MCP's academy of how to move good and do other things good too.

Meg's Academy of How to Move Good and Do Other Things Good Too.

So back in the day I asked Drew what 'style' was. In our conversation, it came to be negatively defined. It wasn't a list of tricks that you did that others didn't do. That wasn't style. It wasn't the sequencing of the tricks or the transitions, it wasn't what movement you did 'underneath' the spinning. Well that doesn't leave much I thought. I couldn't figure out what was left remaining to 'be' style. If two people were doing the exact same thing, spinning and movement wise, surely they would have the same 'style'? Well nope.

Style isn't what your doing, it's how your doing it. Even deeper than that, it's who you are. You can't get away from it, unless of course, you study dance for ten years.

What is style then? For me at least, it's like that old jazz anecdote... how can a jazz player sound constantly lazy but never get out of time with the song? Well they consistently play a fraction after when they are supposed to, but always the same fraction of time, still keeping pace with the song.

How does this apply to spinning? Well in my view, part of the beauty of spinning, and part of some spinners good style is to be equally 'slow/lazy' so they consistently move just a fraction slower than they should.

Yes they're always in control, with good footwork and extremely smooth spinning. But there's something else in their movement that makes it their own. Some of this is a definition of grace, some of it is going towards style I guess... It's tough to delineate the two for me. I find it's only the graceful spinners that I want to watch...

Oh tangent time...


Yeah is these videos it's hard to distinguish the beauty in the movement alone, cos it's video and not real life... Some of them I think have better movement than others... but it's very hard to tell on video.


Thomas: Cares a lot about poi and has very clean considered body movement. Especially in the Levistick video, cos they do nice editing.
http://www.eldsjal.org/movies/salza/levistick.mov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrN7RUjpjPs

Shion: Shion has an amazingly deep squat that he is constantly using. He also controls his upper body a lot leading to his distinctive style of contact staff. More apparent in the second video. But the first shows his passion for staff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSkwkz5bNN4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPtPgEJi4Bk

Alex: A background in all martial arts and theatre has left this guy with awesome movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpkjGmpvLng

Malaman: Smooth, great footwork, great control, very french.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQDF8s2TECU

Banyan: Banyan's style is heavily influenced by his props and how he holds them. I think he keeps a tight grip on his props and this forces him to use his body more in his movements, rather than just his arms and wrists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZv0lzfc3Uo

Club guy: Club guy here is awesome. His movement isn't so readily apparent as good, but the way he makes his clubs move is absolutely beautiful. He also has some really well thought out transitions and tricks in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRbeKGxliHM

Nimi: Nimi, Nimi, Nimi. I love watching Nimi, It's hard to analyse because I'm constantly being distracted by the beauty of the movements he's doing and the difficulty of the tricks he does. He really uses his other arm to frame the ball and it's really magical... I love it. He seems to have more grace in any one joint than I have in my entire body.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72L8tWViVls

Adrian Mondot: The possible king of the beautiful movement jugglers. He's controlled, graceful, he moves around and does tricks which compliment his movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZTYRTaX0_0

c2laballe: This guy has good movement too. It's hard to tell in these videos of juggling, but if you saw him in real life you'd know. He's really passionate about adding movement to his juggling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSt4Bn5hzTo

Emiliano Another dancer / juggler. He does some amazing ground work in this video and other beautiful shenanigans. Much better in person also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt1SGceLm2Q

Linda: Dance + Contact Staff, some beautiful stuff, shame about the skirt, can't see the footwork.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7lHjo_cOvU



Yeah I can't get over this guy... This guy makes me crazy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5QtCMozYX8

windstyle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFmR3xjlWOo

Bishop is the MAN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61M84h09e4

This guy just has really really good movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwPGiRryI30


Some really nice movement in this too, occasionally.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6oek7_contact-juggling-convention-saint-a_creation

That guys's movement is amazing, but wtf with the dumbarse falling off trackie daks?!?! Faux prison stylin meets mental health issue?

i want to know what his body is doing underneath the trackies

someone wise once told me that a long skirt is the best way to disguise poor footwork..

Also a big inspiration to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6PCiwKrtE8


It's funny that now since David Elswhere getting kind of big and putting more focus on liquid and such, he's not as impressive. Now that people like Bishop here are doin this, they're polishing the style that he seemed to have a massive influence on.

I like seeing stylish ropedart, I want more people to use it as more than a fire martial arts exercise

Oooh, be careful on the whole Bishop/Elsewhere likenings... Obsessive Popper here, and I might just get pedantic on yo' ass!

Elsewhere and Bishop have completely different styles. Bishop is Windstyle. A style of waving that gives your body an effect similar to a flag blowing in the breeze. Elsewhere's style is very much animation and contours. Animation = Making yourself look like a cartoon. like you're not real. Contours = liquid paths that trace the body, and often effect the way in which it moves. But yeah, that's just highlighting what Meg says about different styles. same principles in both, but they look different. you even noticed a difference when you were able to form an opinion of which looks best to you. To the trained eye, they're completely different. to the untrained eye, one just looks better than the other./ramble

Elsewhere is a genius. you just haven't seen any videos of what he's doing recently. Also his performances are very... typical of a performer: find a routine that works, and milk it. Fair play. it's made him a lot of money, and he's got some super hard stuff down to an effortless level.

You have a very good selection of movement inspirational videos there, meg. I approve. Mind if I add some more as and when I come across them?

Lots of male movers there Meg - not got many videos of girls?!

Bishop is awesome, and a lovely guy too.

You guys should have come to Ronan's Clon convention

x

It's coo' cook. I'm familiar with the differences. I suppose my point was that when more abstract dancing got popular (through the likes of elsewhere) it opened up the doors for other abstract styles to get some nice squishy attention.

When I was doing more liquiding and raving Elsewhere was my biggest influence. Now I don't focus on that stuff so much anymore. I'm working towards more calm dancing like belly dancing. And I dunno, after seeing a lot of these videos it stops being something that impresses me as much.

But anyway

Meg here always makes me wanna pick up contact staff, I guess I just need to decide I Wanna buy a staff. Although I'd have little room to practice and it's winter so outdoor stuff blows...probably another reason to get that ymca membership...
I like any prop that makes me want to move differently when I use it.

Ed: Yeah, course you can. I tried to get like the ones who are most clear and obvious that they have good movement. Not just like dance or skillz, but trying to get the people that you'd notice walking on the other side of the street because they just plainly move well. The kind of person that makes you watch even if they're just spreading butter on toast. But it's very hard to discern that kind of quality from a video.

Clure: Yeah most girls don't have to overcome so much to move well. No stigma to them dancing. usually too they don't have to try so hard to get people to watch them. As durbs will no doubt testify, there are other good reasons to watch them. That might be why it's so hard to tell if they move well...

Also they are much less likely to have solo videos... i would love to see a new solo video from Maelle, Mariki, Camille, Jeanine, FluffyNapalmRos, Pistache... (Actually, I could probably include her)

Yeah, would have adored the clon convention, no doubt. but quite happily, I am in australia. AUSTRALIA!

MRC: Nah, liquid never ceases to amaze me. the time they put in to get it to that level... it's impressive. I just wanna move well, I don't think I'm going to put in the tim for a really clean illusional dance style...

I want to join acadamy with question:


It would be complete mind game.

I wanna know.

Please!

--------------------------------

Like feeling of being in the right time?

saving energy,

:R

Ah, but Meg, it's probably down to that kind of attitude that there isn't more solo female videos.

The 'there are other good reasons to watch them. That might be why it's so hard to tell if they move well...' attitude.

Which is a bit demeaning, I think.

I think part of my problem is that I don't see the illusion anymore and I've seen those particular videos so much.

I'd like to look casual. I think that's my primary goal is to just look like what I'm doing is a walk in the park. I want complex looking stuff lookin' like cake.

All smooth and delicious, fully and moist.

And I agree on the lady-dancers. I think the focus with female dancing has been sex. Also part of it seems to be that boys are discouraged from doing ballet or classical dance while girls are more encouraged towards it. Boys pick up on street styles, and I guess a decent separation begins there.

Solving the worlds problems one HoP thread at a time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO5PItDt8Ss

Two girls dancing here. I don't think they're as polished as the two seasoned pros they're against but they are still very good.

Clure: Well to be fair, if people are already giving you attention, you don't generally try even harder to get it. Like you're keys are always in the last place you look, cos you don't look any more places after you've found them.

Seems like it needs the time put in to movement...

I was having a think about this during the commute to work this morning; particularly on the sub-topic of comparisons with music(ians).

a large part of what distinguishes one musician from another is less to do with the notes they select (there really are only a finite number of combinations, albeit a rather large number), and more to do with:

• rhythm - this is a very large part of a musician's "style"; it also helps record stores "categorise" them
• timing - as meg has already alluded to; slightly behind the beat; slightly ahead of the beat; lazy triplets; poly-rhythms etc
• space - this is the one I was really leading up to; a truly gifted musician knows when to play and when to shut the hell up. create space; play with how and when to pause; you don't have to spin at a million miles per hour the whole time; you don't have to spin slowly the whole time; it's all about ebb and flow, creating a wave for the audience to ride upon.

Yeah, I would catagorise* those as mostly to do with good 'flow' or good spinning, but not with good movement... You could apply some of them to movement as well I guess. Rhythm in movement and stillness as well...

Hmmmmmmm

Brian Eno said that rhythm was more about what you leave out than what you put in, and cited the classic reggae skank as an example.

TESTIFY!!

But on a more serious note, there are several female spinners, some even incredibly hot ones, who don't move well - and their hotness and lady-bumps don't make up for this.
The whole issue of men vs. women when it comes to dance is perhaps best left to a seperate thread, but I definitely agree that it's rarer for a guy to dance or even experiment with movement. Probably a throw-back to the school discos with the girls dancing and the guys standing around tapping their feet occasionally. Heck I'm still very guilty of this, as the several comments about my COL entry will prove ("You never spin like that") - I do, just not in public.


So would I (and Def, PooKa, Laura etc.). Is it interesting to note that apart from Ros and maybe Mariki (don't know her) - they're all French (French-ish in Jea9's case)?
Camille is awesome and is perhaps the most character-full when performing, certainly bringing a bigger aspect of acting/facial expressions to her performances. She is also less dancey, and more posture/pose based perhaps in her movements - and oozes style like it's a nasty weeping disease. But in a good way.

"Style" is a tricky one - many of the most stylish spinners also tend to have a certain style with other things they do, like how some people just walk/stand well, whilst others can make you nervous watching them and prepare to catch them if they fall over their feet. Whether this is nature/nurture isn't really an issue, but it'd be interesting to tally-up the naturally stylish and see what else they do.
Does Elsewhere stagger around like a drunk when he's not dancing? Did he play a lot of sport when he was young?
Is it purely a physical thing - as in good muscle structure and tone, or is there a mental aspect of knowing, whether concisous or sub-conciously, what looks good?

Ooo lunch time

Jea9 is Swiss German, Marijke is Belgian... but yes, both are francophones. they also went to circus school together, which explains their great knowledge of performing/making routines.

Ok, a movement video. Popping routine by U-Min.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvBpE0eiOr8

Now, I'm not just highlighting the awesome popping and locking skillz in this video, because there are lots. I want you to look for things such as misdirection... ie, your attention is drawn to a certain place whilst something preparatory happens somewhere else, so you get all the magic, and none of the build up.

A lot of things happen that aren't expected, but they fit perfectly into the routine. a lot of hard work went into this one.

Also one of the few popping routines I have seen that builds a really solid scenario, one that is more than just a guy doing the robot.

This video = the best popping routine I ever did see.

I will try to find some routines/videos that aren't popping, I promise.

omg Meg, I totally agree with your definition of Style.

and here I was thinking you were going to be running stylin workshops...

Massive, massive mental elemant. I'd say for most people it's the largest part. Sure if you're a highly trained ballet dancer that's more of a physical awareness, but there's still a mental element. Have been reading a book on imagary for dance which talks a lot about how your mental state affects how you move. And how using imagary can change this.

Look at the way a wannabe gangsta walks. That might be more a consious decision, but also look at the way someone really arrogant walks, possibly not even realising it. Compare this to someone with really low self confidence. They don't get up in the morning and think, 'Today I'm gonna slouch lots and look at me feet so no one looks at me.'

I think it's partly to do with what you think looks good, and also whether you have the body control to make that happen. But it's a lot more about how you feel - if you're nervous and don't think you look good, then you probaby won't. Having said that, any physical training has a big impact too; people have often describe my movement as 'elegant' - that's certainly not something I personally feel, or even want, or is part of my personality but I'd assume it comes from gymnastics training.

People are naturally attracted to confident people (in a lot of cases anyway) so it makes sense that sometimes you might find someone really attractive until you see certain insecurities that come out with their movements - I know I have. Or how some musicians or performers get on stage and are suddenly the most attractive thing that ever existed...

I think style for the most part comes from what you think of yourself. Who you think you are.

I would say there is a large mental element, but it's not everything, not by a long way. You can see a really confident spinner hunching their back slightly on certain moves and it ruins their style.

For some people, if you have a history of movement arts, weather it's dance, martial arts, gymnastics, or high level sports, I think it shows in your movement. I don't know if it really can't. If you've done like ten years of making your body work in a certain way, then you have more physical awareness and control.

Confidence yes, plays a large role. And there's lots of interesting things about certain types of actor / butoh / suzuki training that can bring out different aspects of your body.

Yes...and maybe we need a real life academy of how do do things awesomely. I mean, I'd pay money to have someone who knows what they're talking about watch me spin and provide feedback on whether I look like a dork,,or not.

I think a BIG portion of things is practicing in front of mirrors or video cameras. Then YOU can look over what you did and take a critical eye to your own work. Decide if your back is straight enough, were you looking the right direction, was that move not as good in action as you though and so on.

^^^ I think thats an interesting point. Ever since I've been aware of the evolution of twirling, and especially the different 'movements' or schools of thought, I've tried to work out exactly what has been the main thing that I think characterises that school. Anyone who can remember the 'what is technical poi' threads know what I mean. For a while now, I've been characterising a lot of what has been going on as 'mirror movement' - ie moves/movement that you need to practise in a mirror to perfect - which leads to this highly geometric flat style of poi / staff / clubs.

I can understand the pursuit of this kind of movement, even if I personally feel a bit uncomfortable with the idea of staring at myself in the mirror for hours...

I guess there is an equity issue there tho, ie its extremely difficult to get good at mirror poi without having a large set of mirrors...yet another barrier that newbies need to get past before they can start feeling good about their poi...

I think mirrors are not the be all and end all... You have to look at them, which traps your head in one orientation... If you want to move / dance, that's never good. Mirrors are really hard to use for movement in some ways.

true!

I have had access to large studio mirrors and have been practicing heaps in front of them. So much so that i have become very comfortable improvising and using the image I see in the mirror.
The problem with this for me has been that I get lost when performing without them because I don't have the visual reference I am used to.

I am now in the process of retraining myself to get my awareness back into my body.

I think that vidoes are a much better way to watch yourself. It's somewhat more objective and you can watch AFTER you are done

they both have pros and cons. Mirrors are instant, you see what's happening, and we're all used to them, but then yes you only see from one angle and your head will always be pointing towards which ruins part of the routine I'm sure. Video can get any angle, but it isn't immediate feedback. I think BOTH are probably helpful.

As for a room full of mirrors, I'm gonna join my Local YMCA. I'd imagine similar institutions exist internationally though I'm not familiar. But THE Y will give me access to a good gym and a dance studio to practice in. Also, a gymnastics gym, I can practice flips and such. So perhaps consider joining gyms. Possibly a good resource.

I'd agree both are helpful, but IMO a poor substitute for real life feedback from someone who knows what they're talking about.

Mirrors are OK if you're just standing there trying to work out symmetry or timing, but I find the instant I try to move around, trying to keep my eyes on the mirror changes what I'm trying to do. There's something Quantum in there...wooooooo.

Video would probably be better. I've never tried it because I only just replaced my crappy old camera that would only take 30 second clips.

I think I've found this guy in Vancouver though...He teaches dance, he teaches poi, he owns a dance studio...So I'll make contact in the new year and see if he's up for a little critique work.

For some reason style seems to be an extremely difficult subject to broach IRL. Everybody tells me I'm "smooth" but if I ask where they think I could improve, I tend to get blank looks. I've put this down to people thinking more about these arts in terms of moves, rather than dance.

Foe some reason, i need an audience to really embrace that rock star show pony style that's necessary to be an entertainer. When spinning "privately" ( alone on in public ) I tend to feel rather stupid using that style.

[Side note] If you have an Eye-Toy on the PS2, one of the "play room" modes is a 10 second delay - the best of both worlds

^^^mmm durbs, I didnt realise such an app exists - does anyone know of one for Mac or Windows? I was thinking an excellent option would be to have a video projector linking a camera routed through a variable video delay...only requires a couple of grand worth of kit...

I'm sure it wouldnt be too hard to write such an app in Java...so that means it should already exist...right?

Can't you just use a laptop?