Testing the demand for a new poi separatist group

Hmmm, I think I might be the only member of this minority by now... just thought I'd see if there is still a group of weaving, butterflying nuts out there. I'm going to call this group of few or many:

the New Ideas for Circular Exploration alliance (NICE)

We at NICE, feel that simple weaves and butterflies are very nice and deserve to still be allowed to be considered innovative and fresh if explored well.

Seriously though, I LOVE them and I still don't feel I'm even half way through with them. Give me 20 more years, then I feel I'll -really- be weaving and butterflying.

I would love to hear from any like minded 'Applicants' and any nice ideas they may have. Please

Jo.

we at Circles Remove Aesthetic Principles (CRAP) disagree.

Well said Bluecat! *laughs*
Jo, check out Spherculism for a step by step increasing of weave and butterflie variations...don't know if that came out right. It's got tutorials of basic weaves, then he'll add one more point to it every tutorial til he's doing 7bt btb reverse with fakey and backflips ^.^'

I was thinking of forming the Circles Are Nice Too group yesterday.. "CAN'T" has a nice positive ring to it

Ha ha nice one guys, thanks I think?

The irony I think I was aiming at is that if you calculate the number of weave/bfly variants (like I'm sure you Sphercs have by now nutters )

Because I'm lazy lets assume it's 100 (conservative, right?)

That means any combo of 2 there's 10000 combos, 3 = 1000000, 4 = 100000000

And that's before you multiply by infinity for body movement

And then multiply by infinity for execution.

Also, if anti-circle is assumed to be the only possible route for future innovations, then they could dry up (burn out) just the same when the old 'dancer' ethos of 'tech can't flow freestyle' actualy *does* become trueish... ...just a thought - doesn't mean I can't wait to see and perform new crazy, crazy stuff.

Maybe if creative energies were shared more evenly the flow will be Intrinsically linked at the same speed as the technical progression. That is what I've tended to strive for in myself, but is also why I'm technically behind so the case works both ways.

Don't worry, I will be catchin' up with you *true* techies at some point but I have pressing priorities right now.

Jo.

PS there are plenty of sexually circular moves in my head just *itching* for the skill to come out. I know you guys must have the same dreams but aren't letting on (or do you only dream arcs and globes these days?... )

I am completely with you Jo - you da man!

Katinca and I have coined the term 'Renaissance' to describe the stylistic group that I think you are getting at. Basically we are trying to fuse the spirit of the old school dance twirlers with all the full body flow, spirit, musicality and execution with the current movement of twirling, contortions (5bt btb etc) and poi centric moves (stalls, loops, isos, etc). Of course this also extends to all other toys; clubs (the essence of what we are talking about), doubles etc. I think it can be applied to contact staff too. Basically we are post-technical and post-post modern :P

lol I think I might get flamed for this..oh well. its been a while

And yeah - you take a hit on your tech points, but IMHO its worth it.

Josh

Oh no...

We true hardcore poists have been spinning boxes for quite some time now! Circles are so outdated.

On another note, it's amazing what one can do with circles, a couple different directions and planes to spin, as well as an infinite amount of rotation points.

I'm still learning, I'm too used to the ADD spazziness of spiraling wraps.

I like what you said in PM Jo, of dance versus technical. It has been on my mind for quite some time, and I try to follow a middle road down the two paths. I'm not quite on either path I feel.

EDIT- Josh, don't worry, my technical sucks, far far worse than yours. Yet I still try to make up for it with this elusive "style" I keep hearing about.

Phew!

Thanks Josh, Kat, and Kael. Thought I was about to get roasted then....

"Basically we are post-technical and post-post modern"
Josh - 22/02/2005

lol

Jo.

Oooooooooooooooooooh Jo, can I join?

I am all about moving and the many uses of butterfly and weave, and ways to achieve variations by moving the body more than the poi.

Within these are also something that I miss, size variations, not just directions and placement.

Please let me in! I'll even bat my eyelashes and try to look purty!

Nonsense Antispin Style is Too Yank, Pointless Or Intrieging? N.A.S.T.Y P.O.I



Im totally in with the N.I.C.E, probably cos its been well over a year and a half since playing poi properly to be any way interested in the technicalities.... but i asure you i have plans.... this will all change when in italy and i have space time and company and people to teach again.

"pre-technical and post-post modern" works too.

Oh hang on - that doesn't make sense. But you know what I mean...

I think its all about balancing technical knowledge and artistic/dance creativity to express yourself best, whether newB or old timer.

Jo.

Pele, thanks for joining the gang. We're not just being lazy are we

Im down with that. But im old skool so...

oh wow, so suddenly I don't feel bad for not focusing only on technical spinning

thanks JD

it's nice to hear some refreshing ideas

ohh ohh! pick me?!?!

its like anything, a balance is best. hence i am making my own break-away group called New Ideas for Circular Exploration and Circles Remove Aesthetic Principles (N.I.C.E 'n' C.R.A.P) :P

dance is by no means a substitute for technicals because dance is basically for other people to enjoy, while technical is for your own benefit. sure, if you do a simple show that people really liked you might feel good, but i know you'd feel even better if you added a technical trick that you'd been working on and then pulled it off in the show.

cant everyone just keep the NICE CRAP going? and then it'll all go off!

Technical stuff is only worth learning for me if it can help my flow and movement - a fair amount of it allows you to move the poi in and out of spaces and positions you otherwise wouldn't be able to and thus gives you more freedom of expression.

I'm in.. for me it's much more about movement and freedom of expresion than technical wizardry... but I guess I feel like this coz the youngsters new moves are well beyond this ol' lady I just stand there job smacked..

so YEAH UP WITH THE CIRCLES... woot woot!!

hmm, you wouldn't happen to be producing a prop that is solid and therefore restricts one to spinning in circles would ya mr derry...?

peek - antispin *is* just circles.
imho meenik started the craze and he definitely can't be accused of being over-tech or non-flowy.
its easy anyway, just spin backwards and forwards at the same time, with the same arm

[those comments are tongue in cheek - i hope neither came off as cynical. just being careful cos i may sound grumpy today even though i'm not trying to be - work is crap, its teasingly sunny outside and i all i want is a bloody hug - but can i get one?! ]

josh - your 'renaissance' idea supports a theory that came to me a while back.
do you think that there are cycles related to twirling?
to me, it seems technical levels of poi seem to increase in bursts.
when that innovation begins to run dry, and the techniques you have learnt become second nature (like any other move in your repertoire), it gives rise to the incorporation of those moves (that often required lots of thought to learn) into your routines and freestyle spins.
you find ways to play with what you've learnt.

i.e. the cycle is:
we learn a new technique; we explore the technical limits of that technique as far as we understand it; we learn what we have discovered backwards, forwards and sideways to give us the largest scope for movement possible; we try and integrate it into our dance, into the whole; rinse and repeat.

remember when you first learnt some poi moves?
you first have to learn the moves, then you learn to link them up and get them to flow so you can dance with them (you develop your own style), then you move on to new areas and learn some moves that seem techy compared to what you know, then you go back to trying to learning to flow with what you have learnt.

my guess is that once you are happy with how you perform what you consider 'techy' moves right now (the main denominator of 'tech' being "i don't incorpoate this move smoothly into my dance yet"), you will go back to learning techniques again before you move back to getting the new technique to blend with your individual style.

this is no renaissance - its simply people learning to spin.


cole. x

Coleman:

"this is no renaissance - its simply people learning to spin."

Yes - that's it in a nutshell - so over stressing technicality can cause people not to learn to spin. And to be ignorant of the many ways to look at progression.

Reverse is true too... balance etc...

I really started this thread because I don't like the emergence of genres in poi or even in spinning. They are counter-productive because it is the same art and everybody (I think) enjoys seeing all types of spinner - but especially 'hybrids'.

Jo.

Great to see all you oldschoolers still around. Dantana!!!! *runs through computer monitor and smashes Dan with a massive hug* How r u mate?

Sticks up hand to join N.I.C.E.

All these muli-beat behind the back freaks scare me off and demotivate me 'cause I almost feel like I'll never be able to keep up....

Nice to remeber a time when someone complimented me on one of the best spins I ever had at a party (in *that* state). All it was was weaves and butterflies but was just in the groove and flowing with the go.

Viva la Renaissance!

Dantana!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well Jo, I can honestly say, lazy is not something I get called usually.

Maybe the techs are being lazy cause they don't move their bodies. Isn't that what the health dept. says? If you don't move your body then you are being lazy?

I love all spinning styles, at least to watch.
My mediocre spinning style does not allow for me to do anything but circles and variations off of them.

An excuse not to bother with learning those damn hyperloops?? I'm in!

J

Can I be N.I.C.E. too? I love the circles, the circles are what I'm in it for. I'm with the weave & butterfly contingent, though I'm ever-so-slightly obsessed with flowers at the mo. But still -- circles! circles inside circles...mmmmmm

Though tech & flow are not mutually exclusive. I've seen some wonderful & beautiful spins in which hyperloops and isolations are seamlessly part of it. (I've only read about atomics and trinity, but haven't seen video or anyone do these things in person.) Can't we shoot for the best of both?

I'll be frank here and say this discussion makes me nervous. I was happily going about my business, learning the moves that appealed to me, working on my flow, learning to express what it is I have to express through this medium, but now suddenly I feel pressure to keep abreast of the current stylistic fashions and the worst thing I can think of is to learn how to do stuff I'm not particularly interested in solely because everyone else is doing it and I wanna be cool too.

So N.I.C.E. sounds nice to me.

And...

Written by: coleman

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[those comments are tongue in cheek - i hope neither came off as cynical. just being careful cos i may sound grumpy today even though i'm not trying to be - work is crap, its teasingly sunny outside and i all i want is a bloody hug - but can i get one?! ]

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Flowers are circles... they're like a planned misplacement of circles that end up looking quite brilliant.

There are some spinners who just live in a completely different world than the others - maybe someday we'll all get along.

Jo, my friend, I'm doing ok man. It's good to see you around too.

Hi Pele nice to see you too.

Old School huh? we're the geriatric ward, huh?

:P

So, I spun fire last night and almost didn't even do a btb weave. Is that progress? maybe... like maybe there are more things to life than btb weaves (heretic?!) yea. so? What does this mean?

I still stand by my statement of +4 yeas ago... hot chick doing weave is cool! :P And much better than stationary techeon.

We create magic and use magic. We often do not realize this. We take it for granted. It is like nothing to us, because we understand how it works. It is our thing. It is where we get our cookies.

But move your perspective outside of yourself to the random person on the street. Now add exothermic chemical reactions (fire) and darkness for contrast.

Any technology sufficiently advanced will appear as magic to the uninitiated. Example? Some things I have seen Arashi do, I know I am not ignorant of poi-mechanics, but magic is indeed the word.

So if I, one of the initiated, see it as magic? Can you imagine what the lay person thinks? And you wonder why their eyes tend to glaze over...

whooooooo!!! count me in for some N.I.C.E. C.R.A.P. too....
but to be the devil's advocate for a minute: aren't hyperloops also "weave variations", just like 5, 7 beat or reverse weaves? isn't anything that doesn't require direction change a weave variation and aren't even direction changes weave variations and if so then wraps must be weave variations as well, and also.....

Nice words, Dan.

Parliament, I am going further than to say weaves and butterflies can be creative and fresh - I'm saying even same-time low turns haven't been touched....

EDIT - oh hang on - that was what you were saying wasn't it? Don't mind me...

Jo.

Um...I just spin poi.

I like the way you think cole, but I've still got some reservations about your key subtext (and correct me if I've got this wrong); There are no fashions in poi movement, there are no social groupings of poi movement - its all down to individual differences and rates of learning.

I dont see how your theory explains the massive differences in style we see both geographically and over time. I've only been in the game 5 years, but during that time I've travelled a fair bit. It seems to me that there is more at play here than just 'becoming comfortable with moves that are initially difficult'.

I may not have been clear, but by renaissance I mean a social change in the values behind the practice and performance.

I'll go out on a limb here. It seems to me that for the last couple of years it has become increasingly popular to try to pull off the most jedi moves to the detriment of flow and grace (and spirit - but thats a difficult one to quantify). Im advocating a change in values, rather than in the actual moves being performed.

A hug too late is still a hug?

Josh

Yayy! I wanna be NICE CRAP too...

Jo, glad to see you're back on HOP, since I missed your first incarnation...

I agree -- too much tech talk, let's talk style/flow/dance! Who's gonna start some threads?