Coloured flames and toxicity

does anyone have a recipe for any coloured flames that don't involve using super toxic chemicals? Cause the ones I have looked at all sound a lot worse in the toxicity department than low odour kerosene.

also, does anyone know if kerosene is more toxic than low odour or is it the other way round? cause I was thinking since additives to the chemicals make it that much more toxic (i.e. odour-controlling additives and additives that change the colour or whatever) - wouldn't low odour kero have more stuff packed into than average kero?

or does it come down to basically just where you get it from cause its all such a different mix all over the place?

just curious =)

good luck...

thanks ... =(

I dunno, I've been using this lamp oil that say it is "99% pure paraffin", low smoke low odor. Someone told me that the other 1% is benzene, which is extremely toxic (then again, I'm not fire-breathing), but neither he nor I have verified this.

Also, I've been told that the coloring additives tend to wear out your wicks faster, and that once a wick has been soaked in a coloring additive, it keeps that color flame, but again, I haven't verified this. Anyone?

have you been to

www.geocities.com/firepoi ?

this has a good fuel guide (if I remember rightly).

also, I am planning to use boric acid to colour my flame green/blue and I thought this was pretty non-toxic. I am absolutely not a chemist, though!

good luck.

if your doing a show dont tell the audience its roach poison ( boric acid )your using....they freak out.

I didn't know it killed roaches - I didn't know anything killed those tenacious little buggers.

the site that I mentioned above contains a link through to www.redox.com.au/msds/ which tells you about any specific chemical you want to use, so that could be helpful.

yea....you can buy a big container of boric acid for 4 bucks at the hardware store.....its sold as roach poison.

colours [ chemical ]

red/orange [ calcium ]

purple [ potassium ]

intense yellow [ table salt ]

blue [ mineral turpentine }

green ( copper sulfate ]

aqua [ chloride ]

I know that they are not non-toxic but that doesn't mean they are not fun...

good luck finding non-toxic ones or suppliers

Hmmm, long time since my chemistry lessons, but I think that it's the metal ion that gives the colour, but toxicity depends on what the ion is complexed with (e.g. the salt). So yes, barium carbonate is a rather yukky rat poison, but barium sulphate is pretty innocuous - they actually feed it to you in hospitals if you're having a gut X-ray.
However, if you're burning these things in the presence of a whole load of other oragnic molecules (like, well, most fuels) I'm really not sure what kind of compounds you'd be cooking up. However, since burning organic molecules produces lots of nasties all by itself, I suppose the whole thing is relative (how many of you smoke cigarettes?).

Anyway, here's another list of fun goodies to think about....I'll try and find out a wee bit more from some real life chemists.

Sodium: golden-yellow
Potassium: violet (lilac)
Lithium: carmine-red
Calcium: red-orange
Strontium: crimson
Barium, molybdenum: yellow-green
Borates, copper (except halides), thallium: green
Lead, arsenic, antimony, bismuth, copper: blue
Copper halides or other copper salts moistened with hydrochloric acid: blue-green
Strontium: scarlet

shit!!

have you read the redox sheet on boric acid??

i was all set to head out and get some (*loves* green and blue!) but now i'm sufficiently scared!

what's it like, those who have tried it. are the fumes really so dangerous? ack!

umm.. I *was* looking for non-toxic additives for colour in my fire...

ykat - yeah I read the Boric Acid info and freaked out too - which was why I posted my original message.

Boric acid is somehow ok cause it is only used for cockroach killing? Doesn't that say enough by itself, cockroaches survive a-bombs!
my bf has used copper sulphate i think - but he said it had all the warnings similar to boric acid all over it. Subsequently he didn't use it often or since then.

I have basically lost my desire for coloured flames over reading redox info. Almost wish I hadn't had the desire to be 'informed' =)

Ditto Splat, I'm also rather going off this whole idea - I asked a pro chemist for his opinion and he said the following.........
"About the flame colouring ideas - frankly my first reaction was disquiet!
My next was to warn you absolutely against Thallium and Arsenic in that order.They are no fun to handle properly and can both play nasty tricks - not least because of volatility, and extreme toxicity which is often insidious and cumulative. 'Nuff said.
You are right about Barium Sulphate.It is too insoluble.But you have to remember the flame is only coloured because
the element is released free into the flame, and inhlation of a poison is often the most efficient route of administration. It is one thing to do the occasional flame test on a mg. or so, but quite another to have a
large flame running for a minute or two (120 secs. maybe?), and inhaling of course as you practice."

I think I'll probably stick to flame-coloured flames......on the other hand - does anyone one know any theatrical special effects people? They have loads of pyrotechnic goodies that have presumably been "safety approved" since they're often used indoors. Hmmmm, smoke trails, sparklies and then finishing with exploding pois - hubba hubba!!

I've done a bit of looking into colored flames using alcohol and a metal salt.

As far as I can tell Boric acid is pretty safe. Being in the "if you eat enough of it you can die" category. Otherwise exposure to small amounts is pretty safe.

I think the following are pretty safe.

Table Salt --> Yellow.
Calcium Cloride --> Orange.
Boric Acide --> Green/Yellow.

Other things to think about.

You can't color parrafin flames because the orange 'black body' radiation from the soot in the flame swamps any other color.

You have to get the metal ion into the flame. The problem being is that the flame is burning vapor and the salt is disovled in the _liquid_.

Hmmm....

well, i'm new, but it's getting close to the 4th of july, so my brain is cooking up ideas with fireworks...

i was thinking of the little colored strobe thingies...but i think this equates to trying to poi with flares...seems a bad idea to hit yourself with something that burns so hot...

next thought was smoke in the daytime...maybe rigging up different colors or such...

hmm...just random thoughts..

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this fire and i dance among the stars

Potassium Permanganate seems to be the choice for purple flames.

Seems to be relativly safe as per MSDS, except it says that "Forms sensitive explosive mixtures with ... sulphur". Isn't that what gives kero the smoke/smell? Anyway, there's probably not enough sulpher in there all the same...

I remember we used to burn this stuff over bunsens in science class, don't think it's extremly toxic, but long term effects... who knows.

Shall experiment on rags beforehand. =)

Real live chemist here... Dr. Noodlehead is right on about both the colors and the toxicity depending on the anion. I try to stick with metal-chlorides when doing flame tests in my class. My kids love to burn LiCl (lithium chloride) because it gives such a deep red color. I do know that the metals stick around for EVER in the bunsen burners so I wouldn't be surprised to find some of your wicks burning perminantly a different color after dipping in a metal solution.

You may want to call some of the chemistry suppliers and pull the whole "Hi I'm a chemistry teacher and I'd like a catelog..." As most of them have the warnings listed for each of the chemicals as well as the prices and such...

If anybody has any specific chemistry questions I'll gladly look something up for ya!

i'm a bit late.so how much do you have to add,for example,from the boric acid?

the reason why barium sulfate is not hazardous and can be used in X-rays is that it is completely insoluble. it's insolubility is what allows the X-ray to see it, and being insoluble it doesn't matter the toxicity of the barium itself, as none of it will dissolve in your bloodstream. because the barium sulfate is insoluble, there is no reason to even consider it as a potential flame colorant, as it first must dissolve in the fuel. i am quite confident that other than the organic fuel combustion products which are potential carcinogens and unavoidable by anyone performing with fire, the major hazard is from the metal species of any salt used for coloring and not the sulfur, chloride, etc. these simply help in determining the extent to which the salt will dissolve in the solvent/fuel. some metals such as Calcium, Potassium, etc. (most 1st or 2nd row of Periodic chart metals) are not at all dangerous, while others such as lead arsenic, antimony, and mercury are quite harmful. For other elements, consult an MSDS(http://www.geocities.com/firepoi/)for safety. also note that the MSDS must be read carefully to determine exactly what the dangers are. with Boric Acid, for instance, many of the health hazards listed are for prolonged exposure to large quantities of solid air borne particles, not with small amounts dissolved in a burning fuel. i would consider any health hazards from using Boric Acid as a flame colorant to be minimal in comparison to the health hazards from being in close proximity to the benzenated byproducts of any burning organics such as the fuel that we all use.

I 100% agree with skapegoat.

I looked up the toxicity of both in the Merck Index and found that Boric Acid is pretty bad IF you eat it. Death has been reported in adults from injesting doses from 5-20 g. On the other hand, I didn't see much in the way on warnings from breathing small amounts of it.

Kerosine (and other fuels) have considerable warnings about inhalation (Headache, drowsyness, coma.)

If you're really worried about toxic chemicals, you picked the wrong hobby.

[Yeah, yeah, there are still plenty of ways to limit your exposure, pick less toxic fuels, etc...]