Ok, now I'm scared

Ok, as a Jew living in the U.S., I find this really frightening. It's not that there's a direct threat to me as a Jew, per se, but...

OK, there are certain types of psychoses where a patient will claim to be recieving special messages from G-d. In fact, this particular delusion is so common that we routinely ask patients about it when we admit them to the hospital. ("Do you feel like there are special messages being sent to you on the radio or TV? Have you been recieving special messages from G-d or any other supernatural beings?")

Also, and this is important, the religious beliefs and delusions have to be out of sync with the practices and beliefs of the religion. In this case, you will notice that Bush's own church has expressed reservations about his claims. Often, these delusions may present during recovery from substance abuse (particular alcoholism). Some experts think this may be an effect of subtle brain damage.

Well, guess what...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2921345.stm

[ 07. April 2003, 07:55: Message edited by: Lightning... ]

God, I despise religion.

I really hope he doesn't get reelected.

"Axis of evil"

That blokes a nutter

As a prodominent Christian society, a speeker for that society should use the faith of the majority to his or her advantage.

Hitler used the Germans grudge against Jewish business to help feed his Nazi party.

(If you recall after WWI sactions were put on German businesses but when a large number of Jews immigrated to Germany and set up shop, their businesses were not effected by these sanctions and flurished.)

It is simple politics, tell the people what they want to hear.


When you think about it, both sides are saying the same thing, Ji-had!!! Both sides are bringing the podominent religion into a war that should (note: should) have nothing to do with it.


Ever hear the phrase, "There is no such thing as an Athiest in a fox hole" ?

This is just politics.

The thing isnt about what the President is saying, it is about what you believe.

Saddam looks like a young Chef Boyardee in that picture..

Ray, the United States is not a Christian nation. This is affirmed not only in our Constitution by inference, but explicitly in a 1798 treaty with Tripoli.

Furthermore, the World is not a Christian World. Islam and Hinduism are the two largest world religions. Christianity is number three.

Bush is having psychiatric symptoms that he is being quite vocal about in his office. This is what concerns me. Because even his own church has expressed concern. They can't come out and say "Look, we disagree with this and we are worried about the President" because it's the President and you don't do that, but that's the gist.

Mikey, don't take this the wrong way, but be careful about brandishing the mental illness labels when it comes to someone whose case notes you don't have access to. I don't agree with what he is doing, and sometimes I will speculate that maybe the man is nuts, but honestly, we don't know.

The media distorts everything, including the self-justifications of a man in the wrong.

There is also the cultural factor, these are perfectly acceptable statements for a man of a certain background and certain strongly held beliefs. They do not indicate mental illness, unless you fancy arguing that any form of faith (a belief in something you cannot demonstrate to be true) is mental illness.

The even more scary concept is that this bloke is in his right mind, and knows exactly what he is doing.

Okay, Mike all yours. You win.
Heaven forbid that someone say something that you disagree with.

But before you celbrate your great victory check out http://www.wamware.com/world-religions/map.htm . For some reason they say that the prodominent religion for America is Chritianity or some variation of it, so I guess they are wrong too??

I never said anything about the world, and I never came out and said that American national religion wasChristianity. I just said that if the majority of the people you speek for are of relgion x then a political stratigy would be to play on that religion.

So where all this hate from you came from I dont know but I have given my reply, check the site if you dont believe me.

I mean I may be a Marine but I can do research too. I can look shit up, I can talk smart. I dont just pull shit out of my ass, well I dont do it all the time.

[ 07. April 2003, 19:44: Message edited by: Raymund P. ]

You hit that one square on the head Ray,

Ray? Where did you get hate out of it?

Ray there is a pretty big disctintion between america being a christian country and america being predominatly christian. Let me clarify.

The vatican is a christian country. It is a theological government.

America is a democratic government which was founded on ideals of religious freedome and separation of church from state (amongst other ideals)

Sorry but it is in no way right to play this whole thing off as holy crusades because that is not what it is about. It is infact (supposedly) about preventing terrorism and guess what terrorists do not take kindly to predominatly christian countries spouting nonsense about holy crusades (remember the holy crusades in the middle ages where muslims were raped and murdered by christians?)

If you think whatever works is 'right' that is pretty disturbing.

NO no no... I never said the government was Christian, I said was talking of the populous.

Secondly, I wasnt condoning what Mr. Bush is saying, I am just saying the from a political point of view it is a good tactic.


Mike, I got hate from what seemed to be the tone of what you said. You spoke of what went way beyond what I was talking about. Nobody said anything about the world. It was almost as if you were saying, "Ray, your stupid and dont know what the hell your talking about." I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but that is what it seemed to me.

Umm... I did say that, and I did mean that. America is a prodominent Christian society, did you not look at my supporting link? I dont know what point you were trying to make, please extend your though farther so that I can understand what you meant.

quote:

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The vatican is a christian country. It is a theological government.

---

I did not think the Vatican was a country. Isnt the Vatican in Rome? A country that resides within the boarders of another country? If you would please explain this, cause I honestly do not get it. I am not joking either, I really dont see why you say it is a country.

quote:

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If you think whatever works is 'right' that is pretty disturbing.

---

I never said that it was right, I never said that it works, but from a political view point, do what works. If you have to kiss 100 babies to get eleceted then do it. Weather its right or not isn't for me to decide.

This particular article doesn't suprise me. What suprises me is that this is news to people.

Back in the 80's when King George the 1st was still vice president Ronald Regan openly admitted to believing that he was a member of the "last generation" (along with many members of his cabinet). This is one of the scariest things I can think of for a world leader to say as it strongly implies that they believe that they are obligated to bring about Armageddon. James and Susan Baker have talked publicly about this, and over the past few years I have heard many people in King George the 2nd's cabinet talking about instiuting "faith based initiatives", meaning things like putting provoerbial or litteral gun to the head of all things "Un-Christian" in one way or another.

Since the names and faces around the Bush regime have changed little since 1980 this tells me that this is not a new issue.

Got to keep all those Contra-gate criminals gainfully employed.....

From what I can tell, Ray is right. It's just a political method that has worked in the past and is working right now. There are lots of christians in America, and if bush can gain support by using this target audience then he will.

That doesn't mean it's right or that it's good or that it's bad or that it's wrong. Moral or immoral, it just is.

Sure, personally it makes me feel sick. It might make some want to send Bush flowers - I don't know!

But guys, don't argue just for the sake of it. If you re-read Ray's posts you'll see that he's making all the points that you are too.

Ray I understand what you are trying to say after you clarified. My point is you should learn to represent what you mean to say by what you actually say so there is no confussion.

Fluffy I can't think of any president who came right out and used language like bush has. Yes many war time presidents make refrences to christianity but they don't say "we are gods people they are not" Bush is makeing this look like a holy war. It is absolutly the worst way he could possibly handle it. I think he might actually be deliberatly trying to provoke muslim aggression so he can use it as justification for invasions of other muslim countries and as an excuse to abuse even more civil liberties of american people.

I think it's pretty clear that the US government used terror tactics to gain support for the war. Doesn't it seem strange how there is a code orange terrorism level every week but it always fizzles out to be nothing with no substantiating evidence. Have you seen the nonsense they are spewing out about how to protect yourself from terrorist strikes? It is engineered not to calm people and prepare them for dangerous situations but to invoke panic.

Want to hear something disturbing? The family of osama bin laden are american citizens and they own big businesses here. This in it's self isn't disturbing. I mean we were told they disowned osama bin laden right? A couple of years ago when bin laden was in the hospital because of troubles with his kidneys (this is before september 11th but after the first attempt to destroy the WTC and after the bombing of the US cole) Osama bin ladens family members came in to visit him. They said prayers for him and treated him like a beloved family member. How does this match in with the story of them disowning him ever since he turned into a islamist militant? It doesn't. How do we know that this visit transpired? Because CIA operatives were there and they let him go. It's in a CIA report.

The government flew bin ladens family out of the country to avoid backlash from september 11th. But do you know what's really interesting? They flew them out BEFORE the strikes. Remember how it took them awhile to even figure out who was responsible?

I watched an episode of homicide life on the streets where they had two people on trial for murder but the evidence was really thin (they didn't have a body or a murder weapon) and it was certain the defendants were going to win. To top things off in the defense attorneys closing arguement he said "in 1 minute the supposed victim of this murder will walk through those courtroom doors" and everyone in the courtroom including the jury gasped and turned around to look. After no one came threw the DA said "I lied he isn't comeing through those doors but you all believed he would, that is reasonable doubt". When the jury came up with the verdict they found both defendants guilty. The prosecuter asked them how they could possibly find a guilty verdict based on the evidence and they said when everyone looked to see the victim walk through the courtroom doors the defendants didn't turn an eye or flinch".

When bush was informed of the attacks on the world trade center while he was reading to third graders at a school he responded perfectly calmly like he was expecting it.

yea guys, you like totaly mis-interperted ray's first post. If you will notice, he immediatly goes on to mention the nazi uasage of similar tactics....which I am sure ray doesn't condone.

not saying bush is using nazi tactics, because anybody who seriousely belives in that bush=nazi crap obviousely has no grasp of the actual facts of history . Take a few college level history classes befor you think about saying stuff like that.

no hard feelings?

good post Astar, you are very observant. but belive me, you are only scratching the surface.

ack, hate politics...Vatican is considered it's own country I believe tho..

Yes it is. It even has it's own military and secret police.

Wow, you learn something new every day. Thats cool about the Vatican.


I dont think Reagen was out to bring the end of the world, I would be willing to bet that he just thought that the second comming would happen in his lifetime. Thats cool, he can think that no matter what his position in life is. It has no bearing on his mental health. It is called religion. Yes even the President can have faith in his religion.

Astar, I am sorry that you cant always understand me, but I dont write to your level. I write at mine. If I understand it then I can explain it to those who dont. It really doesnt bother me to do so. If you dont understand what I mean, ask me and I will be more than happy to tell you what I mean.


Want to hear something interesting?? The Thai Royal Family are Americans!! They always will be!! Thailand is run by a bunch of Americans!!

OSB's family are American citizens who own a business, who tought their sons very well. OSB's business mind is increadible, but he lost a few screws down the road, it happens. Then he did some tragic things in the name of his religion. He made bad choices, the world of business was lain down at his feet and he stepped over it. A mistake in my mind.

What date did they disown their son?? Is it relevent? Are you angry at his parents for loving their son even though they are angry with him?


You know something, what could Bush do to stop the tragidy of 9/11? Nothing, he would have spent atleast 4 hours in the Air. By then the damage would have been done and there would be nothing he could do any way.

Another thing, how do you stop panic? By acting normal.

Did you see ohh damn.... The Movie with Ben Aflack when he played as Jack Ryan. Grrr...

Anyhow in that movie a nuke was set at the football stadium that the president was at. When they found out the Secret Service pulled him out and caused a slew of panic in the stadium.

So... what would be the reaction when the President got up and ran to his plane?? Panic.


Astar, your good with conspiricy theorys. I must admit that.

No I am angry that we were lied to about his family disowning osama bin laden. It wouldn't really matter to me either way I just don't like all the lies going on there.

As far as the presidents reaction my point is that he react coldly when he was just told about the plane hitting the tower. Not the way I would expect a civilian to react to something like that. I honestly don't believe anyone would react that way unless they already knew what they were being told.

I admit it's just a conspiracy theory and I generally don't like conspiracy theories but this one seems to hold more ground then the typical ones.

Maybe it's not a question of what he could do to stop september 11th when he knew it was going to happen. Maybe it's question of why he would want it to happen. It certainly made the war agaisnt iraq (and and probably eventually saudi arabia and who knows what other muslim countries) possible. I don't think bush could ever get enough support for an invasion of iraq without september 11th.

Or maybe it's just a bunch of events that fell into place indeliberatly. You know occams razor and everything.

the last report I read indicated that the USA forced OBL's family to disown him, because osama wanted to fight saddam and liberate the kuwaities (gulf war #1) The USA wanted to do it themselves, but OSAMA said it was an arab thing and the west shouldn't interfer. He made such a big stink that the USA forced his family to disown him. This might have been just made up, but there was a reference listed.

Originaly posted by DiaTenchi

"God, I despise religion.

I really hope he doesn't get reelected."

There is a difference between religion and faith.

Religion is going to church every sunday, wether or not you actually belive it in your heart (or show it in your actions), it is often mearly a social even, a way to prove to the community how "respectible" you are, in other words...an act.

Faith has nothing to do with going to church. It is about being right with GOD in your heart.


And would you rather the GGG (Gun Grabing Gore) got elected?

talk about stuck between a bad choice and a worse choice... at least bush doesn't openly try to take away our guns.

Is why I voted for him!

Dio

Gun control=hitting your target!