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LHC and the god particle

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#773832 - 08/09/06 09:05 PM LHC and the god particle
sagetree organic creation Registered: 07/05/06 Loc: earth	link to article Written by: from the article The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a powerful and impossibly complicated machine that will smash particles together at super-fast speeds in a bid to unlock the secrets of the Universe. Needless to say, new theories are gaining ground and discoveries at the LHC could lead physicists towards a unified theory to explain how the Universe works. "We are at a stage where the theorists do not know which direction to go in. The results from [our] experiment will determine which direction science takes," says Professor Virdee, who is based at Imperial College London, UK. "We don't always like theorists to tell us what we should find. Nature is much smarter than us. Written by: wikipedia The Higgs boson is a hypothetical massive scalar elementary particle predicted to exist by the Standard Model of particle physics. It is the only Standard Model particle not yet observed, but plays a key role in explaining the origins of the mass of other elementary particles, in particular the difference between the massless photon and the very heavy W and Z bosons. Elementary particle masses, and the differences between electromagnetism (caused by the photon) and the weak force (caused by the W and Z bosons), are critical to many aspects of the structure of microscopic (and hence macroscopic) matter; thus if it exists, the Higgs boson has an enormous effect on the world around us. As of 2006, no experiment has directly detected the existence of the Higgs boson, but there is some indirect evidence for it. The Higgs boson was first predicted in 1964 by the British physicist Peter Higgs, working from the ideas of Philip Anderson, and independently by others.
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#773833 - 08/09/06 09:58 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: sagetree]
ado-p Pirate Ninja Registered: 13/05/04 Loc: Galway/Ireland	Written by: By recreating the searing-hot conditions fractions of a second after the Big Bang, scientists hope to see new physics, discover the sought-after "God particle", uncover new dimensions and even generate mini-black holes. Black Holes.... great... I've always wanted one of those.. _________________________ Love is the law.
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#773834 - 09/09/06 05:37 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: ado-p]
MiG Self-Flagellation Expert Registered: 16/04/04 Loc: Bogged at CG	I read a short science fiction story once about something like this. There was an invisible bicycle, and a singularity. The guy ends up throwing the bike into the black hole, i think... _________________________ "beg beg grovel beg grovel" "master" --FSA "There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself" --Rougie
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#773835 - 09/09/06 06:56 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: MiG]
Groovy_Dream addict Registered: 26/05/05	Mini black holes eh? If i disappear into a singularity because some scientist stuffed up, i'm gonna be real pissed off.
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#773836 - 09/09/06 08:21 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: Groovy_Dream]
Mr_Chutney Tosser Registered: 18/04/03 Loc: Herefordshire	I listened to an interview with one of the chief scientists/ engineers yesterday on the way to work- it sounds fascinating. A good quote from that was when he was asked what it would be useful for and he replied that he didn't know, but that the knowledge would almost inevitably lead to some very excting prospects in the course of time; he then recalled what was said when researchers were looking into atomic structure and discovered the electron- they too were asked what the use of such a discovery would be, to which the response was "I don't know, but you'll be taxed for it in 20 years"
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#773837 - 09/09/06 08:47 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: Mr_Chutney]
_Poiboy_ bastard child of satan Registered: 12/01/04 Loc: Raanana, Israel	mini black holes? doesnt sound too promising. let's hope they test it around some politicians.
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#773838 - 10/09/06 06:12 AM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: _Poiboy_]
jeff(fake) Scientist of Fortune Registered: 15/04/05 Loc: Edinburgh	Mini-black holes are too small to swallow anything (so we think), so theoretically we're not at risk. You have to weigh up both sides here. It might be safe, and creating black holes is totally cool. Edited by jeff(fake) (10/09/06 06:22 AM) _________________________ According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
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#773839 - 10/09/06 11:50 AM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: jeff(fake)]
Doc Lightning HOP Mad Doctor Registered: 28/05/01 Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA	Not only are they too small to swallow anything, but due to Hawking radiation, they radiate off their excess mass in a teensy fraction of a second and evaporate. Yay for quantum mechanics! _________________________ -Mike )'( Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella "A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura
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#773840 - 10/09/06 12:00 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: Doc Lightning]
MiG Self-Flagellation Expert Registered: 16/04/04 Loc: Bogged at CG	I still reckon the best way to make a black hole would be to freeze something to absolute zero. With a complete cessation of molecular movement, by removing all heat energy, i reckon the particle would just collaps upon itself into a hyperdense thingy. But i'm a 'lectrician, not a quantum physicist. _________________________ "beg beg grovel beg grovel" "master" --FSA "There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself" --Rougie
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#773841 - 10/09/06 12:43 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: MiG]
Doc Lightning HOP Mad Doctor Registered: 28/05/01 Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA	Well, problem is that even at absolute zero (which you can't actually reach, so let's just say very close to absolute zero) the electrons still move. Electron motion in the lowest available orbital doesn't depend on temperature. And electron clouds around atoms still repel each-other regardless of temperature, so that wouldn't cause collapse. It would just cause a very cold solid. _________________________ -Mike )'( Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella "A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura
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#773842 - 10/09/06 09:33 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: Doc Lightning]
MiG Self-Flagellation Expert Registered: 16/04/04 Loc: Bogged at CG	i thought that the amount of electron movement was proportional to heat? That's why cold electrical stuff's better. _________________________ "beg beg grovel beg grovel" "master" --FSA "There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself" --Rougie
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#773843 - 11/09/06 02:48 AM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: MiG]
Doc Lightning HOP Mad Doctor Registered: 28/05/01 Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA	No, because the uncertainty principle dictates that the position and velocity of a particle cannot be exactly determined. Thus, if an electron were not moving one would know its position and velocity in violation of the uncertainty principle. For an electron in a 1s orbital around a nucleus, the uncertainty, no matter how low the temperature, is the 90% or 95% probability radius of the orbital. That is if I recall correctly. NYC might be able to explain better. _________________________ -Mike )'( Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella "A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura
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#773844 - 11/09/06 04:21 AM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: Doc Lightning]
Groovy_Dream addict Registered: 26/05/05	Doesn't zero kelvin mean NO energy at all, even kinetic energy of an electron? Even if we could predict that its velocity is zero, how does this violate the uncertainty principle? We still don't know its position, and any measurement to determine its position would introduce energy into the system.
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#773845 - 11/09/06 07:13 AM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: Groovy_Dream]
Doc Lightning HOP Mad Doctor Registered: 28/05/01 Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA	At this point I would defer to someone who has actually studied some physics other than reading books meant for the populace. _________________________ -Mike )'( Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella "A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura
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#773846 - 11/09/06 12:50 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: Doc Lightning]
Dentrassi ZORT! Registered: 09/04/03 Loc: Brisbane	Written by: Doesn't zero kelvin mean NO energy at all, even kinetic energy of an electron? well - since no-ones managed to reach absolute zero and it is quite possibly impossible - its all very hypthetical still. but lightning is correct - as the atom approaches absolute zero, the electrons pack into the lowest possible orbitals of electron probability - described to do with the 'Fermi' state i think (which is quite important to understanding conduction and a whole bunch of other stuff) but just because they are at the lowest possible energy level configuration of the atom, even at absolute zero, doesnt mean the electrons are without motion or entropy. good grief this is stretching back into my brain back about 4 years. to Psyrushs comment: to answer that would actually involve me unpacking my uni notes to remember, so ill sit in the same boat as Lightning and wait for someone else. jumps in lightnings boat & waits Edited by Dentrassi (11/09/06 12:55 PM) _________________________ "Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
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#773847 - 11/09/06 10:20 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: Dentrassi]
87wt2gxq7 veteran Registered: 12/04/05 Loc: Birmingham	As far as I remember, Doc is correct... At absolute zero, the electron (or any particle, really) will still have a residual amount of energy ("zero-point energy"), which is somewhat associated with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (or it just plops out of the time-independent Schrodinger equation when you solve a simple case. Depends on how you study QM, but as it's a self-consistent theory, you can start anywhere in QM and end up anywhere else...) As for the question of "doesn't absolute zero mean no kinetic energy and therefore no movement?", that is a statement that is true for the kinetic theory of gases. Kinetic theory is a purely classical theory and you can't extend its results into the quantum realm. Temperature, and absolute zero, does exist and is useful in QM, but it means different things once you zoom in on cold, single electrons. In QM, 'high' temperatures are proportional to 'kinetic energy' (which itself is complicated in QM), but at low temperatures the quantumness is revealed in the form of this residual zero-point energy of cold electrons. Just one of the ways in which QM is so damn wacky.
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#773848 - 15/09/06 11:50 PM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: 87wt2gxq7]
linden rathen Carpal \'Tunnel Registered: 02/03/05 Loc: London, UK	absolute zero there is no kinetic movement of the atom as a whole - there is still the internal energy inherant to the bonds with in the atom (i do physics me ) as for mini black holes as Doc says they would radiate their energy off in a fraction of a second anyway the real fun is with super fluids and the BEC (bose-einstien condensate) yay for atomic 'lasers' _________________________ back
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#773849 - 17/09/06 01:24 AM Re: LHC and the god particle [Re: linden rathen]
87wt2gxq7 veteran Registered: 12/04/05 Loc: Birmingham	Written by: linden rathen absolute zero there is no kinetic movement of the atom as a whole what about in a frame of reference that's moving with respect to the atom, hey?
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