool and suggesting that hyperloops are a subsection of isolations, which I understand though find needlessly cute, then wouldn't thru-wraps be a subsection of isolations as well?

Isn't a thru-wrap just a one-poied hyperloop?

So shouldn't it read "Isolations (Including hyperloops and Thru-wraps)"

[Patiently awaits totally confusing explanation as to why I'm wrong]
_________________________
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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#308692 - 11/03/04 03:31 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Tao Star]
simian Offline
monkey

Registered: 11/10/02
Loc: London
Quote:

whats an example of a jedi move?



These are not the moves you're looking for...
_________________________
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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#308693 - 11/03/04 03:31 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: NYC]
NYC Offline
NYC

Registered: 26/08/01
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
Oh wait... you did... My bad.

So a hyperloop is a subsection of an isolation and also a subsection of a thru wrap whereas an airwrap is only a subsection of a thru wrap.

I get it. I knew I was wrong. I always am. Even right now.
_________________________
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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#308694 - 11/03/04 03:34 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: NYC]
simian Offline
monkey

Registered: 11/10/02
Loc: London
ah, its all one big happy family really

and who the uncle is and who the daughter is just depends on your point of view...

_________________________
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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#308695 - 11/03/04 03:38 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: simian]
NYC Offline
NYC

Registered: 26/08/01
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
Hey Glass, I'll try not to ask too many questions but can you explain what you mean by "split time" as a family vs. as a way of spinning. I understand it much better as a way of spinning. What is of the split time family that is not a subsection of any of the other families?

PM or Here would be lovely and I'd be your best friend for an hour.

_________________________
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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#308696 - 11/03/04 04:07 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: NYC]
Glåss Offline
<!--PHP Error-->

Registered: 08/11/01
Loc: Bristol
by jove I think you've got it NYC.
Cole and rob I edited for ya

reels: old clubswining definition. for the first wall plane move i ever teach beginners. see jillings. its the family that included my favorite po move.

Jedi moves: the one that isn't logical: defined as stuff that I and almost nobody really understand fully and is concepts that are really really hard. members don't tend to stay in here for more than a year or 2, because, as more people learn them they become far easier to learn (somone type global conciousness in here,) because as we gain understanding we learn how to teach it, and because we get to see it IRL and in videos rather than just in our heads. so it used to be that 5bt btb weave was jedi, now its just very difficult. Part of the reason that it exisst is that its often not completlt clear where now concepts are going to fit in when they are finally fleshed out, so it kindof existed as a holding group when I made the list for stuff that is really hard and we don't fully understand and haven't got solid. by the time it becomes mainstream nobody really thinks its Jedi anymore.



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#308697 - 11/03/04 04:14 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Glåss]
bluecat Offline
geek, level 1

Registered: 15/12/02
Loc: everywhere
thanks

and i guess this thread is a fabulous answer to the pm i sent you aages ago too
esp. the edit for coleman....

and the concept of 'jedi' as a holding set is truly brilliant. hopefully this means noone will be aspiring to be jedi no more, and will just get on with being as good at what they choose to learn as they can be.

lovenhugs
R
_________________________
Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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#308698 - 11/03/04 05:42 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: bluecat]
MillenniuM Offline
Hyperloops suck

Registered: 10/07/03
Glass, you're bloody crazy... I randomly mention someone should list families of moves, and you list families and subsets?!

By the way, in 10 years, we're going to be doing some stuff so bloody impossible we'll need to use the taxonomy naming system... Kingdom Phylum etc. etc. all the way down to Genus, Species. Yummy

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#308699 - 11/03/04 07:00 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Glåss]
NYC Offline
NYC

Registered: 26/08/01
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
One addition?

Legality
Legal Moves
Illegal moves



And call me a newbie but can you direct me towards the definition of a spider?
_________________________
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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#308700 - 11/03/04 07:27 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: NYC]
MillenniuM Offline
Hyperloops suck

Registered: 10/07/03
spi·der  
n.

1. Any of numerous arachnids of the order Araneae, having a body divided into a cephalothorax bearing eight legs, two poison fangs, and two feelers and an unsegmented abdomen bearing several spinnerets that produce the silk used to make nests, cocoons, or webs for trapping insects.


In other words I have no idea... sounds like a flower variation to me.

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#308701 - 11/03/04 07:31 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: NYC]
Glåss Offline
<!--PHP Error-->

Registered: 08/11/01
Loc: Bristol
damn you to hell yanky.
I'm gonna make you pay for that... check your PM's.
ok I'll stop pretending that i didn't skip one when I transcribed it,
maybe that was my subconcious trying to help the world

spider= follow time, spin in follow time anywhere, you can think of it as one move (arashi classification) or as a family (ww cross follow etc traditional club swinging classification) and as a way of spinning.
It becomes a game to extend your spider, add btb, add wall plane, add long arm etc etc. follow this logic for a month or two and it'll take you somewhere interesting. :LOL:



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#308702 - 11/03/04 08:04 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Glåss]
oli Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 24/07/03
Loc: bristol/ southern eastern devo...


this is cool. i love reading stuff like this that i understand very little of.

i think i need to know afew things though.

as i looked at things before i read this, i thought you could have 'split time' or 'in time' (or quarter time if your feeling crazy).

and now i read up there ^ you can have follow time, and clock time. im not sure what these could be ?

iwould love it if someone wants to explain that to me.
_________________________
Me train running low on soul coal They push+pull tactics are driving me loco They shouldn't do that no no no

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#308703 - 11/03/04 08:49 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Glåss]
NYC Offline
NYC

Registered: 26/08/01
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
Quote:

damn you to hell yanky.
I'm gonna make you pay for that... check your PM's.
ok I'll stop pretending that i didn't skip one when I transcribed it,
maybe that was my subconcious trying to help the world

spider= follow time, spin in follow time anywhere, you can think of it as one move (arashi classification) or as a family (ww cross follow etc traditional club swinging classification) and as a way of spinning.
It becomes a game to extend your spider, add btb, add wall plane, add long arm etc etc. follow this logic for a month or two and it'll take you somewhere interesting. :LOL:




Hrmm... still have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Maybe I have no idea how it's not something else. What's a spider that's not a cross follow? And "follow time" is confusing me. If I take my arms and put one in front of me and one to my right side (so 90 degree horizontal angle), and then I spin around like a pretty ballerina, am I doing follow time and therefore a spider?

Confused but comfortable with not being jedi.

_________________________
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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#308704 - 11/03/04 09:58 AM Re: You can go to the ball..... [Re: Glåss]
tiamat_22580 Offline
I will kill all mods

Registered: 07/08/02
Loc: mods suck
this should be a stickie
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