Public Opinion of Circus Arts

Some background first:
As some of you are aware I work in a Circus School. We are part of the Conservatoire of Dance and Drama (CDD), which a group of small specialist universities in the UK (specialist as the teachers are also profesional performers therefore providing them with links to some of the top people in their area). The schools in the CDD include the famous acting school LAMDA, Central School of Ballet, Rambert, RADA etc...

So every day I get emails or telephone calls saying, "I'm a from charity/big event and we're holding a party/event/fundraiser, can we have some of your students here to perform, it would be an excellent opportunity for them..." or something similar always offering no money, no expenses. Today I even had one saying she was holding a party for her friend!!

Now our students a) can't work during the day as they are training, b) don't need 'the experiance' of working their arse off for no money. They get paid gigs, in the last holidays we had students performing in China, Portugal and Spain!

Now wondering if the other schools we are affiliated with get the same questions we phoned them up, and none did. But we're also part of the European Circus School network FEDEC, we asked some of them, and they had the same thing.

So people aren't willing to ask LAMDA 'can we have a student to come and act for free, it'd be an excellent opportunity for them', but are quite willing to ask Circus students?

Which leads me onto the Public's opinion of the Circus? Do they think we're some cheap hobby? Why do they feel they can get away without paying people in Circus? I mean the charities I can understand but we get music video producers who obviously have money, and people's private parties! Would they go up to Rambert and ask for a ballet dancer for free? No, they don't. So why Circus arts? What is making them feel like it's ok to do that to Circus?

Yarp - annoying as heck isn't it

Personally, I try never to refer to 'Toast as "circus" as in many minds it conjures up the wrong image, I try to say "performance arts" or even "dance".

Partly it comes down to reputation, RADA is a pretty famous, globally recognised school of dance - thus people are unlikely to approach them on the blag.

Circus, for whatever reasons, does have an image/stigma attached to it...
Same as poi does - it brings up images of hippies/students playing with toys, trying to blag their way into festivals.

I'm sure Cirque de Soleil don't get approached - again, their reputation precedes them. I would've thought having "conserveatoire" in front of your name would hint at this, but maybe it takes time for the message to filter though. I know we (Toast) have been getting fewer blag requests as time has gone on.

It's also not helped by the fact that there are several "circus performers" who are willing to perform for free.
Just as there are club dancers who'll get nightclub spots for a pittance - no better/worse than Pineapple Studio graduates, but without the weight behind them to demand (and stick to their guns about) a proper wage.

totally agree. we've been approached numerous times over the years to spin fire at this event or that. school gigs, uni gigs, church gigs.

i completely agree that circus isnt considered a serious art form, unless its done like cirque du soleil...... people are unappreciative nits.

I don't think it's wrong for charities to ask for free gigs...except that they don't ask for them from other schools of performance. Although I do think that they should pay for expenses.

I think that part of the reason is the problem that often comes up here and that's that too often, backyard spinners will spin for free, for all the reasons already stated in other threads.

Yup.
Makes me want to scream.
Though here, they do ask the professional improv company for the same.

I do think if it looks like fun, then it is regarded as not work, therefore not serious and not given serious concideration. Add "student" to that and the lack of concideration grows exponentially.

It doesn't help that there are many small circus "schools" and community circus projects who will perform for free. That standard was set a long time ago.

CDS has CDM which does get hit for "freebies" by major corps because they are "students". They've put out statements about it in the past (though that was many years ago).

But now the question turns to, how do you deal with it?
Do you educate them?
Do you simply lay out requirements?
Do you just say no thanks?

And the problem with charities is that you accept for one and they all flood in. It becomes a cherry picking of which to help and which to turn down, and that sucks as well.
How do you choose?
What's the criteria?

I think it may be because a lot of circus arts can also be busking arts. Hence we are seen as trying to 'break into' the market.

Sword swallowing acts are often with fire. As is juggling.

At first, our troupe did do some gigs that were lower paid or uni student things to get our name out there.

And now we have a really good relationship with two youth run charities in Perth (may/may not also help that I'm best friends with the co-ordinators of two of them.. :P ). And as these charities grow, so do their event budgets, and so does our pay.
And when our expenses are covered, sometimes it is a really good chance to reach out to a different audience. Or to challenge ourselves with different stages and venues.

A recent 20 minute performance was a charity gig, but it was at Perth Concert Hall, like, the place with a huge organ built into the wall, where the symphony orchestra plays. How could you pass up the chance to perform somewhere there are tiers! And having the space and audience, we really had to challenge ourselves with the music, making new costumes, using all the toys, some very VERY new.

I think because we're a troupe and basically you get our number through a website which is clearly there for business, we wouldn't get the same interest as a circus school. But we still do get a lot of charities asking. And if they agree to cover our expenses, it's then our performers choice of doing an unpaid gig.

Most of the time I'd agree. Free the whales, free tibet, feed the poor, educate the young, I'm all for it

I think there is another issue about people who do fire arts who don't ask 'enough' money which devalues the whole community. I doubt this is the place for that discussion, but at times, it is "you get what you paid for".
If someone wants someone to do it for free, often they won't have the experience/talent/extra props etc.
While if they try to approach someone higher and agree to pay partial fees, at least they know it's someone who does it professionally.

If someone asked me now to perform free "for the experience" I think I'd laugh in their face.

"And the problem with charities is that you accept for one and they all flood in. It becomes a cherry picking of which to help and which to turn down, and that sucks as well.
How do you choose?
What's the criteria?"
Well, if they cover expences, then it's if you want to support the cause, have time and it won't hinder another paid gig you have.

On this student note.. I really wish there were people who came up to me saying "Oh, you're a student doctor? Well, is it possible for you to test and diagnose and operate on me for free?"
I'd be all for it!!!

Lol... as it happens, I just got a phonecall there now from yet another person asking us to do a gig 'for a charity'.

When you say how much it will cost they say 'but it's a charity!' and then act offended, as though you have personally insulted their charity of choice, and also are obviously a cold-hearted biatch who never does anything for anybody else... rarrgh.



I even told one charity that if they paid me properly, I'd make my own donation to that charity... needless to say, that booking didn't go ahead.

Anyways... yes, circus is massively undervalued, but then circus performers and street artists have been considered the lowest of the low since time began (street performers were traditionally seen as beggars, looking for money by doing tricks).

Talent shows don't help... there's a great post on Emerald Circus about this, taken from Gatto's website... (unfortunately, that website is barred from my work?)

I think shows like Cirque and Lucient Dossier are doing good work in changing public opinion, but I think the best way we can help is if you're doing gigs, to ALWAYS do it professionally, not spraying fuel around, look like you know what you're doing, and don't be pissed or stoned when talking to clients or working...

Behave professionally, and eventually, people will treat us professionally...

A-freakin-men Clare.

Though I have to admit this made me chuckle

"look like you know what you're doing"

even when you have no clue, yeah?

Lol... well, it is performance art

This might sound harsh, but seriously, I think you might just need to get some bigger perspective, and get over it. It being that you think, by someone asking for a performer, for free, that that indicates a lack of respect, whatever, whatever. Too many assumptions there.

There is nothing wrong with people asking. Maybe you just need to work on your ability to comfortably say no, when you want or need to say no?

It really does not matter what peoples hopes or expectations or even opinions on the circus arts and performers are when they ask. You still get to look at each request fresh, open minded, and say either yes, or no. If you choose to use that opportunity to educate them on the realities of the performing arts,-- your realities keep in mind- not all performers are the same,-- fine. Do that because you want to do that.

I say this for two reasons. One, is personal philosophy, in that I always, always, beleive that you need to ask, not assume. So I might ask, even knowing something is unlikely, because you just never know, maybe there is a performer out there who just lost their lover to cancer, and would be happy to perform for free at a charity event to raise money for a cure, a meaningful performance in their memory. Maybe, someone once gave them something for free- maybe even a whole workshop or event, and they would like to offer something they can do, for free...

Their choice, no expectation. I beleive everything is possible. But if you dont ask, you will never know!I really really think it is important for people to ask for what they want, and always respect people when they do, even when I , or they, say an outright unequivicable NO!


The other reason is more practical and work related. I work with volunteer circus project. So all the performers donate their time and creativity. We could not do what we do without their generousity. And yes, I had to ask them to do that. And yes, some people I asked said no.

But, those that said yes( thanks guys) did have an amazing expereince, a chance that they would not have received through typical paid project. They got to feel the reward of their art without association to pay, to really and directly contribute personally to something amazing.they got expereince working under extremely challenging conditins, they got a sense of meaning and community.... ah, I could go on, but you get what I mean...

Some of us dont have enough money to donate or contribute to this or that deserving cause. True. Yet, some things that are very important, dont actually want your money for this , or that. What they need is your inspiration, your involvement, your vision, creativity, participation and commitment. Even if just for a night.

And there are times when the pay for that,though huge, massive, life changing-- does not involve money.

But seriously, for the other stuff, the stuff you just dont want to do, whatever your reasons, just say no. Come on, it is seconds or minutes from your day. Practice: Thanks for thinking of me, and our association of performers. However, we have a policy where we only work for paid events. So I am sorry, but we are not avaiable to offer you our professional services. Good bye."

Dont make it more than that, it idoes not need to be!

When asked what I do, I tell people I'm a juggler.

normally, people's first comment is 'Oh, you're a clown'.

On mainland Europe, the reply was a little different: 'Oh, you're an Artiste.

So a lot of this can depend on where you are in the world. And of course people are always gonna try and get something for free. I don't think there's anyone on this site who hasn't tried some way or other of saving money as they do something, or getting something for free. Don't ask, Don't get, simple as that.

I can see how it is annoying, though. We just can't really do anything about it that we aren't doing already.

Andrea, because of your own experience of needing volunteer workers for a very worthy cause, of course you're going to feel that charities should ask.

I think Ed's point is very relevant... it depends where in the world you are.

I get many, many charities assuming (and it is assumption in their voice), that you will work for free, or at the most, £50.

Of course there is an element of re-education needed, and maybe they just 'don't know any better'... but as with Pink's original question - why do people seem to automatically assume that performers should work for little or no pay?

I think this is a completely worthy question, not in relation to perspective, or getting over it, but why our art is seen as so much less credible than any others.

I can choose to do a cancer charity event, but I will (and have) approach them and offer my services. It's a very different thing for every charity in the book to expect performers to work for free... it is an impossible, and demeaning, way to exist.

(And yes, I know there are many other people living much more difficult lives... but that isn't at discussion here, and the unfairness of life is a much bigger topic, which I'm sure has been delved into before.)

As for charities
There are charity events where people aren't paid for their performance. That way all the money goes to the charity. That's the idea.
People donate time talent money-whatever. At the end, the organizer says that all this was donated-event location, performance, silent auction items, volunteers time, and all the money donated goes straight to the cause-no administrative fees

A lot of the charity stuff I did wouldn't have happened if we had to pay for performance, location, items etc.

Argh.

This is yet another one of these HoP questions that have no real answer and that I shouldn't have got involved with in the first place.

Righto... am off into quietness again

The cambridge community circus quite often gets asked to do little glow gigs/workshops at fairs/etc.

However, as we're a charity in our own right, we normally ask for a £100 donation

If we're asked to do a charity gig, I think we usually ask for expenses paid: That means they'd usually get it mostly for free in Cambridge itself.

If I was supporting myself through performing, then I'd ask for at least expenses paid for a charity gig, as I'd be unlikely to be able to afford it otherwise. Alternatively I'd try to suggest someone else who might be willing to do it.

Nice one...

bah... I'm so easily persuaded... all it takes is a digitised hug.

Bah!

What I was trying to say is that asking for a performance for free is *not*!!!! inidicative of lack of respect for the artist, or for their skill set. I have also asked for free accounting services, kitchen services, web site design...With full appreciation and respect for their professional services. It is not specific to circus arts.

In no way does it mean that I dont think they do not deserve to place monetary value and have financial renummeration for their skill. We all need some money to live( well mostly).


If the situation is such that there is money for an event , or people are profiting, then of course the performers and all others involved should get their share at market value.

Yes, sometimes performers do call and offer their services for free. But many times they do not know what opportunities are out there, unless someone calls them, asks, and puts out the word about what is needed.

*And a big hug to you Miss Clare, you know I love ya!*

I've been in a situation where I've done a charity glow-show, and have been approached by one of the guests afterwards, requesting a paid fire-gig for his own event. The glow-show was only 15 minutes, at no expense to myself (a milliamps-hours of battery life?). So it was profitable for me to do this charity gig.

So charity shows have their own pull in terms of publicity. You usually get companies advertising/donating at charity-events to raise their profile. I did the same, and it payed off.

I think the best approach is to begin by really and truly knowing what you are worth. When you get a request, give them a quote of how much it would cost in normal circumstances based on your current fee structure. Explain that you may choose to waive some or all of that fee, dependent on the opportunity. Ask them to quantify exactly what publicity/exposure/experience you will be getting from it (eg. a logo on the program, or a chance to meet the crown heads of europe).

You can then decide whether you want to waive all, some or none of the fee.

This has the advantage of raising people's awareness of the normal business costs, whilst leaving the door open to working for some truly worthy causes.

I know Andrea Looking forward to seeing you at Play

And Rozi... well put... letting them know the appropriate costs for the 6-person fire show plus full band that they imagined gives them a much better idea...

And likewise on the publicity... fire photos will always get into the local papers...

The annoying part is the expectation of so many that performance skills are not worth the same as say, a desk job.

Anyhoo... goodnight

xx

My first impression on hearing "circus school" is of a whole bunch of clown riding around a classroom on their little bikes, and having been on this board for longer than I care to remember I reallt should know better, so what are the general public going to think.

I think the problem is the word "circus"; it conjurs up a load of images that are at odds with what you fellas are trying to achieve

similarly people rip off students and student societies, they think anything they offer should clearly be done for free as 'work experience' or something, and is the perfect solution instead of hiring professionals.

When Beth was running the circus thing at Brookes M&S asked for performers to cover 2 days! I don't know exactly what they offered the society, but all we got were a couple of chocolates, which were the same that they were handing out to customers anyway, and a free week lemon drink from the machine in the staff area. woo.

Just thinking, with the charities and the like, could the reason they don't contact other areas for performance such as the ballet be because it's seen as too highbrow? I was asked to perform for expenses only at a Jewish community group and having ballet there wouldn't have been appropriate for it.

Yeah we get the same thing and we perform "professionally" like for a living. I'm happy to do the odd free show here and there for an cause that I support but only if I offer or the person organising is a good friend but i will usually not do free performances if I get phoned up and requested. I figure i don't have a whole lot of money to give to the causes i support but i have other things that i can give.

I don't have a big problem with charity asking but the thing that really annoys me is when people who are working for corporate events have the gal to request you to perform for free but "Oh yeah we can't pay you or any thing"

This happened to me the other day and it made me quite angry. I was asked to perform at a local psi trance underground dance event thing where they have Dj's from all over the world and are probably paying them a good penny or two. They said this exactly "oh we can't pay you and you can have a ticket because it against our policy to give free tickets."

I'm not really a big psi trance fan and I wouldn’t have any one to go with and free ticket wouldn't be enough to get me there any way, but the fact that they phone me up and requested me to perform and then expected me to pay to get in to the event.

The "its a great opportunity" thing is a big problem here in Canberra because in pretty much all the performing arts circles the number of people that actually do it for a living is actually really small.

As far as opinions of circus vs other performing arts i think you might be underestimating how often other performers get asked to do free shows or "for the oppertunity". My boyfriend is in a band and they get asked all the time and it really drives them nuts beacuse people get really antsy when they say no but if they did all the shows they have been asked to do for free they would have no time to do there own gigs. Also i have a good friend that is a dance teacher and she always gets people ringing up and asking for free dancers.

I think the reason that event organisers always try and skimp on how much they pay performers is because a performance is not an physical object it is there for the duration of the event then it is gone and "they think" it if you are a developed performer it may seem like doing an event doesn’t cost you any thing because you already have the skills/props/equipment what they for get to realise is how much work goes in to the show that you are giving them.

I think things are never going to be perfect as far as this goes but if every performer educates people trying to book them about why paid performances is worth while then things will get better.

These are the things that i try to teach bookers and companies whey they are looking for acts:
- Most paid performers pay for their own insurance so no liability to the event
- A paid performer is more likely to turn up on time and they are probably going to be more likely to tailor their act/s to suit your even/time line if you need it.
- A paid performer has a vested interest in performing well and working hard for your event.
- A performer who is paid can usually afford to put a lot of time into developing there act and keeping it new and fresh
- A paid performer is more likely to act professionally when they are at and event