spiralx
dirty techno junkie
Member #1989
Reged: 01/05/02
Loc: London, UK
211870
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Re: You can go to the ball.....  find similar
20/03/04 06:39 AM
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So what about butterfly waist wraps, butterfly weave fountains or alternate direction flowers? Heck, flowers don't do any "crossing" either really.
And what about same-direction reels?
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"Moo," said the happy cow.
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Rev
Bastard newbie messiah
Member #4257
Reged: 14/03/03
Loc: Apparently lost in my ego
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22/03/04 06:07 AM
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ok... so I've avoided this post like the plague.. but inevitably keep getting refer'd back here when I try to find this helix stuff.. I know you don't feel like explaining it here, perhaps in a pm.. perhaps for a cookie... or perhaps just a short little animated clip dubbed "this crazy nonsense that I don't want to explain" or perhaps a link dubbed, "Rev, you punk, stop letting your poi think for you and go here"
or you could just do it in a 3-5 page essay, but I hate essays.. I'm sure you hate essays.. I'm sure we all hate essays.. or maybe just I hate essays..
I'm going back to bed..
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[Nx?]
Scoiattolo de mare
Member #796
Reged: 05/11/01
Loc: Europe,Scotland,Both
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22/03/04 06:21 AM
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Dont beat yourself up Rev, I dont think it actually exists.
the idea (and this is in the vauge hope hes gonna come and tell me im wrong) is kinda v-shaped planes (well, more like / shaped plane) being pulled sideways through space, its sort of semi isolated and it makes the poi form a spiral as they transition from left to right. do this in follow time and you get a helix, the double spiral. the reason i dont think it exists is that you can only make one transition (outside to invert) with the poi keeping the /, on the next transition the / flips to \ (hence making a V).
The other eveidence i have for this not existing is the fack the hes been on it for nearly a year now and its still jedi.
T 
edit actually having played around some more it is possible to come out the other side keeping the / is just damm hard.
(  )
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This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
Edited by [Nx?] (22/03/04 07:02 AM)
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Glåss
Eeeeeep
Member #829
Reged: 08/11/01
Loc: Bristol
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22/03/04 09:54 AM
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I'd recomend that you ignore Nx's post on the grounds that it won't help you.
he's only seen fragments of it, more than most, but everyones seen some of it.
So far I've never managed to explain it in less than an hour, using drawings, models and po/clubswining.
but I can explain all that i understand of it, and I will ...in due course
In the mean time i also recommend that you don't even worry about it, and don't speculate on it. but do get very very very tight plane control, solid long arm spins and middle of the string isolations
The construct took me a year just to build the theory of it. that theory is what finally allowed me put down my poi, at least for the forseeable future. You know more parts of it than you think, but nothing to help get the jigsaw puzzle to make sense.
I wont teach the move until i can convey the philosopy
Follow the path of your own po
80808080
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[Nx?]
Scoiattolo de mare
Member #796
Reged: 05/11/01
Loc: Europe,Scotland,Both
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22/03/04 10:10 AM
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oh well, unhelpfull is better than wrong i suppose  
T
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This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
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Stone
old skool clubswinger
Member #331
Reged: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
212355
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22/03/04 03:07 PM
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spiralx, I think some confusion comes from my assumptions regarding traditional "old skool" moves, and I tend to classify moves as same direction or opposite direction. For example, waist wraps are an "old skool" move, so my first assumption is that they are a same direction move. Sure you can have butterfly waist wraps, but the name u used defines the move ie. butterfly waist wrap. This indicates an opposite direction move, does it not?
If u are you asking me, about my classification of your examples, then:
"So what about butterfly waist wraps?" Butterfly, opp direction move.
"Butterfly weave fountains?" Butterfly, opp direction move. Is there a description of the butterfly weave fountain at HOP?
Flowers, reels and same-direction reels. Reels are an "old skool"move that generally denotes alternating, opposite direction moves. They don't usually cross, so would not consider them to be a butterfly.
The term Flowers is not one I use, but from what I've seen recently, they are (or were originally) a same direction move, done in side-plane, and are comprised of big and little circles. I'm told people also call them Fowers when they do em in opposite direction. Perhaps that's one for the "boffins" to sort out. I'd probably call them reels if they were an opposite direction move. Actually, my own private name for these is Inter-Planetary-Gears 
Flowers don't do any "crossing" either really. What's your point about crossing?
(((Incidentally, I learnt and call all the same-direction waist wraps, fountains. And while I use that term in private, I call them waist wraps at HOP, to reduce confusion))).
Does that help ????? If not, then refer all further correspondence to Dr Glass
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The ingredients of health and long life are
Great temperance, open air,
Indian Clubs, little care.
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Pyrolific
World Fire Pilgrim
Member #60
Reged: 10/01/01
Loc: Adelaide, South Australia
212358
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22/03/04 04:07 PM
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*Remembers a day on Clapham Common with Glass, spent with much headscratching and clubs laid out in weird repeating V shapes on the grass*
Still dont get it - unless I do and I dont know it
I still think that the most jedi concept is that of Schrodingers Poi.
ie your perception of the poi alters the state of the Poi, etc.
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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
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Stone
old skool clubswinger
Member #331
Reged: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
212463
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23/03/04 12:54 AM
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Getting back to questions on the double movement and double-time. Now this is real "old skool"; wall-plane stuff, and best viewed in the sub-category of "Not Necessarily That Important".
So, for opposite direction moves like the butterfly, you are doing a double movement when both poi are swung together. For example, double behind the shoulder circles (left and right are doing shoulder circles at the same time), then down to double lower fronts (left and right hands doing lower front circles together). With double-time, I think you just do 2 circles, like two in a set together, two upper fronts with each hand.
The partner (for want of a better word) of a double movement is an alternating movement. The reel is an example of an alternating movement. With the reel you do a right shoulder circle (behind the shoulder) and a left long arm circle simultaneously, and right long arm circle and left shoulder circle simultaneously. Alternation can also include up and down movement, as with the travelling moves. There are lots of ways to change from an alternating movement to double movement. You can for example, do two shoulder circles with left, while the right does a long arm and shoulder circle.
I associate the parallel and follow movements with same direction (weave) type moves, and also the split-shift and follow-shift. For example, you are swinging parallel lower front and lower back circles. If from the lower front circles, the right does a lower back circle, the left a lower front, the right lower front, left lower back, you get the shift or split. From there u can move into waist circles like the "lower back waist circle, arm over the back" for fountains, and other anachronistic stuff . Was ne of that useful ??? 
Would the inclusion of a section on "transitions" be useful?
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The ingredients of health and long life are
Great temperance, open air,
Indian Clubs, little care.
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simian
monkey
Member #3268
Reged: 11/10/02
Loc: London
212474
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23/03/04 02:01 AM
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i reckun: transition is just a word that means "the bit inbetween".
Sometimes it's instantaneous (a point common to two moves where poi position, poi momentum, and arm position are common. ie: there is a point in backwards weave that is identical to a point in forwards weave. There is no particular 'transition' movement between them.
Sometimes its a couple of carries, or a carry and a circle, or whatever little fudging of timing that you require.
its all pretty arbitrary what you consider 'move' and what you consider 'transition'.
i could do a butterfly, jump around swinging patterns for half an hour, then do a reverse butterfly, and claim all the stuff inbetween butterflies was merely a transition.
Stone: alternating & double! thats the terms i was wanting for describing double staff! Was getting really confused mixing it up with follow and parallel time.
Godammit, follow and parallel are rubbish terms. What are terms for those timings irrespective of same\opposite direction?
split time and... same time? 
Helixes: sound like trinity non-contact airwraps to me
and Glass is sounding very Johnathan Livingstone Seagull, he'll be making his patterns change state instantaneously soon, without all this timewasting circles rubbish. i reckon the real reason he only spins theoretical poi now is cos they're even easier than socks... 
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"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
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[Nx?]
Scoiattolo de mare
Member #796
Reged: 05/11/01
Loc: Europe,Scotland,Both
212537
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23/03/04 05:10 AM
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yo,
and  for the monkey.
stone, I get ya, but its confusing.
transitions. when i say transitions i mean a change of plane. i.e. a weave does three circles on the left ouside wheel plane then 'transitions' to the right outside wheel plane for 3 circles. Transitions hapen at the bottom of the circle for forwards and at the top of the circle for backwards. Carries have two transitions, top and bottom.
t
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This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
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Rev
Bastard newbie messiah
Member #4257
Reged: 14/03/03
Loc: Apparently lost in my ego
212548
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23/03/04 05:35 AM
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that's it.. I'm finishing grad shcool.. getting my phd.. and moving to the uk... I'm sick of being out the friggin loop.. the thought of how much I could actually learn from someone or eve njust having people to spin with on a regular basis just blows my mind..
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More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
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coleman
big and good
Member #2914
Reged: 29/08/02
Loc: lunn dunn, yoo kay
212550
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23/03/04 05:37 AM
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wicked 
*waits patiently for rev to finish school*
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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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NYC
Newbie Wrangler
Member #552
Reged: 26/08/01
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
212568
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23/03/04 06:07 AM
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(UK) = (UK) + 1
(US) = (US) - 1
Damn. 
Actually, London and Louisiana are about the same distance financially anyway... so it's a wash to me. And if EVERYONE moves to London, that makes my vacation plans much easier.
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Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
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Stone
old skool clubswinger
Member #331
Reged: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
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24/03/04 12:33 PM
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Glad that was useful simian; and nx? it's certainly is confusing. Perhaps a point worth making is that for much of this learning stuff you need a system, and even if the system is obscure, as long as you can see a progression from basic (building block moves) to the more complex, then it makes sense, ummm.
Rev, to paraphrase Glass "use badly described poi words as inspiration, its far more rewarding to explore the territory for yourself, and to define perfection in poi for yourself, and to always aim and strive for that point".
I don't want to hijack Glass's thread with a discussion on transitions, but transitions are the passage from one form, state, style, or place to another (dictionary dot com) found in the sub-section ticks, under sleight of hand, next to it's all done with mirrors
--------------------
The ingredients of health and long life are
Great temperance, open air,
Indian Clubs, little care.
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Rev
Bastard newbie messiah
Member #4257
Reged: 14/03/03
Loc: Apparently lost in my ego
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24/03/04 02:09 PM
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the v stuff kinda makes sense.. I mean I follow the idea of the helix.. and all so I grasp the / and \.. I'm going to read over it again in a few days, I want to wait until I get done playing with some things before I start another theorizing tangent..that's the part of poi I love best.. aside from doing it and all..
as far as perfection in poi. yeah.. I know what it is.. its something I haven't achieved.. that's why I keep spinning.. otherwise I would be a quitter.. and rehab is for quitters.. Betty Ford clinic for poi... lol..
--------------------
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
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Stone
old skool clubswinger
Member #331
Reged: 13/06/01
Loc: Melbourne
213656
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26/03/04 11:55 AM
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Arrr, simian, I'm inclined to agree with your statement: "Godammit, follow and parallel are rubbish terms. What are terms for those timings irrespective of same\opposite direction"
I don't know the answer, except to say that with parallel moves, for example parallel circles to the right, your right hand is doing an outward circle and your left hand is doing an inward circle.
The term parallel is used when the movement is parallel from start to finish. Apparently, you don't use the term parallel, if you are doing a shoulder movement with one hand and hip movement with the other 
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The ingredients of health and long life are
Great temperance, open air,
Indian Clubs, little care.
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[Nx?]
Scoiattolo de mare
Member #796
Reged: 05/11/01
Loc: Europe,Scotland,Both
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26/03/04 01:09 PM
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au contraire...
I use the term paralel to refer to just that very thing, as long as the poi are pointed in the same direction at teh same time, i call it paralell. for egsample paralell extensions, wher one stays at the hip and the other does a shoulder circle and the poi make one line going round, cos they are in paralell time. *shrug*
T
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This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
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Stone
old skool clubswinger
Member #331
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26/03/04 03:59 PM
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I'd have to agree that's a good working definition of parallel Nix?, and the one I was using until I looked it up and confused myself 
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The ingredients of health and long life are
Great temperance, open air,
Indian Clubs, little care.
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DeepSoulSheep
________
Member #3146
Reged: 25/09/02
Loc: Ballybrack, Dublin
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26/03/04 10:33 PM
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I call then parallel when they aren't parallel
sorry I'm not helping am I 
*shrug* walks off to find some brekkie.
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I live in a world of infinite possibilities.
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polarity
Drunken Poi Master
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21/05/05 10:48 AM
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*thinks*
Hmmm. What this needs is some fancy computer graphics, and a scientific way of explaining moves to explain things clearly.
*/thinks*
Does anyone know how to put together computer models of this kind of thing?
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You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
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NYC
Newbie Wrangler
Member #552
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21/05/05 11:50 AM
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You need poibot. Is she still alive?
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Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
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polarity
Drunken Poi Master
Member #19715
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24/05/05 12:19 PM
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Ok, so my question was kind of leading. I just wanted to know if anyone else might do this first.
I've got a load of programming experience, just not in the right kind of languages for this (Povray makes nice 3d pictures from script, but it isn't for interactive stuff, just animation. JavaScript and Python I can do pretty well, but aren't really suited to online graphics). Also I know all the maths from A-Level for the inertia, momentum, acceleration and gravity calculations, along with the proper mathematical models of 3d space.
I think I could put together some interactive models, but I've got to learn to program the ActionScript language used for Macromedia Flash first. I need to do this for a load of projects, but this one starts off simple enough to get me into it, and in a field I'm familiar with.
There's no way I'd be able to add an acurately modelled person into the middle of it all, I'm going to be starting with real basic stuff like gravity (make an object in the movie accelerate downwards), circular motion caused by connecting the object to a revolving point/finger (apply momentum in the direction of pull), then move from a 2d system to 3d.
Failing that I could always see if I can find some freeware motion capture software, and a bunch of poiers who don't mind being filmed whilst covered in white spots! Putting M.C. info into a database hooked up to Flash might be easier on peoples computers than doing 3D calculations in Flash.
I'll see how it goes as I'm working on LED poi too at the moment.
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You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
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NYC
Newbie Wrangler
Member #552
Reged: 26/08/01
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
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24/05/05 12:59 PM
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Have you seen poibot on Sphericulism?
Somebody post a link.. I'm out the door.
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Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
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oli
the girl with cactus
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24/05/05 10:29 PM
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http://www.spherculism.com/help/poibot_009.html
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Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
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fluffy napalm fairy
"The Dropout"
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24/05/05 11:08 PM
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I wish I understood even a fraction of the original post 
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Geologists do it in the dirt................
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