Does anyone actually think the PATRIOT act is at all good for the US?

Title says it all basically. I'm just wondering if there's anyone out there with illusions that there's something about this which isn't part of a downward spiral. Particuarly as it seems that it won't ever be expiring....

I believe that it will reduce terrorist attacks by 0.00001%. And it will reduce civil rights by about 30%.

Cost>>>benefit

Being a resident of the UK (aka America's Poodle) can someone briefly explain what the Patriot Act entails? I have a sneaking suspicion that it sounds like it's in violation of international law somehow...

Ha!, as if the U.S. ever cared about an international law.

The Patriot Act is truly an attack on civil liberties. It completely circumvents privacy and due process all in the name of fear mongering. Some of the provisions of the act will sunset some time this year and many of the more radical ideas are now gaining serious opposition.

Basically it lets the government search and seize people or property without due process of law (trial\jury). They don't have to tell you why they are doing it and they can hold or even torture you indefinitely. Not that the U.S. hasn't done these types of things before the act, this just makes it easier for them.

Another frightening turn the act has taken recently is to be used by law enforcement agencies to battle drugs. That makes every person in the U.S. a target if only indirectly.

I don't see the act as the problem so much as the ignorant people that let like this continue.

the patriot act is designed to insure that all TRUE patriots (ie those that would oppose the current administration on the basis that it is truely unamerican) can do pretty much nothing to protect the integrity of the United States and its constitution.

... Am I the only one who wouldn't protest if we nuked America? I'm sure that there are plenty of nice Americans, but something HAS to be done about the current goverments policies, on International relations, Global Warming and Environment change and just about everything else. I was shocked to discover that the average EU home produces about 500 kilograms of waste a year. I was MORE shocked that the average AMERICAN home produces 1.5 METRIC TONNES of waste per year. TRIPLE than in the EU. Why can't anyone see that RESOURCES ARE NOT INFINITE???

As opposed to nuking america, start an assaian group and get rid of about the top 50 people in power, if you can figure out who they are. We know it starts with Cheney. But they wouldn't tell us who else belongs to the shadow govt.... no, I'm not making this up. Fall 2001 they told us there was a shadow govt, which, supposedly, is "poised to take over in the event of national crisis"

Moving on... I think Vanize's description is probably the best, but if you want some more concrete information, it basically removes govt oversight with regards to secret subpoenas, wiretapping and some other stuff.... secret subpoenas means if you tell anyone the subpoena exists you get thrown in jail for a year.

Also, several things changed by the patriot act are no longer accesible in their original form, so its hard to tell what the laws used to say.

Some highlights of the ACT:
section 106: allows the president to confiscate pretty much anything he wants and use it anyway he wants as long as he claims that its to fight terrorism. Also states that there is no possibility of judicial review.
section 202: specifically states wiretapping and survellience are appropriate for computer fruad/ abuse cases. (i.e. the RIAA).
section 212: Prevents businesses and libraries from telling us their records were subpoenad (sp). (among other things) Some libraries have destroyed their records.
*you will be fined at least $10,000 for violating this act (primarily for lanlords, company workers who are supposed to hand over records, etc).
sec 412: mandatory detention of terrorist suspects....
sec 427: reinstates blood contamination (which was ruled not to be tha case in the first ten amendments......)

or if you are depressed, bored, or need a poli sci project, read the act at this site or anywhere else you can find the full text.

*Jaw drops*

This is insane. Isn't the whole point of having the right to bear arms in the US constitution that you can overthrow the government? This effectively blocks that option. Isn't that like one of the founding principles of America?

The Patriot Act is completely Un-American and in direct defiance of everything our forefathers stood for, and what our soldiers supposedly fight for (the "American" way of life).

Well as David Craig Simpson pointed out, the founding fathers were liberals. But that doesn't mean anyone in power today likes liberals anymore than anyone in power then did...

P.S. if you follow the link, check out his shirt!

Also: My linking does not mean I nesc. agree with everything DC Simpson says, or am advocating any particular viewpoint other than the one mentioned above, but there's some good stuff on there. And the shirts awesome.

-Kyri

The only one who understands it and thinks it's a good idea is the guy who wrote it. Even the crazy right-wing congressmen balked when they found out what they had voted for.

You mean they didn't when they voted? That's screwed up.

Although I'd like a bit of clarification on Pele's statement:

"what our soldiers supposedly fight for (the "American" way of life). "

But how does fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Terrorism in general relate to the protection of the American way of life? I mean, apart from the attacks on the Twin Towers, there haven't been any more strikes vs the US.

And I am aware of the fact that the majority of the military does NOT want to be fighting anywhere at all, it's the politicians who are forcing the issues and giving the orders. One of the problems with giving the leader of the government absolute control over the military methinks.

Oh, and I know I'm about to get shot for this, but why exactly is the Amercan way of life so good? I mean, is this the way of life that creates 3 times as much waste as any other nation? And has a stranglehold on dozens of impoverished countries economies? I appreciate Democracy (which the Patriot Act seems to be reducing) and all that, but England seems to be able to do it without telling the entire world to effectively F*ck off.

Please note that this is not a personal attack on Pele or any other American on this site or elsewhere, I'm perfectly sure you're all wonderfully nice people. I just want to know what people mean when they state "The American Way of Life". What I mean is mentioned above...

Does anyone actually think the PATRIOT act is at all good for the US?

NO!


Does anyone actually think the PATRIOT act is at all good for the rest of the world?


NO!

There is a reason the statement "American way of life" is in quotations...because it is something people define differently but it seems to be thrown out as an excuse all too often.

Though I will say, we have more immagrants every year, legal and illegal, than we can handle because evidentally some people really do think that life is better here.

What I meant is that the soldiers are *supposedly* fighting to "protect" american democracy (right, this has nothing to do with the oil industry ) while our government is passing policies which resrict it.

Horrified
I offer myself , and all my single Canadian girlfriends up to any single American men who would like to marry, change citizenship, and get the hell out of there.

Canada may not be perfect, but it certainly is a lot better... We are trying to resist the extraordinary pressure and influence the USA places on many aspects of our laws and culture --with varying degrees of success.

We are at least investigating why our government allowed one of our citizens to be sent to Syria for " questionning " by torture, as a "suspected terrorist". From what I have read, no charges were ever laid. No evidence ever produced. He was held and tortured for ten months. He was shipped there by the US , picked up at an airport stopover in the USA, on his way home to Canada. He is a Syrian born Canadian I think( dual citizenship) .

The USA did not intitially consult with Canada before detaining him and sending him to Syrian prison. After our government found out, they waited far to long to try to get him back.Our laws do not allow us to send someone to a country that uses torture. It was only with much public pressure ( and some shadow govt dealing ) that he was eventually returned to his family in Canada.

Trying to find out what actually happened is difficult because so much of it has been deemed "Issues of National Security", and blocked from the public.

I think kidnapping Canadians without charging them and sending them to a place where they will be tortured, is the real issue of national security.

We can not feel secure as a people if we allow this sort of thing to continue.

If we had the Patriot Act we would never find out anything, or even be allowed to try to look at these issues...

Apparently there are hundreds of people being held in the US under so called suspicion of terrorism that have not been charged or tried in public courts, or even in military ones. They have not been able to see family or even lawyers. It has been years now...

They deserve a proper hearing to determine innocence or guilt. The goverment and military can not be trusted in this matter.

Who will set them free?

What a nightmare.


Andrea

**Oh, some of my girlfriends have offered to marry American women too, since lesbian and gay marriages are legal in Canada...

Sorry NYC, that must be really annoying and hurtful to deal with. I dont think anyone actually wants to kill you, obviously,-- but we should think about how we can better express our frustration , and do so preferably in a nonviolent way!

I am glad you are working within your country for positive change. I really dislike the USA's policies, foreign and otherwise, but love many of the people- hence the offer of marriage ;-)

I do realize you can't dismiss a whole country of people on the basis of some of their governments choices... It mystifies me sometimes, how your government gets elected ?

governments get elected b/c alot of ppl arent as clued up and non-paranoid as nyc. alot of americans, (in my experience), believe that bush and his administration are doin the right thing. ofcourse the percentages of ppl who believe that iraq was justified changes alot, there was enough support for it at the time to go ahead. times change and during election years, things change drastically. ppl have to vote and often the choices aint that good. i know here in NZ, we can vote for 5 or 6 different political parties and i dont really want to have to vote for any of them.
i think the first move should be to change some of the misgiuded self-perceptions that some (by no means not all) americans have. dont get me wrong tho, i dont want to get on the anti-american band wagon, there are some great americans. but sadly the rest of the world normally only sees the ignorant and misguided ones...just b/c they in government.

Sorry, but it grates when people read the start of your post and then ignore the rest of it. NOTE WHAT I SAID AT THE BOTTOM!!!!

"Please note that this is not a personal attack on Pele or any other American on this site or elsewhere, I'm perfectly sure you're all wonderfully nice people."

NYC I've heard you complain before about people twisting your posts and missing important bits out so that you lose the context and meaning. Don't do it to me please.

Yes, my rant was directed at the government NOT any random American who reads my post and is suddenly paranoid that I'm about to kill them. Yes, I know that it was an imprecise way to say it, but hopefully you have the common sense to realise that it WASN'T serious? I hate the very idea of Nukes (look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki) but jeez, stay calm man! WTF happened to having a sense of humour? Or aren't we allowed to exaggerate in these forums?

Oh, and FRD, who cares about the economy if global warming costs us the planet? Cos according to some of America's scientists it isn't even happening. Whatever.

I do sound a bit strong in my above words. I guess that's just how I write.

I'm not actually upset. I just think people don't realize how natural and acceptable hate is when it's directed at America. The same hate would be inappropriate when directed elsewhere.

Especially ironic when it's in contrast to the hate and fear associated with something like the Patriot Act. I find it hypocritical when people often accuse American citizens of things that they themselves are doing...

"Americans all generalize too much!"

{well, you are from new york city...}

{JOKE JOKE JOKE!!!}

<vanize runs for cover>

Ok, *puts hands up* I admit that it was probably not a sensible thing to say, when the inflections and facial expression weren't there. My fault, and I retract the statement as well as apologising to anyone to whom I inadvertently caused offence. I was wrong to say it on a forum, and I admit that.

However, I would argue that America (as a non-personal whole) is currently doing the most ecological damage to the planet, is ignoring International and Human Rights, and is basically telling the whole world where to stick it, because America is the only super-power left and the current administration seems to think that this gives them the right to dictate terms to the entire world. Please note that I accept there is a difference between a government and it's people. (What, you think I agree with anything Tony Blair is doing?)

Unless Jews are REAL good at playing their cards close to their chest, I can't see them doing that much damage...

I think one of the most underused resources in the planet right now is the American Minority.

59 MILLION people voted against Bush. That number is larger than the number of people that VOTED in the recent UK election.

According to a recent polls, there are more people in the US who 'disapprove of George Bush' then the number of people who LIVE in the UK.

Obviously this is because the US is such a large country.

But I sometimes think that this HUGE minority (slowly becoming majority until our next terrorist attack) is totally underused.

One of the largest and most powerful populations of weathy, educated, intelligent, liberal people in the WORLD is right now the Minority in the United States.

I think that one of Europe's bigger mistakes is to ignore the fact that they've got an ally WITHIN this country. It's easier to hate "America", but it's lazy. If Europeans really want to CHANGE the planet (environmentally, politically, socially), these are the people they NEED as allies. We cannot afford to alienate or attack this extremely powerful group.

Because every time they get attacked... they get a little more conservative and care a little less.

And THIS is what upsets me about AntiAmerican sentiment. It's totally counter productive.

Excellent post, NYC. I completely agree. Here's to our undervalued transatlantic liberal cousins.

And in terms of America's many supposed wrongs, let's not forget that the UK has its fair share of problems too - our environmental record, involvement in the Iraq war, fairness of electoral system aren't exactly much to shout about either. And while we have no equivalent Patriot Act, we also have our share of civil rights-infringing policies in the works. For all the Brits who think that in these regards, we are somehow superior to America, I cite Bill Bailey's Part Troll tour, where he described America as the bully of the world, going round to governments saying 'Gi'us your sweets', and Britains as the kid who pops round the bully's leg shaking his fist and going 'Yeah'.

You're all wrong