Diluting the arts?

i saw a video on youtube of a poi performance at a talent show and a comment on there got me thinking. it said that talent shows and the like are diluting the original idea of poi and the arts. thoughts on this?

do you feel that the commercialisation of arts like poi and staff is ruining the traditiong and community or is the increase in popularity a good thing?

Its a hard thing to say. I'd love to see more people pick up poi but I don't want to see it done for the wrong reasons.

(forgive me I'm going to borrow a bit of this from Nick of playpoi because he said it so well)

I don't want poi and the arts to become what has become of modeling and fashion. You see little kids from an early age never given a choice and thrown into the commercialized world and told "this is your dream" and they have no option but to follow it as a child, then when they're adults they simply don't know any other path. I do love poi and I think everyone should pick it up, when they're ready and want to be a part of the community. This is a truly magical art that only means something if you have the joy of discovering it for yourself, that said having it forced upon you will destroy whatever it could have meant. There would also be the stigmata that comes with it being a mainstream commercialized product that people who otherwise would've loved the freedom and expression would be turned off to. Right now the poi community is strong, just look around there's us at playpoi, Shawn and Prisna at flowtoys, cole, everyone at HoP and everyone else around the globe who work everyday to not only practice our technique and our spinning, but also to keep the community alive and healthy.

yes this is true but i wish i would have found poi earlier especially as a child if i ever have kids i will make it available to them

I'm going to have to say that I don't think exposure is going to ruin it. I've known about poi since my late teens (I was a big part of the rave, goth/rivethead, and indie scenes), but having too much on my plate in early adulthood and a bit of a fear factor I didn't pick it up until I was 27 last year.

Now that many of the things that took up my time back then are gone and I've grown into a more confident person who wishes to work hard on the art, now is my time. Like almost every other activity that involves a combination of practice and creative expression, a mainstream participation is highly unlikely. The exposure is probably a good thing for those who don't have spinning friends or go to spin friendly events in some of the different subcultures.

but even if it did go mainstream that would mean there would be more input on poi and how it is done with more people spinning there would be more people wondering is this possible? then more moves would be made and it could be a good thing

I have one comment about "mainstream" in the form of a youtube video....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EPAZgogDTA

....

I would guess that the next step is to move more ones-self with the toys. We might have to notice that (unless you keep practicing every (alternate) day) that poi will move on into realms beyond our wildest imaginations.

And we can claim to have been a part of it, having helped it spreading, passed it on to the next generations and see what they come up with.

If not moving out of the way, the train of progression usually runs right over. Our best bet is to jump on it and see where it carries us.

btw: we've been talking about the same topic for the past .... 10 years or so. "is poi becoming mainstream?" what is 'mainstream' to you?

I think mainstream would be when you can say something like "I spin poi for fun." someone doesn't assume you put a food item in a bag and whirl it above your head. ^_^

I had to post a comment under that video. It's bizarre that someone has tried to rebrand contact juggling so that they can sell it to someone other than hippies. With that said they are selling their contact balls quite cheap.

It reminds me of the WowBall (diabolo) thing in the late 80's / early 90's.

mes: okay, I can see where you're coming from, yet the area between "underground" and "mainstream" (to me) is a vast one. Couldn't say that (playing) Conga is mainstream.

As to: "is it diluting the art" - I wouldn't think of it this way. If it were to become mainstream it would make it only richer.

We love doing it - everybody should share the experience...

[ed]btw: those Fushigi might only be these very cheap Chinese plastic balls - epoxy or something, nothing like them Acrylic ones.

Over the years this topic has resurfaced enough times that I’ve no fear about poi ever being a sudden craze. If anything I think poi uptake is at a plateau or falling, within the UK anyway. Sure, when poi was big in the UK you couldn’t move through a festival without being hit by a stray poi and it got a bit tedious and full-on, but I recognise that as my flaws manifesting. I wanted to be the different & special one with the cool toys! As it was I still enjoyed spinning as much as I ever had and luckily this attitude was buried underneath seeing how fun people were finding spinning poi. I introduced quite a few people to poi and taught many more newbies over the years and across the globe and like to feel that I never withheld teaching due to my prejudices or selfish desires.

The more people that spin poi the better! Share the love around. There will always be a few crap people who you don’t like the idea of, especially crap performers, but they’ll always exist regardless of numbers and an increased awareness of something does raise the professional skill level required.

And many years ago there were a lot less fancy tricks and cool toys to play with, so you can thank increased popularity for your hyperloops, anti-spins and led poi.

Lastly, even if poi becomes a massive craze, then all crazes die down and what’s left is the few dedicated people who find something that truly connects. There have been a lot of crazes and their lifetimes are shorter than ever, but largely they’ve all faded away.

Summary: do something for the love of it, regardless of why other do.

I only worry about terrible performances being aired on Britains got Talent and it tarring the professional performers.

other than that it's not too much worry.

@ meshunderlay, that video that is sacrilege, micheal mochasen should launch a lawsuit, i really hope someone leaves an acrylic out in the sun at their head office...

I laughed at first seeing that video and thinking it was a joke, then cried a little when I realized it was real.

Also, yeah, I'm pretty sure they aren't "quality" balls.

If that is a Fushigi ad (can not see it yet), then apparently they are not too bad actually.

Aston - Yes it is. They look quite cool to be honest and (as I said above) pretty cheap at $20(US).

As for the question. Like Dom said. This has been debated so many times. I'm fairly sure that it is not limited to this community (I can guarantee that it's not as I've had it elsewhere too). In fact I bet every arts community has this debate repeatedly. Eventually if it does become popular then the scene will split and those who want to compete will go one way and those who just want to enjoy the art will go another.

You only have to look at the juggling community to see that in action over the last few years.

I think you have to welcome everyone into a community. I was welcomed with open arms and I hope I extend that to others. The larger the community gets the more diverse it becomes. There are now so many style variations on spinning. Several years ago that was just not the case. Almost everyone worldwide was spinning in roughly the same way. Increased numbers brought increased creativity and have led to so many new branches (wibbles, tangles, isolations, flowers, antispin...). Different combinations of these give people the ability do develop radically different styles.

As more people have got involved in all of the performance (circus) arts the skill lever has risen astronomically. It is almost terrifying what is seen as a 'beginner trick' these days. The quality of some youtube video's in the last few years is better than a low budget movie.
With that said I think it can only be a good thing. Anything that improves the art is always a bonus.

Seye: I agree. I will teach anyone who asks me to. My only hope is that they do not try for a while and then decide it is too hard (although I am guilty of this with devil sticks I guess).

I think more people will only make what we do more popular. Also, the more people try something, the more they appreciate real skill with it.

The number of people who have told me: "I tried that once. Nearly burned myself" though.... :wall:

I think that is the answer to Mynci Lee's issue. If people see lots of people doing something badly it is infinitely more impressive when they see a professional.

As for the "I tried that once..." comment, I'd settle for not being asked "Is that fire hot?", that wound be a start.

Actually here in Seattle poi is pretty popular in the active rave and festival scenes, and you see the kind of divide you mention actually occurring. The "tech spinners" definitely end up creating their own spaces to improve and display their technique more seriously, and the less dedicated spinners definitely have more appreciation for the techiness than a casual onlooker might.

(The comment I hate is "I would hit myself if I tried that." Yes! You would! Just like I did! GAH!)

its funny that sometimes amateur spinners can get more appreciation because it looks difficult for them, if your doing crazy techpoi but are good enough that it looks easy then you don't get a second glance!! found this in a nightclub last year when i was doing a gig, a girl came up to me and asked for a shot cos she knew some poi, all she had was weaves and split time butterfly but she got loads of spectators!!!!
(ok the fact that she was really hot may have helped matters!!)

I didn't read beyond OP so forgive me if I repeat anything already said

It is a two way street as with everything in this world, someone somewhere will always find a way to pervert the popularly instated foundation of anything and use it for personal gain. That said, everyone's reason to spin is different, some people do it as a meditation, some do it for a spiritual connection to whatever they decide, some do it as a performance art, and sadly some do it in an attempt to raise themselves above others. Whenever I meet or hear of a person that spins poi with an ego it truly angers me, I really care about this and someone is out there ruining people's opinion of it by destroying the reputation of all poi spinners and enforcing a predisposition of talent=douche.

I digress, the point of this thread as I perceive it is more along the lines of commercialism and popular knowledge of twirling in general "diluting the arts" and I wholeheartedly disagree, just because it is being seen by more people and being performed more openly does not mean we are "selling out" or "diluting the art" in any way, it just means that twirling is beginning to gain popularity. Isn't that a good thing guys? I personally disagree with performing for more than entry/food/drink comp but that's just my idealistic point of view. Basically, through simply spreading the art we are far from diluting it, we are enhancing it, we are bringing it to maturity and we should be proud! There will always people that pervert our idealistic purist views and do it for personal gain but that is bound to happen in anything involving a show of talent or display of artistic ability, ignore the posers, embrace the advancement and pray that we can all take part in this artistic revolution we have joined because I truly do see twirling as a movement, a display of perfect relationship between people and objects.

But I'm just a crazy drinker with a spinning problem ;D

this is what im thinking about with an increased popularity more of these people are going to be around. im glad im not the only one that feels so strongly about this.



and really? thats funny im a crazy spinner with a drinking problem. two bottles one mouth

The problem I've seen with BGT is they rarely show talented spinners / jugglers / hoopers. only the aweful and the drops. if they DID show someone good it would be nice, however I get the impression good performers don't go on there purely because of Simon Cowells aparent aversion to Juggling.

Actually.... well, I don't want to spread rumors, but I've heard things about performing on those shows.
I think it's a good mode of publicity maybe if you've been performing and want to spread your own word, but aside from that *shrug*.
Not like I know, I'm just retelling things I've been told that other people were told, kind of.... lol.

the more people, the more the joy.
period, that's all.
like with digital cameras-some photographers are pissed as hell about how many people call themselves photographers-let alone eek out a living doing it. the rest just let them do as they please.

let people try it out and take it or leave it. it's not diluting, its broadening horizons

As for those shows only showing crappy spinners... This is the worst I dont care if he's only 15 or whatever. I'm only 16 and I was better than this little after a few weeks and he even used fire snakes. That's not balls, that' being stupid.

This actually made it to TV and he received so much praise. One of my friends saw it on TV and that's how I know about it.