Why the hell are all these untalented fire dancers trying to teach ppl

this disgusts me i have been doing fire performances for 8 years and and now all thes ppl who have been doing poi when there bored a few times a mnth are lighting up and thinking they can teach ppl / what the hell happen to the old days when you apprenticed someone with fire not a [censored] social gather if u want to learn pay ur dues . when i started i didnt even touch fire until after a year of training now it seems that every one and there brother thinks they can spin and blow fire hmmm maybe thats why u need so much safety info cuz they dont know what they are doing .the people who are serious performers and have been for years and make a living off of this stuff knows what im talking about.tips and tricks should only be shared through an appretinceship

yeah it can be annoying but its just a way of expressing, if someone has guts enuf to play with fire when they arent any good either is stupid or they mean to do well.
If someones is interested let em play they'll find out what happens if it is stupidity.

I would agree with you there, and i have noticed the same thing happening with a smal (but growing) group of people here.

one of the Ice-E FyreStorm performers was invited by someone to join them for an informal gig last month somewhere! She was fairly impressed by their "moves", but not so much their skill. She also noted that they have ABSOLUTELY NO SAFETY EQUIPMENT or any regard thereof!

I know these people, and i could have told her the same things, but then i do not particularly like to badmouth anyone, particularly when it's with someone who's about to go off and perform with them. At the time i just told her to be carefull!

As far as i have experienced, there are 2 types of fire performers (and i think ive said this before). There are the performers who dance because they love it, it's a passion! and then there are the people who are "ego-spinners" as they've been dubbed around these parts.

I have found that some people are impatient and just want to play with fire so they can say they can (EGO), they normally end up with this other group.

Nothing really bad has happened (not that i've heard of anyway), but it's just a matter of time, and they are so unprepared i don't really want to think about it.

Some people might even say (in this regard) that we are overly prepared! Personally i'd rather be safe than sorry!

I've gotten over it now! "...there are always people who will strive to exercise their god given right to be stupid..." [paraphrased from sum1 sumwhere!]

I'm afraid that Poi and fire spinning has moved beyond a professional art into the realm of hobby. Poi is one of the hugest hobbies out there at the minute, trust me I used to work at a juggling shop and every 30 seconds I would have someone come into a shop and they all would say "do you have those things on string that spin around I saw them at this party"

I too am a professional fire performer and make money out of it, but that doesn't mean that I won't teach someone how to play. The secretive only learning from a master approach sounds like something from magic where tricks are gaurded because they ARE secrets and if someone knows how to do them then it ruins the whole point. Juggling tricks and movement have been there the whole time it's just a way of moving your hands not some huge secret that will destroy an illusion

Yes people have hurt themselves loads and they always will because with the spread of it there will always be some drunk guy coming and going "give us a go" this is bad and you do have a point that people should learn more before lighting up

I don't hesitate to teach people that I meet playing in a park, because of the great people and great times that I've had from this medium. In an age where 98 percent of the population can't list a hobby and most people spend all their lives in front of a TV I think that anything we can do to get them out of their couches is a good thing.

sorry if this is a bit attacking for your first post, hope to have many fruitfull conversations with you

I think there is a difference between the hobbiest and the person that performs for a living.

I, personally, do not see anything wrong with a person coming up to another at a fire meet and having that person explain or show to another a certain move they have done with their poi or staff. When I ask a person to show me how they did something, I don't attempt it right off the bat on fire. I then go off to a corner and try to figure it out with my practice poi. To me, that's perfectly acceptable. Of course, I'm just the hobbiest poi/staff person. Sure, I have a gig here or there, but it isn't how I make my living.

If you intend to be an actual performer and make your living doing so, then yes, I think you need to spend a few years perfecting your skills,style, show, and audience appeal before attempting to get anywhere with your performing. But, for the hobbiest, I think it is perfectly fine to go up to another in a casual setting and ask for tips/advice/help with moves.

yeah but its all about enjoying it... just as long as ur careful

I agree with what Steve said, but I have to say I find the tone of Josh's post rather offensive. Was there some secret temple on a mountain that I had to get to before I could learn to spin fire? Any initiation rituals involving flame-bearing virgins that i missed out on?

Firedancing, with what ever type of kit takes your fancy, is a form of expressing one's soul, as all forms of dance, music and the arts are. To not teach people and share it as a form of expression is not only silly, as poi people are the nicest people in the world, but it's also repressive.

I will teach anyone who wants to learn, as long as I don't find them annoying.

I'm with mags and the rest of them.

I learned myself. I'm far from the best in the world, but I'm not bad.

I don't need to be an apprentice. There isn't a ranking system to Poi. This isn't a martial art. This is an art. We learn from each-other and by practice, practice, and more practice.

To say that I should have a "master" or "teacher" implies that there is someone who can learn nothing from me. Aside from a very few spinners, I haven't met many people who I couldn't teach at least one thing, even when they knew a lot more than I did.

This ain't Karate, this is poi. And I bend my knee to no spinner (except UCOF, but he's not into that sort of thing. ).

Josh, I think that is pretty harsh, especially for your first post here.
I started years ago too, before it was the realm of "hobby". Even then I was taught safety above all else. Nothing has changed there. The growing number of hobby-ists make the need for safety information to be more widely available, sure. But how is that a bad thing? Making people think about protecting themselves and others is never wrong.

However, this..and all circus/sideshow arts..have grown way past that. I agree with Shu in saying that many people do this for ego but many do it for sheer joy. They are common hobbies now, and in a way that is really awesome because it forces performers to step it up and stay on top of their acts, to push themselves to do better.

I don't agree with novices teaching. I don't agree with someone who has been spinning a week lighting up. I don't agree with someone just lighting up and spinning in black pants and calling it "a professional show", because it is not. I can't stop it but I can make my show as best as possible and focus on what I am doing so that I don't get categorized with people like that.

I do teach poi though. I teach staves and fans and all sorts of stuff, but not with fire. That is an entirely seperate course that they are only allowed to go through once they, and I, think they are ready. I do this to stop people from having accidents. I would rather teach and be part of the solution than stand by and complain and do nothing.

The thing is, the idea of apprenticeship is rather antiquated and outdated, and hard to find, in the modern US culture. We have trade schools where we used to have apprecticeships...for everything. An internet savvy person can find the how-to's to almost anything online. Or books...wow are there books on how-to. There are even circus schools popping up everywhere instead of just joining a circus and learning as you go. This is how things work now, and how things progress. Sure that means increased safety because there are increased accidents, it sucks but it is a side effect of our instant gratification culture. No amount of ranting will stop it so we might as well go with it and make the most of it...or get left behind.

Kindest regards,

hmmm.... right.. I'm god awful at poi... but I still do fire... and I don't care what some person that's arrogant about his own talents has to say about mine, or anyone else who does the same as me.

Its not illegal to teach poi if you aren't good at it... I've taught a few people at my school a bit of poi, and 2 people staff.... and Im probably one of the worst spinners on this board...

And nobody who can spin poi or staff or fire is untalented

cos if they were, they wouldn't be able to do it... a tiny bit of an oxymoron there ...

hell we were all crap when we originally started ey? We're not gods for crying out loud

i really disagree with you josh, i have only done poi for a year and i hold classes for people to come along and trade ideas and teach each other (i only charge for the rent of the building, no profit) i believe that you can learn anything off anyone, only last week i learnt bell spins off a 7 year old who picked up a flowerstick for the first time, so stop trying to put people down

Again I agree that the Master Apprentice system is a bit out-dated. Yes people should be careful when spinning fire, but to improove at spinning fire, you have to use fire.

I doubt I am the only person who has noted the way fire poi, staff and juggling torches move thorugh the air in a slightly different way.

I am mostly a juggler. The reason I do it is to relax I found it the best stress relief there is, and have now found myself locked in a battle to prove gravity is just a state of mind and if you try hard enough the balls will never touch the floor no matter how many there are and what pattern they do.

I was taught stuff by beginners and although they weren't skillful they gave me the bug and helped me meet a world of new and interesting people, to teach and to learn and to bounce new ideas off each other, (til I came on HOP didn't know ANYONE else who could juggle and do poi at the same time and I only started poi and juggling 1 YEAR AGO!! Time isn't an issue when your learning, just your effort and commitment
PLUS took part in the world record breaking Fire Breathing at stone henge.
It's all about what people love to do.

yeah isnt that what life is about neways... just being out there and learninga s much as you can trying not to restrict ur mind

I'm agreeing with everyone (apart from josh, sorry but i also found your post offensive). Poi is a hobby (a social one at that) rather than a profession for the majority of people on here. Although i do think people need to be careful with fire, i think that if you are aware of the dangers, poi can allow you to express yourself in a truely beautiful way.

I'm not that amazing at poi, but i took part in a circus skills club, and attempted to teach anyone who asked. Is there really any problem with sharing any knowledge you have, however little? especially if its going to let them gain as much from it as you have...

anyway. end of rant.

Well, i'll be a yes man too, once again excepting Josh, who again I will say his post was offensive.

I want to start up a local group. I have been spinning for 10 months now, I love doing it with fire BUT i do not consider myself to be a fire performer/dancer. I lack the grace and the skill... There may be more spinners out there, but lookee here, the world has a population of 60 billion (ish) of which there are about one billion people in the world who can use a computer. There are 20,000 members on HoP, I feel is the foremost community for poi spinners. Do the maths, its not detracting from your "art" or your earnings...

This community has helped me make many new friends, who share an interest, and share ideas. When did this become a bad thing?

[/rant]

Yeah, I reckon your right there Nuggit

Well spotted, but I think your a plank anyway (I joke, I joke )

I reckon Josh would have started off better with an introduction thread rather than a controversial one

I am a sort of apprentice... My step-dad has been teaching me since I was quite young.... does that count?

I have several masters lol... all poi'ers who are brilliant and inspire me, mind I suppose I wouldnt mind being called young padawan but no seriously poi is good for you why should it be kept from the masses?

josh this aint the dark ages!!!!

i been spinnin fire for about three months and poi-ing for under a year, i chose fire not because i thought it looked cool and dangerous but because i felt ready.

dont slam me down 'cos you learnt the hard way, nor because you think your better than everyone else!!!

i've learnt and taught with some of the best spinners aroun my area and quite frankly your attitude stinks!

ok so there are some know nothings that endanger themselfs and others, but the suck just as much as this holyer than thao attitude you have.

chill bruv and have some fun

I came to a certain peace when I realized that everyone does poi for a very different reason.

Some people do it purely for profit.

Frankly, I can think of a ton of ways to make more money with much less stress and effort, but that's me.

*coughelitistbittercrapcough*

Welcome Josh

Elitist?

What do you mean by elitist?

(Note: asking before assuming. )

Written by:

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Like teaching high school?

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Well, actually, yes.

To make the salary that I'm making, with the vacation I've got, and the job security, I think you'd have to work a HECK of a lot harder as a performance artist than I do as a teacher.

Oops... It's 2:45 PM and my work day is over in 10 minutes, I gotta run.

FRD taught me ppoi, I started roughly a year ago, and yet I have already done fire! This is because I was told of the dangers, but I am old enough to spin fire safely if told how to! I shook off the wicks etc, because I had experienced people to tell me what to do. It was probably the worst performance in history(weave, backwards weave and not much else) but this was because that was all I felt safe doing, if I had tried anything I was less confident about then I would have been silly, and people may have been hurt! I think it varies from person to person whether they can do fire or not, and it is the responsibility of friends to give helpful advice, not to get angry!

I must admit, it really pisses me off when I see unskilled fire-performers CHARGING MONEY for poi lessons or performances.
I fully encourage the trading of skills, tips, tricks, etc between EVERYONE under ANY circumstances -- for free, however, when you CHARGE MONEY to teach someone a skill, I believe you have an obligation to be GOOD at what you teach.
When you bill yourself as a "teacher" -- you no longer are just representing your own skills, but are representing the art of poi in general. As a teacher (charging money) people put you on a pedestal, and if you are mediocre, people will mistakenly believe that mediocre poi spinning is in fact "expert" poi spinning.
In essence, your students will take away an underrated view of how AWSOME poi spinning can really be...
If you just taught for free, it would be a friendly exchange of tips/tricks -- but when you charge money you inadvertantly become a "representative" of the art of poi as a whole....
I am rambling, hopefully I dont piss anyone off.