#744823 - 16/06/06 03:19 AM
the state of education today
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just lost .... evil init
Registered: 12/06/03
Loc: Adelaide
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ok so i know that if you have lots of money you have always been able to buy your university degree .... but heres the thing, my mum does exam supervision and at one of the exams she was supervising one of the overseas students called her over asking for help because he wasnt able to read the instructions on the front cover ..... not he was having trouble with one of the words on there he simply couldnt understand the instructions on the front page end of story ..... i mean really wtf like seriously surely if your going to university in a country that speaks a different language you should atleast be required to be able to speak and read the language
*shakes head*
and while im ranting about the state of education this guy did his phd in "the importance of food and wine in the life of don dunston" (former premier) but i mean really how is that a phd topic, theres guys in the physics department shooting tiny sub atomic particles with lazers and doing cool really hard stuff and at the end of the day they both get the title of dr. i mean really wheres the incentive to do something hard and innovative??? its just not right /end rant
_________________________
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
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#744824 - 16/06/06 10:53 AM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: ben-ja-men]
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Dreamer
Registered: 15/03/02
Loc: York, England
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Yeah, and my grandparents can't understand why I won't get a degree at a local college. I can't think of a bigger waste of several years of my life. Really, I'm taking enough of a gamble at york, methinks.
Have you seen phd comics? Its (according to friends very accurate) about life as a grad student at stanford, and it really depresses you... just in case you had any hope the education system was still useful.....
_________________________
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
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#744825 - 16/06/06 12:42 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: ben-ja-men]
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Are we there yet?
Registered: 14/03/01
Loc: australia
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I think there is great merit in any PhD topic.  Yep, even the life and times of Don's stomach, the intepretive moves of the brazillian butterfly, or the postmodern interpretation of the theme's of Dante's Inferno... It all adds to the body of knowledge we have in the world. There is value in producing results that can be applied to the world immediately, and there is value in exploring our past, producing nothing and just thinking and adding to our understanding of the world. A PhD is about a unique contribution to the body of knowledge, not about producing innovation.
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#744826 - 16/06/06 12:58 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Ade]
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I make my own people.
Registered: 02/10/05
Loc: Nashville, Tennessee
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Written by: ben-ja-men
ok so i know that if you have lots of money you have always been able to buy your university degree .... but heres the thing, my mum does exam supervision and at one of the exams she was supervising one of the overseas students called her over asking for help because he wasnt able to read the instructions on the front cover ..... not he was having trouble with one of the words on there he simply couldnt understand the instructions on the front page end of story ..... i mean really wtf like seriously surely if your going to university in a country that speaks a different language you should atleast be required to be able to speak and read the language
 You would like Ph.D candidates to learn English, while people are threatening to sue an American restaurant for asking customers to do the same.
Isn’t that discriminatory? You would provide a blind student with a brail test, or a wheelchair bound one with a ramp to the testing room. Why not let people take tests or order food in the language they prefer? Why should the host country get to pick the official language?
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#744827 - 16/06/06 01:08 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Ade]
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Insert Champagne Here
Registered: 21/07/03
Loc: without class distinction
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I do agree that there is merit in a wide range of PHD topics, but I think someones gastronomics is just a tad crap. It's getting a PHD for the sake of getting a PHD. My Spanish tutor is doing his on a little known poet because he loves the knowledge and the poet, the "dr" just comes with it. But seriously, who the hell cares about what a former premier ate for elevenses?
_________________________
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
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#744828 - 16/06/06 01:31 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Rouge Dragon]
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Registered: 27/01/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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Maybe, for some reason, the guy is actually interested in that I see what you mean about the language, my friend's just complained that some Americans and some Spanish at his (German) institute complain that not all lectures are held in English As if having more than half of them, both to help internationals and to help the Germans learn scientific English, wasn't enough!! I mean, if I went to registry here and demanded ANYTHING in German they'd laugh at me and tell me I should've signed up for German, not toxicology. Like my friend complained that everyone in Norway spoke "foreign"
_________________________
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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#744829 - 16/06/06 01:49 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Rouge Dragon]
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Are we there yet?
Registered: 14/03/01
Loc: australia
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Written by: Rouge Dragon
It's getting a PHD for the sake of getting a PHD.
and what's wrong with that? 
I can't think of a better reason really to do a PhD, just for personal satisfaction and a contribution to the body of knowledge in the world.
the more obscure, the better I say  
If you want to produce results that are useful in the world - go to TAFE
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#744832 - 16/06/06 04:40 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: FoxInDocs]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/02/06
Loc: Melbourne - home of pirates
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LMFAO...
I'd like to think that you go to uni to learn something rather than disappear up your own ar$e..
I'd love to go to TAFE.. they won't teach me what I want to learn, dammit!
_________________________
"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman
Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.
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#744833 - 16/06/06 05:24 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: ben-ja-men]
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Are we there yet?
Registered: 14/03/01
Loc: australia
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Written by: ben-ja-men
Written by: Ade
A PhD is about a unique contribution to the body of knowledge, not about producing innovation.
by that logic anyone who has ever written an autobiography should get a phd to 
Not quite - but if it was done to the rigourous academic standard that is accepted now for the completion of PhD canditure, then sure, why not? If it is done using accepted research methodology, and can contribute to the public record through original research, then yep, why not?
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#744834 - 16/06/06 05:25 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: wonderloey]
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Are we there yet?
Registered: 14/03/01
Loc: australia
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Written by: wonderloey
I'd like to think that you go to uni to learn something rather than disappear up your own ar$e..
the longer you hang around adacemic institutions, and the more you study one particular subject area, then, well, the ar$e scenario becomes increasingly likely...
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#744835 - 16/06/06 06:42 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Ade]
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100 characters max...
Registered: 11/01/02
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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 And considering how long you have been institutionalised... I would actually say on the other points too. I am increasingly worried by the drive to ensure that only "useful" study and research is done. It seems this comes from decreased government funding and increased need for corporate sector sponsorship. Okay, the eating and drinking habits of Don Dunstan is almost as massively frivolous as his love of safari suits. But it is a short step from that to so much art and english study, which does not really serve a purpose outside that field. The point there is definitely about adding to the sum of human knowledge.
_________________________
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
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#744836 - 16/06/06 07:59 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Ade]
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just lost .... evil init
Registered: 12/06/03
Loc: Adelaide
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Written by: Ade
Not quite - but if it was done to the rigourous academic standard that is accepted now for the completion of PhD canditure, then sure, why not? If it is done using accepted research methodology, and can contribute to the public record through original research, then yep, why not?
if through original historical research someone where to discover something that resulted in a significant shift of conventional thinking with a new paradigm then i can see how that would constitute a contribution to human knowledge, however writing about something that already known such as don dunstons love of food and wine imho is not a valid contribution for a phd and deminishes the value of higher education.
Written by: Ade
Not quite - but if it was done to the rigourous academic standard that is accepted now for the completion of PhD canditure, then sure, why not?
you cant be serious? equating research done by someone working on a cure for cancer with that done by someone writing a glorified autobiography by awarding the same level of degree lowers the value of the degree earned for cancer research imho
Written by: Rozi
I would actually say on the other points too. I am increasingly worried by the drive to ensure that only "useful" study and research is done. It seems this comes from decreased government funding and increased need for corporate sector sponsorship.
if the importance of food and wine in the life of don dunston is what does it for you, cool write a book, enjoy studying it for the love of study. im not saying dont do it, im saying its not appropriate phd material. Universities are supposed to be institutions of learning and new ideas, by letting anyone with enough money buy their degree or do a substandard project it taints the value of university education.
The point of research is to fill gaps in the literature not to rehash old information. this is another example of what is not appropriate for a phd, even as a masters project its a bit iffy. yes it hasnt been done before sucessfully in the published literature however the content of the problem is not sufficent to warrent a phd (the research committee rejected her application to upgrade from a masters degree to a phd for that very reason) as anyone with a knowledge of the area could solve it over the weekend. Research isnt for everyone if your not able to do it your not able to do it its that simple.
_________________________
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
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#744837 - 16/06/06 08:03 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Rozi]
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 14/07/05
Loc: Sihanoukville, cambodia
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Hmmm......i can kinda see both sides of the coin on this one.
Don't get me wrong i think having the freedom to do a PhD in a subject that genuinely interests you is fantastic. Not enough people actually enjoy the education they put themselves through, and anyone who can should go for it.
The other side of it though is I think it almost devalues the term Dr. slightly.
Dr.'s as a general rule are highly respected people, now I'm not saying you don't deserve the same amount of respect if you're not a Dr. or you are, but its in a very absurd area, not at all,
however....
Written by: Ade
Written by: ben-ja-men
Written by: Ade
A PhD is about a unique contribution to the body of knowledge, not about producing innovation.
by that logic anyone who has ever written an autobiography should get a phd to
Not quite - but if it was done to the rigourous academic standard that is accepted now for the completion of PhD canditure, then sure, why not? If it is done using accepted research methodology, and can contribute to the public record through original research, then yep, why not?
I disagree with your point Ade, although i can fully understand where you are coming from.
I fully agree that a PhD is a unique contribution to the body of Knowledge, but I also think that it should be innovative.
And as for the autobiography part- Hmm...still working out what i think on that one so will get back to you! 
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#744838 - 16/06/06 09:12 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: maus]
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had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Registered: 27/01/05
Loc: Edinburgh
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Well, I don't think it's wrong to research stuff like that, IF you're actually interested in it. But a PhD? Not sure...
There's an urban legend at my German uni about a dentist who got his Dr.-title by writing 3 pages about the hygienic storage of toothbrushes - I'm not sure if it's true. Even if it's true, it may be important enough for dentistry to be valid.
But to someone who's doing 3 or even 5 years of hard work it seems a bit ironic... even the medics' doctorates were usually literature summaries and took them 6 months!
_________________________
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
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#744840 - 17/06/06 07:07 AM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: ben-ja-men]
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addict
Registered: 26/05/05
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Written by: ben-ja-men
ok so i know that if you have lots of money you have always been able to buy your university degree .... but heres the thing, my mum does exam supervision and at one of the exams she was supervising one of the overseas students called her over asking for help because he wasnt able to read the instructions on the front cover ..... not he was having trouble with one of the words on there he simply couldnt understand the instructions on the front page end of story ..... i mean really wtf like seriously surely if your going to university in a country that speaks a different language you should atleast be required to be able to speak and read the language
*shakes head*
These people come here, get their degrees, then go back to whereever their from. Speaking English isn't a priority. There are lots of skill shortages in Australia because the uni positions are being bought.
Written by: ben-ja-men
and while im ranting about the state of education this guy did his phd in "the importance of food and wine in the life of don dunston" (former premier) but i mean really how is that a phd topic, theres guys in the physics department shooting tiny sub atomic particles with lazers and doing cool really hard stuff and at the end of the day they both get the title of dr. i mean really wheres the incentive to do something hard and innovative??? its just not right /end rant
The world is full of useless bullshit. Advertising, gambling, lawyers, accountants, direct marketing, people that fix problems that really shouldn't need to be fixed, fat cat executives/business owners, and millions of crappy books and movies that noone will ever read. Lots of these people are probably richer than you or I will ever be. Noone ever said life is fair.
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#744841 - 17/06/06 07:13 AM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Groovy_Dream]
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wandering thru the woods of WI
Registered: 27/01/06
Loc: Wisconsin
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just because you don't find it important does not mean it is not important to other people
maybe when studying his digestive habits they find an unknown bacteria or discover a plant that was not supposed to be there
my friend is studying the feminist literary gothic movement
not interesting or important to you but absolutely fascinating to his field, showing the roles of different works in the pre-1900's feminist movement actually influenced the one most of us think of now
_________________________
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
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#744842 - 17/06/06 08:52 AM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: ben-ja-men]
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NYC
Registered: 26/08/01
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
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Written by: ben-ja-men
ok so i know that if you have lots of money you have always been able to buy your university degree .... but heres the thing, my mum does exam supervision and at one of the exams she was supervising one of the overseas students called her over asking for help because he wasnt able to read the instructions on the front cover ..... not he was having trouble with one of the words on there he simply couldnt understand the instructions on the front page end of story ..... i mean really wtf like seriously surely if your going to university in a country that speaks a different language you should atleast be required to be able to speak and read the language
*shakes head*
and while im ranting about the state of education this guy did his phd in "the importance of food and wine in the life of don dunston" (former premier) but i mean really how is that a phd topic, theres guys in the physics department shooting tiny sub atomic particles with lazers and doing cool really hard stuff and at the end of the day they both get the title of dr. i mean really wheres the incentive to do something hard and innovative??? its just not right /end rant
You have clearly identified the 588426th and 588427th thing wrong with the state of education today.
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#744843 - 17/06/06 09:48 AM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: NYC]
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Member
Registered: 15/10/05
Loc: Caves Beach, NSW
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Have to agree with you Ben.
Having to explain the instructions seems like way too much help.
Entry into a university degree should not be a guarantee of completion.
Back in the mid 70's when I did engineering, half the first year class did not return for second year.
It should be a challenge
Frivolous Phd topics like that devalue higher education and just give the government another excuse to cut funding.
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#744844 - 18/06/06 06:04 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: jeffhigh]
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Member
Registered: 20/07/05
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"These people come here, get their degrees, then go back to whereever their from. Speaking English isn't a priority. There are lots of skill shortages in Australia because the uni positions are being bought. "
I'd say being able to understand the education is indeed a priority, wasting time and money failing because you can't seems a bit pointless. I also personally find it a priority for others to be able to understand the language used, have you tried doing group work with someone who you can't understand and who's work is probably bad even if you could translate it in to some actually readable form?
I don't mind so much if people are wasting their own time, though it does have other indirect effects on the education, but when it effects others in such a direct way then I see a problem.
However personally I see a lot more problems with the education system in the UK that are a far greater problem.
Edited by Kieron (18/06/06 06:09 PM)
_________________________
"I'm quite good at darts, though i often miss" - Kylie
"I'm not a bad driver, I just panic when theres other cars around" - Sarah
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#744846 - 19/06/06 01:12 AM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: alien_oddity]
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Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Registered: 24/01/06
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
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.....I love your sig. I really do.
I went to a high school that was ranked on News Week's "Public School Elite" list (apparently, our test scores were "too consistently high" to put us on the national top 100 list, so they made a separate list of fifty schools like that). We used our combined connections to figure out, however, we also had the highest drug and alcohol abuse out
_________________________
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
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#744847 - 19/06/06 01:39 AM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Kathain_Bowen]
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coming to a country near you
Registered: 09/03/04
Loc: home of the tiney toothy bear
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are public schools where you live "privately owned" or are they owned by the Gov.?
_________________________
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
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#744848 - 19/06/06 11:46 AM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Mr Majestik]
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Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Registered: 10/01/01
Loc: Adelaide, South Australia
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eh - by definition a Phd is a contribution to the body of knowledge. just because you dont understand how its contributing to the body of knowledge doesnt mean it's not (phew thats a lot of negatives for one sentence ). I think its a little bit disrespectful for people to judge the contributions of others without having any idea about the complexities of the subject area in question. For example I had a friend who was doing a Phd in Philosophy and the subject matter she was thinking about was almost incomprehensible to anyone who hadn't studied postgrad philosophy. No chance of it being profitable - so by a lot of the reasoning here it shouldnt have been done. I wonder where our modern science would be today without the contributions of philosophers from as far back as the ancient greeks - and yet philosophy is the first subject to cop crap as being useless, and is being squeezed out of universities to make more room for profit / vocational oriented studies. If the research is being done to be financially profitable it should be being done in private industry. If the research isnt profitable (eg Don Dunstan's eatng habits) then it *belongs* in the Public Uni system - contributing to the general knowledge of human kind. Perhaps DD's eating habits have actually had a profound and long lasting effect on our society that is so subtle we will never realise it until we have the computing power to crunch all the factors involved. Without the ground-breaking analytical research being done by this person we might never know I think the only scientific research that gets any public money should be directly related to the public good and should get carried out by public organisations like the CSIRO - eg better solar panels or sewage treatment or something like that. Personally I hate that my tax contributes to people researching topics like better weapons systems for killing people, which are then used to make profits for companies I dont agree with and kill people in wars I mostly dont agree with either. BTW in order to study an Australian uni course in English candidates do need to attain a minimum level of English on standardised tests. perhaps its too low, or perhaps some people get through the testing process with too low a level, who knows? either way that student that couldnt understand the instructions was going to fail - so the system works. Josh
_________________________
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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
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#744849 - 19/06/06 11:54 AM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: Mr Majestik]
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Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Registered: 24/01/06
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
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NJ public schools are government owned. My school just so happened to be a magnet school operated by our county's vocational school district. We were a rather.... er.... special school.
_________________________
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
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#744852 - 19/06/06 04:16 PM
Re: the state of education today
[Re: ben-ja-men]
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100 characters max...
Registered: 11/01/02
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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Written by: ben-ja-men
Written by: Pyrolific
by definition a Phd is a contribution to the body of knowledge.
by that definition i could record my bowel movements for 3 years and recieve a phd as i have contributed new knowledge to science, imho a Phd is about making a significant (ie the vine think i mentioned before was not significant as it was so easy) contribution to the body of knowledge.
As your phd supervisor for today, I would be perfectly willing for you to record your bowel movements for three years. However you would need to come up with a good question to answer by doing this. How about:
- Is there any relationship between a fascination with poo and work/life quality? Or
- How many shades of brown are there really?
You seem to forget that our Don Dunstan studier also had a phd supervisor. And had to put together a proposal for their research, refine it and have it accepted. They don't just accept any questions as "phd-worthy".
_________________________
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
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after all lack of funding forces the university system to run as a place of business
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