Poi as viewed by other object manipulators.

this comes from the glow vs fire thread, but i thought as a side topic it deserved a separate discussion:

Quote:

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Don't know about In other countries but in the UK Poi has had a real hard time getting the respect that it deserves from other forms of object manipulation. Mainly because it's got quite a low entry level and people seemed to make the leap that if it starts easy it must all be easy. This of course is a big pile of poo, it's not about about how high or low the entry level is it's about where you can take it to.

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this is only partly true.
as a fanatic juggler i hear the reasons behind this one a lot. and stick up for poi in a juggling-centric world.

the reason other manipulators don't like poi is this: someone starting to juggle takes up this much space: themselves. about 3ft in front of them. and they don't move.

someone starting to poi can learn the three beat weave and dance all over the place, taking up as much space as there is available, and sometimes more than that.

jugglers tend to be a bit more singleminded on trick-learning, which in general is a static activity, and spinners are more dancey( ) and focussed on being beautiful . if you are trying to learn 9444455555 and some guy keeps meandering through your pattern you are going to get pissed off. whereas most spinners i know if they are hit by another spinner will shrug it off (after an apology ) as an occupational hazard.

so this is what i mean by tim being part right.
altho low entry level is part of the problem(the fact that practically anyone can learn enough to dance in a day), most jugglers i know now accept that poi can be tricky, and wierd and wacky, and downright difficult. that doesn't stop them getting angry with what they view as a space infringement.


any opinions on this one?


incidentally it has been one of my major aims to get spinning more recognised by jugglers as a valid circus art, and i felt my mission was in some way fulfilled when luke burrage(juggler extraordinaire, hater of poi ) came up to me after a practise session at the bristol convention and said 'hey. nice poi stuff. is all that [censored] new?', and wanted to know how to get into contact staffcause he liked that too(may have just been polite, i've seen no evidence he's gone anywhere near a stick although knowing him he'll come to renegade in a year or so and spin 9 staffs at once )



happy cogitating and spacially-aware spinning
R

This is a subject dear to my heart; as someone who spent years juggling, then started poi just before it started appearing in juggling clubs I've seen how it was reacted to.

More recently I've become more aware of the space issues you mention (i.e. the jugglers perspective).

I've been working on a document on the poi/juggling situation which is currently 9 pages long, the main work on it recently has been to make it not only unbiased, but to try and make it so unbiased that jugglers will actually read it all the way through.

It's basically an attempt to show each sides view to the other, and based on the premise that the whole conflict thing was based on misunderstandings that can be resolved.

To summarise it very concisely, there are valid grounds for complaint concerning what jugglers have seen as a 'poi invasion' into spaces they set up; but, their approach of complaining (without looking for practical solutions), insulting spinners (whether directly, or through humour) and generally being elitist, has not helped at all.

Concerning Luke Burrage, having done a web search designed to find references to poi in juggling forums, Lukes was the only analysis of the issue that usefully addressed it in an unbiased way.

While I personally disagree with much of what he said, I respect the fact that he was objective and non insulting.

the fond memories of lukes fire work poi, thanks rob you just made me laugh by making me remember that video.

i dont think luke will be back in the country unitll the EJC though, prolly doing some crazy juggling.


back to the thread:

i got into poi, i now dont poi much, when i do its all good, my brain is constantly being fed ideas from other resources.

i juggle too much right now, im in the park as often as i can trying to get 3 clubs and think of new patterens with them, i got doubles consistently yesterday so im happy with that.

as for entry levels, i think learning to poi and to juggle are equally as hard as each other to get to a certain level, poi can be made to look so easy but we all know different.

juggling teaching wise has its benefits, if the person being taught is focused on site swap and can understand and go away and practice, juggling with numbers like that 441 you taught me the other weekis a lot easy for me to get to grips with, none of this you rigth hand has to be in this possition and so on so forth malark you get with teaching poi.

i think slowly the juggling society is coming to terms with the whole poi thing, especially here in the UK, there are so many people now learning poi and the demand to get better is increasing all of the time, i think we in the UK are more fortunate that we have a higher standard of spinners, dont get me wrong, every where has standards, but i feel like there has been so much new poi stuff come from london than any where else and every one is getting so damn good. i think with all the standards getting so high and most of us into juggling as well and turning up at juggling conventions its getting far more better recognition now, and hopefully more in the next few years.

as for the rest of the world i wouldnt be able to contribute on the subject, i havnt experienced any thing out side of the UK.

things are looking up for the poi world, i hope other manipulation societies will join us and find a better understanding of whats driving the poi scene world wide.

resources are ever growing and more and more communities are popping up around theirs, so why not be open minded about poi.

being good at some thing isnt the be all and end all, its about the benefits you get from it personally and doing what you enjoy.

i enjoy unicycling, juggling and poi... it keeps me sane in a way, i keeps my brain occupied, keeps me fit, i like to do them all as much as i can and inturprate them all into each other in the way of patterns.

anyway be kewl... nice topic.

thanks guys, you(dave) were one of the people i was really aiming this thread at, as someone who is good at both and objective from soo many angles




i couldn't agree more with your sentiments on jugglers being elitist tho... i think that is a reflection on the fact that juggling is the 'premier'(would say first, but diabolo...?) form of object manipulation, i.e. the one practised by more people than any other...

would you object if i could have a read of what you are compiling dave? it is a subject i have felt veryvery strongly about for a long time and so would be really interested in hearing your in-depth arguements on it...

cheers
R

I have little to say on this issue as i think both are completely seperate arts that have difficulties/easiness throughout each. The only problem that really exists seems to be various peoples over inflated ego's about which is better and thus tends to be the art they do. The folk who do both seem to be very neutral (ie OWD)

But....I have a question

There are a lot of throwing moves in poi, infact I read PoiPoiPoi say that he was beginning to experiment spinning poi without spinning at all, and only using knocks and throws in a performance. And from looking at the videos onhis website he throws very fluidly and his transitions are par none.....so (question in here somewhere!) would this count as juggling?? And if you're combining a lot of throws and knocks throughout a poi performance would it be more acceptable to the juggling crowd who don't like poi??

My general view is this:

I try to be courteous when I'm practicing around others. Other than that, I could give a rat's posterior what anyone thinks about me spinning poi. And if a juggler wants to be a snooty brat about it, then that's his problem.

And not mine.

Sorry, I guess I'm sort of a party-pooper when it comes to these sorts of debates because I'm very much a pragmatist.

i don't think its particularly throws that make something acceptable to a juggly crowd, although when i've been practising them, some jugglers do take a second look they wouldn't usually....
more just something different they are after: something innovative, not the usual stuff...

i've seen some poi routines get huuuge rounds of applause at juggling conventions, but its usually for one of two reasons: either there's a gimmick(the bouncing football guy, i don't know his name, but there'll be a couple of people on here who could tell you who it is...) or the routine is tightly choreographed and fairly technical...

R

that is a really good essay dave

although it makes it a bit tricky to write an interesting reply to, cos it says it all really.

a juggler from Brixton was telling me about a workshop he went to where he started balancing a basketball on top of a broomstick on his nose, standing on a roller-bola and spinning simple poi stuff at the same time.

Someone went up to him and said
"I'm sorry, but we don't do poi here. Can you take those outside, please."


It's got to a stage where this is a cliche that is generally treated more as a joke, but the stereotype of the bad poi spinner does still linger a bit. Probably because there are lots of inconsiderate spinners about. i try to maintain a healthy paranoia about invading peoples space when at proper juggling workshops (such as the Brixton or Highgate workshops). As a result i do lots of double staff practice right next to walls. Which helps my planes no end

youse guys are too considerate of others' opinions of twiralage.
IMHO if anyone don't see the beauty of poi, then it is not our loss

also learning twirlage is like training a parrot to talk:
easy to obtain, difficult to master!!
:dons a peg-leg:

IMHO,

I think jugglers hate poi because to the general public someone spinning basic poi is more impressive than someone juggling 5 balls, so they get a big chip on their shoulder about the percieved disparity of skill levels between say numbers juggling and poi.

Additionally I think that poi has been ridiculed in the past by jugglers as its too 'dancey' - ie, its skill level to space required ratio is too high. But now as we find people who can do all of their most crazy technical moves in teh same space required for a three ball juggler, its becoming more accepted.

I think this may be damaging poi as an art form, but to each their own.

hehe - one of my original reasons for wanting to learn 5 balls was to show juggle snobs that a twirler was capable of holding his own on a traditional skill too, but now that I can run five with not too much trouble, I find it bears its own rewards.

I think jugglers are just scared to dance, which sucks, cuz dance juggling is just *super*

Josh

I like James Ernest's views as expressed in his Contact Juggling book. From memory, he looks at the type and number of object/s being mainpulated. Like one object (pen) 2 (poi) 3 (balls) and so on. IMHO it takes a lot more practice to manipulate 3 or more.

I've been to the local "Juggle Jam" (melbourne) and they don't mind poi, that much, and many do diablo. Though, I've heard it said locally, that poi are for jugglers who can't let go. Dunno whoses having a tug there. I started with do poi and now I juggle.

Also there seems to be less resentment if you swing clubs (especially if u do a few throws). In some respects clubs seem to be the middle ground b/t swinging and juggling. Go clubs

When I contact juggle I use way more space than with poi as I seem to spend the whole time flinging the ball across the room.

Is that not what you're supposed to do then?

a good point Eera that seems to argue against the 1,2,3...object statement....no?

after all breakdancing(or even just 'dancing') has NO object to be manipulated, and that to me is waaaaaaaay harder than ANY stuff that i do.

as for the clubswinging... while on the whole i have found that to be true, (that clubs are a 'way in') espescially as i swung clubs weeeell before i started poi, funnily nough the worst reaction i have ever had is from a club swinger who thinks poi are what you spin if you can't do clubs well enough....*shrug* but i've learnt to ignore this tiny minority(hes not the only one, but nearly)....

Dave thats an awesome article.
and comes to pretty much the same conclusion as me: that the major problem is a space issue(in terms of: taking up too much, 'our' space, etcetc.)
and has some damn fine suggestions too that both spinners and jugglers would do well to heed.
i don't feel it adds to the problem by talking about it... as you so eloquently wrote one of the problems has been with a lack of understanding of each others viewpoints. and surely the point of this board and this topic is to bring about a better understanding between disparate groups?

i quite like the london approach to this one.
'spinning' nights on tuesdays and fridays
'juggling' nights on wednesdays and thrusdays
and people from one are quite welcome to go to the other, as long as the 'main' focus is not infringed upon.

one of the bestest things that is bringing the two communities closer are people like yourself dave, drew, cole, adam(both) and others who are quality jugglers who are also very fine spinners; bringing the followig questin to the juggling community hive-mind: 'if its so easy and uninteresting, then why are they doing it...? hmmm. maybe there is something to this poi-thing after all....'

big up all the ambassadors on both sides, and long may the two live in harmony

R

I've started to play around with juggling and I take up alot of room. I'm still in the walking/juggling phases, I occupy a 10 foot corridor of space whenever I juggle, unless I stand facing a wall

i find a bit of psychologhy normally works.

Start of being crazy and wild and take up about 3 times as much space as you need, then when someone complains say you're sorry and you'll try to contain yourself, slowy reduce the amount of space you take up until you're a sane(?) and normal-amount-of-space-using person and they will thinky you're wonderful!

aimee, its not quite as simple as that.

dave's article explains it better than i ever could but the main point is that these spaces were set up as juggling clubs - places where people could specifically go and practice juggling.

if another discipline starts to monopolise that space you can see where people might get huffy.

imagine starting up a space for people to practice netball skills and gradually more and more people turn up to use the space for football skills.
when it gets to the point that there is no room left to play netball you can see the problem.

great article dave - i would have replied before but you and roberto said it all